RobotRipping
Bluelighter
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DPMC Moderators: tryptakid
Top DEA agent won't admit heroin more harmful than marijuana
- Thread starter Unbreakable
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SerotonergicHaze
Bluelighter
The real questions here are "Is Marijuana more dangerous than Alcohol or Tobacco?" or "Is the damage to the community stemming from the use of Marijuana (and all the other CDs) greater than the harm caused by imprisoning and ostracizing huge chunks of society at a scale not seen in any other "free" country"
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
"eventually stop or use more frequently" seems to be a real contradiction.
Do you mean that they will either stop or lose control, but can't maintain balance of usage?
Lots of weed smokers go nuts in college after smoking once a month in high school.
Yep, we gotcha on that one.
That I what I called "danger" earlier.
Very interesting point, and one that I hand't considered.
But I don't think that we are really arguing about whether heroin use is dangerous.
Maybe we can all agree that it is dangerous, but would be less so if it were regulated.
As for whether it is more harmful than cannabis, I haven't seen any argument or data that make me believe so.
YES!%)
And more
"Is regulated, pharmaceutical heroin safer to have disbursed widespread in our society than unregulated, cut heroin?"
"Must we allow people to use drugs - even scary things like heroin - if we claim to support human liberty, and if we (finally) realize that people simply are going to get high, whether it is legal or not?"
I didn't glaze over the hypoxia induced brain damage portion of your post. In fact, I acknowledged it's a risk. I never once in my life injected filth not fit for oral consumption into my veins but many people do everyday. Look at russia and the clandestine chemistry that produced necrosis inducing krockodil and people still inject that shit. I'm not saying that lifestyle is safe in any way. I'm merely saying how much the risks could be reduced by legal regulated distribution. I would rather see people who choose that life be able to go get their fix in a much safer environment. In a place which has cleanly produced heroin, clean injection equipment, large amount of naloxone stockpiles, and oversight to ensure their safety. I just don't believe that legalization would cause a substantial portion of the population to initiate heroin usage. That seems too ridiculous to be considered a risk. A large amount of ODs arise from two circumstances, unknown quality and people injecting too much after WD induced tolerance reduction. Both of those would be ameliorated by legalization. I agree with you 100 percent that it's not safe as it is now but it can be made considerably safer.
I don't really think you've ever been through true GABAergic WD. I hid in the attic bc I believed a neo-fascist regime had taken over and that I was in perilous danger. I've never experienced more pure suffering in my life, badass pleasure and stimulation is not what most people would describe their experience as. Go look at benzo forums and see how many people are feeling fantastic from the excessive excitatory neurotransmission. You keep hammering in on opiate OD risks so I'm going to hone in on the fact that GABAergic WD can kill you far easier than opiate WD. That fact alone should make you say the jury's not out on which is worse. You're already terrified but the fact that you can die brings it to a whole new level. GABAergics lowered my inhibitions and caused far greater compulsions to re-dose and pursue extremely risky behavior related to drugs. Opiates don't rob my ability to think rationally.
I think the opioid system is a viable target for future antidepressants. I'm not convinced that evolution has completely perfected us humans. What about schizophrenia, bipolar disease, autism, and epilepsy? among many others. Maybe most people have finely tuned endorphin systems but I truly believe some do not. I always took every precaution in the world by selecting pharmacueticals with known dosages, never taking reckless recreational doses, and used the safest ROA. At one point I wanted a nardil prescription which is far more risky than a stable low dose of legally provided suboxone. Sadly, I've been one of the lucky ones though. Some people are so desperate they resort to horrible risks and I don't think that behavior is going to stop. I should say something about illegal drugs providing guaranteed income for dangerous organizations which can also harm drug naive people. Bluelight espouses a harm reduction policy and the ultimate goal should be to eventually see those harm reduction practices widely spread and accepted.
you took the words right out my mouth.
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Crankinit
Bluelighter
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Yeah, it works wonderfully for all those people who die in drunk driving accidents, or in alcohol-induced violence or sexual assault. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Jesus dude, the extent to which you put alcohol on a pedestal is mindblowing. I'm genuinely trying to figure out whether you're serious