Is it?
So did you. I am saying this number is artificially lowered by the societal hysteria against heroin.
-
DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
Top DEA agent won't admit heroin more harmful than marijuana
- Thread starter Unbreakable
- Start date
Is it?
So did you. I am saying this number is artificially lowered by the societal hysteria against heroin.
poledriver
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 11,543
Top DEA agent won’t admit heroin more harmful than marijuana
That is intriguing, I've never heard of someone doing it. I'm saying that someone might be taking even two and a half milligrams of xanax per day and experience excessive cognitive dysfunction, despite it being a maintenance dose and barely relieving anxiety.
People who use opiates under a doctor's orders for pain are a lot less likely to abuse their prescription than someone who has free, self-guided access to the drug.
Don't insult me for relating my experience of alcohol vs (benign) opiate withdrawal. I found something likable about alcohol withdrawal, and nothing likeable about opiate withdrawal, so accept it without attack. Its not laughable at all. GABA breaks down social barriers. It accelerates the process and general gives an incentive to be sociable. Many say that alcohol isn't even recreational when not consumed around others; I rest my case.
Alcohol has endorphin activity, but not near that of opiates haha; opiate addicts are practically known for not liking alcohol, so its hardly that influential of a mechanism.
Opiate withdrawal can have PAWS just as severe.
I feel that it should be accessible to the general population (albeit with restrictions), so I don't think our positions vary that much. What you fail to realize is that your prediction is a prediction.
My belief is that heroin has the potential to destroy society, and that's how it will stay.
We definitely are off-topic.
poledriver
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 11,543
yeah, if heroin was legal like alcohol and sold thru pharmacies with a doctors prescription and easy to get pure, set doses, it may not be like it is or has been with the stigma of people stealing to get fixes and OD'ing as much. Kinda like xanax, you get a script, you get it filled (money goes to the doctors, the legal makers of it, the pharmacy, the government etc), you go home and you use a bit here and there, till you run out and the process starts again.
It's not something i really wanna try either way anyway. I dislike injecting stuff and im not sure about smoking it, maybe i would try a small amount that way, i dunno, can you eat it?
It's not something i really wanna try either way anyway. I dislike injecting stuff and im not sure about smoking it, maybe i would try a small amount that way, i dunno, can you eat it?
Last edited:
Crankinit
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2007
- Messages
- 6,175
I have read your posts, though I could probably have better spent my time, but the fact you just resort to childish name calling whenever someone calls you out on the ridiculous BS you're spewing is very telling. You haven't taken the time to respond to anyone who actually raises a half way rational counter to your points, instead just rambling on deliriously about how harmless alcohol is and how opiates are straight from the pits of hell sent to lure society into the apocalypse.
Oh, and if I was the scum of society I would have already sold my computer for drugs
Such programs have been undertaken in several countries and unanimously show that the addict generally returns to general society, even after years of highly dysfunctional street living, when supplied with a regulated source of heroin. They get jobs, start families, pay their rent and taxes like everyone else. It's the illicit nature of the heroin market that forces addicts into the criminal lifestyle, anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is flying blind in the face of countless scientific studies.
I think this morons point is because he worked a part time job at one point in his life and paid a few dollars in tax, no addicts should be given of his hard earned tax cents.
He's either an obvious troll, or someone who was born to parents who should not have been legally allowed to have children.
RobotRipping
Bluelighter
@Ho-Chi-Minh: yes you're quite experienced and knowledgeable about opiates with your monster codeine habit and likewise experienced with GABAergics with your use of alcohol. Try quitting a strong opiate or actually quitting a real benzo habit before making a judgment that one is benevolent or better than the other for society. You never provided me with a source saying that recreational doses of opiates cause a loss of oxygen in the brain of the user, resulting in brain damage. I want to see your source, bozo.
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
I feel that this thread has run its course.
Too much bad-mouthing going on.
So, I will close it now.
However, if anyone feels that they have something substantial to contribute, such as Ho-chi Minh wanting to provide "a source saying that recreational doses of opiates cause a loss of oxygen in the brain of the user, resulting in brain damage", please PM me and I will reopen it.
Peace
Too much bad-mouthing going on.
So, I will close it now.
However, if anyone feels that they have something substantial to contribute, such as Ho-chi Minh wanting to provide "a source saying that recreational doses of opiates cause a loss of oxygen in the brain of the user, resulting in brain damage", please PM me and I will reopen it.
Peace
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
Yea. I'm not going to call anymore names, nor do I care so much about having the last word, but I'd like to reiterate that I'm not flaming, just presenting my viewpoint, albeit with some passion (I'll be the first to admit); if anyone truly cares about understanding where I'm coming from then I'm all too happy to answer questions in a straightforward, academic, and respectful manner; as it is, I don't think very much at all can be accomplished with all of these ad hominem attacks. I'd furthermore like to apologize for any dismay I may have caused. Peace.
Very interesting and surprising for that matter. Doesn't change my viewpoint at all but it makes me glad that I never sought out doses that caused nodding. Luckily, I don't really have to worry too much bc I'm not an IV user and bc sub takes so long to fully kick in ( about 3 hours for me) that short term tolerance should kick in and lower respiratory depression especially with a very stable dose. It looks like methadone, a full agonist, didn't cause as many problems presumably bc it crosses the BBB slowly. Cigarettes, alcohol, benzos, methamphetamines, ecstasy, and most drugs do cause brain damage often directly but this should give people another thing to think about.
On another note, everyone please keep it friendly including myself. I understand the frustration thats occurring in this thread but insulting each other isn't very productive. Ho-chi Minh's viewpoint is at least more moderate than most of society's. I take great pride in the fact that people who learned of my addictions were surprised bc of how much I defied stereotypes of the evil addict. It's up to us to be better than the average person and that adds credibility to our positions.
RobotRipping
Bluelighter
i definitely appreciate the link to the source. I'd like to see those studies replicated with a larger sample size. From what i read it doesn't even necessarily have to do with nodding, that even moderate or maintenance doses cause the same issue. Not something i like to hear as I am a daily user with no intention of quitting but useful to know the possibilities. Thanks for bringing it up.
I would like to add that anxiety and depression also can cause brain damage. My cognition has improved from long term suboxone. Benzos however produced insidious decay in my ability to solve problems and decreased my short term memory, general cognition, verbosity, and produced many other aberrations in mental state. Suboxone has dramatically reduced my depression and anxiety which has resulted in much greater mental clarity than my baseline state. I could barely go outside from anxiety before much less work productively or live life without great difficulty. Shopping for clothes was an unbearably hellish time for me with body dysmorphic disorder, agoraphobia, and social phobia. I would be so tense that I wouldn't even be able to select a certain item and that was if I was lucky to venture that far out into the world. I don't know how I held a job working with the public. Ironically many customers were concerned I was a drug addict back then bc of how violently I would shake and how disabled mentally I was before I ever ingested my first drug besides tobacco. Now taking an opiate, nobody questions whether I take drugs. It's funny how that worked out.
Last edited:
ro4eva
Bluelighter
Ever since I've been on MMT (Methadone Maintenance Therapy) I've begun to snore when sleeping and loudly. I never used to snore (I had my tonsils and nasal polyps taken out at 8 years of age), so I find it disturbing that I'm snoring and I'm worried. I recently went to a sleep clinic and had testing done and I hope that when I receive the results it will give me peace of mind.
With that in mind, I also have my opinion to give on the topic of heroin vs marijuana and which one is more acutely dangerous or risky, harmful or damaging (long term) and - in the end - more likely to cause the most issues. However, I want to do this in a way that doesn't include the consequences of an antiquated, draconian drug policy which has left most IV smack users at risk of HIV and other diseases caused by sharing needles. Secondly, I want to make it clear that I speak of pure heroin and not any cutting agents and/or adulterants commonly found in street dope. Thirdly, the weed is also "pure."
Just bare with me please:
Risk - I think we can all agree that - because of the way opiates/opioids work - you're taking a bigger risk if your doc is smack. Especially if you're a poly drug user with a particular interest in downers (benzos, booze, barbs, etc.) and even uppers considering a speedball tends to overwhelm many a user's vital organs.
Harm (Long Term) - I'll say it right away: I think weed is more damaging to the body (again, in a world without needle sharing and where the user can get pure Heroin - such as Switzerland). If you're going to throw the needle sharing diseases and impure smack, obviously it would be the opposite (sadly, this is the situation in the majority of the world).
For the record, I'm a big proponent for the decriminalization and/or legalization of marijuana, but I hardly believe it's harmless (and - if it isn't obvious - this ties into why I picked heroin when it came to long term harm). Yes, no one has overdosed on it, but research has shown it to be a risk factor for (among other things) testicular cancer, impaired fetal growth/development, schizophrenia, bullous lung disease, brain function changes, dependence/withdrawal and decrement neurocognitive effects. Granted, many - if not all - of these risk factors may be small, however, they're still there.
I do know that long term opiate use can cause (among other things) gingivitis, decreased testosterone levels in men, a weakened immune system, chronic constipation and dependency/tolerance because I've experienced all these things first hand (especially since starting methadone maintenance).
So which one do I think would cause more issues in the long run? Again, that depends if we're including the needle sharing and impure smack or not, but there's one other thing to consider and that would be dependency and dealing with that in a world in which it's illegal to grow/harvest your own opium (poppy). If I had an unlimited supply, as well as no risk of the aforementioned needle sharing/impurities, I'd go with smack. However, considering the reality of the situation of this two-faced democracy we call freedom and the land of opportunity -- I would stick with weed (panic attack or not).
Lastly, I wanna make it clear that I'm not trying to villify pot smoking. I used to smoke it daily for roughly 5 years. I stopped because I began to get some really nasty panic attacks. Do I think the pot had something to do with it? Yes. Does it change my opinion about whether pot should be legalized? No. In contrast to what I wrote above, marijuana is a godsend to (for example) cancer patients on chemo who can't stomach anything.
Some sources about risks related with smoking mary since I figured someone might wanna read into my opinion (just an opinion of another insignificant and in some ways - admittedly - a foolish person you'll most likely never meet) :
Testicular Cancer risk linked to marijuana smoking - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/138372.php
Marijuana use impairs fetal growth - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2784193
Marijuana use is associated with an increased risk of developing schizophrenia - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC135490/
Bullous Lung Disease due to marijuana use - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1843.2007.01186.x/abstract
Brain function changes due to early marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10772599
Withdrawal symptoms from chronic marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11127420
Dose-related neurocognitive effects of marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12427880
With that in mind, I also have my opinion to give on the topic of heroin vs marijuana and which one is more acutely dangerous or risky, harmful or damaging (long term) and - in the end - more likely to cause the most issues. However, I want to do this in a way that doesn't include the consequences of an antiquated, draconian drug policy which has left most IV smack users at risk of HIV and other diseases caused by sharing needles. Secondly, I want to make it clear that I speak of pure heroin and not any cutting agents and/or adulterants commonly found in street dope. Thirdly, the weed is also "pure."
Just bare with me please:
Risk - I think we can all agree that - because of the way opiates/opioids work - you're taking a bigger risk if your doc is smack. Especially if you're a poly drug user with a particular interest in downers (benzos, booze, barbs, etc.) and even uppers considering a speedball tends to overwhelm many a user's vital organs.
Harm (Long Term) - I'll say it right away: I think weed is more damaging to the body (again, in a world without needle sharing and where the user can get pure Heroin - such as Switzerland). If you're going to throw the needle sharing diseases and impure smack, obviously it would be the opposite (sadly, this is the situation in the majority of the world).
For the record, I'm a big proponent for the decriminalization and/or legalization of marijuana, but I hardly believe it's harmless (and - if it isn't obvious - this ties into why I picked heroin when it came to long term harm). Yes, no one has overdosed on it, but research has shown it to be a risk factor for (among other things) testicular cancer, impaired fetal growth/development, schizophrenia, bullous lung disease, brain function changes, dependence/withdrawal and decrement neurocognitive effects. Granted, many - if not all - of these risk factors may be small, however, they're still there.
I do know that long term opiate use can cause (among other things) gingivitis, decreased testosterone levels in men, a weakened immune system, chronic constipation and dependency/tolerance because I've experienced all these things first hand (especially since starting methadone maintenance).
So which one do I think would cause more issues in the long run? Again, that depends if we're including the needle sharing and impure smack or not, but there's one other thing to consider and that would be dependency and dealing with that in a world in which it's illegal to grow/harvest your own opium (poppy). If I had an unlimited supply, as well as no risk of the aforementioned needle sharing/impurities, I'd go with smack. However, considering the reality of the situation of this two-faced democracy we call freedom and the land of opportunity -- I would stick with weed (panic attack or not).
Lastly, I wanna make it clear that I'm not trying to villify pot smoking. I used to smoke it daily for roughly 5 years. I stopped because I began to get some really nasty panic attacks. Do I think the pot had something to do with it? Yes. Does it change my opinion about whether pot should be legalized? No. In contrast to what I wrote above, marijuana is a godsend to (for example) cancer patients on chemo who can't stomach anything.
Some sources about risks related with smoking mary since I figured someone might wanna read into my opinion (just an opinion of another insignificant and in some ways - admittedly - a foolish person you'll most likely never meet) :
Testicular Cancer risk linked to marijuana smoking - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/138372.php
Marijuana use impairs fetal growth - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2784193
Marijuana use is associated with an increased risk of developing schizophrenia - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC135490/
Bullous Lung Disease due to marijuana use - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1843.2007.01186.x/abstract
Brain function changes due to early marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10772599
Withdrawal symptoms from chronic marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11127420
Dose-related neurocognitive effects of marijuana use - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12427880
Last edited:
poledriver
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 11,543
5 of those 7 links are from a Government site.
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
Yes, but they are abstracts of real scientific research.
Possibly chosen in an unfair / slanted way to publish on the site?
The problem I had was not knowing enough from the abstracts.
For example, I looked at the one on brain function changes and age of first cannabis use. But it didn't say anything about how many subjects they had or the statistics they used (or how robust the trends were). (It was only an abstract, of course.)
It also found that subjects who started smoking cannabis earlier had smaller brains (and less grey matter and more white matter) and smaller bodies, but that they had significantly higher global cerebral blood flow. (Isn't that part, at least, good?)
I appreciate this quality of evidence, but I wish I could know more about it (from better access and more background understanding).
RobotRipping
Bluelighter
great point. I have had very similar debilitating anxiety (couldn't go to the store, use the phone or work), also massive cognitive issues with benzos and now with opiates have been anxiety and depression free since starting. I'd argue that the stress, anxiety and depression was certainly worse for me mentally and physically than any damage opiates would cause. My quality of life and state of mind have also dramatically improved since i quit smoking cannabis.
Thanks. I'm not sure what your benzo experiences entailed but for me they were about the most awful drug class that i ever encountered. Clonazepam has a similar half-life to sub but within 4-5 hours after dosing i would notice the first signs of trouble: slightly sweaty hands, anxiety, and a slight confused buzzing sensation. It would slowly or not so slowly, depending on whether your viewpoint is external or not, progress to paranoia, psychotic anxiety, visceral and surface shakiness and tension that prevented fine movements and general movement we take for granted, stomach upset, hypochondria, complete loss of executive decision making, profuse sweating that made it look like I just got out of the shower, pure unadulterated fear, and if I was coherent enough a strong fear of death. I was originally prescribed benzos for anxiety, eventually they brought me to a depth of hell I never imagined possible. They are very seductive for someone with anxiety. I would go as far to say that initially they inhibit the anxiety response with more precision than even opiates. Tolerance to them builds dramatically however more so than opiates. I eventually went through my prescription fairly quickly and bought more on the street. I redosed often bc it seemed to be the only thing that would make me feel better however transiently. Getting caught doing that was just another horrific fear. I don't think highly of the way prisons treat drug abusers. My number one fear was being locked up with no anticonvulsants or any life saving intervention and dying in a situation that's already horrible in itself. Despite all that I've been through, I'm convinced some people could benefit from them. I was just reading a post by paranoid android that described their beneficial effects. People should have a wider variety of means to deal with their anxiety and depression than what's available. I feel very strongly about that.
I've made a huge amount of healthier decisions being legally given a strong opiate. I eat healthier, take far less drugs, exercise, build meaningful social relationships, and make life propelling decisions. That is why I don't think endorphins entirely represent or are solely responsible for feeling fulfilled. If someone saw the difference it made in my life, they would be a fool to think I would be better off without an opiate.
When I said I got along fine on benzos before, I wasn't very specific. They did greatly impair me on all cognitive measures but it wasn't enough to prevent me from keeping my job or keep up with general necessities. I also used to abuse alcohol as a means to obliterate my depression and general anxiety however temporarily. It was recreational to me by itself and I think other people share that experience. Alcohol was nowhere near adequate enough to overcome my social anxiety and that's why I used it alone. I felt physically drained during that time period and like i was being poisoned but the temporary escape was hard to resist. I got super high on benzos at home where I had no responsibilities and i used alcohol at home where I had no responsibilities. Eventually either one of them is bound to expand to the rest of your life especially with tolerance and dependence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6284787
http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/32394/InTech-_beta_endorphin_and_alcoholism.pdf
I think endorphins play a larger role in alcohol abuse than you think. Suboxone completely negates the pleasurable effects of alcohol for me probably due to a similar mechanism as to opiates by blocking endorphin effects. Yes, opiate users use less alcohol, that's not a bad thing. A long acting opiate might just be the best possible thing for an alcoholic by replacing a less efficient endorphin system modulator. The main thing I that I would critique your posts on is that you downplay alcohol's negative effects as much as possible. I'm not trying to be a dick here but I would like to you to recognize that alcohol is a very bad thing for some people and that maybe in some cases opiates are better for them as is my case. My hypothesis may be a hypothesis but if opiates were set to destroy society that would've happened long ago before they were illegal. The opium poppy has been around for a long time.
Last edited:
weekday warrior
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2012
- Messages
- 141
..were back to the days of reefer madness-esque thinking. In my highschool health class they said "marijuana causes HIV because you might have sex on weed when you wouldnt if not under the influence" this was in the health book!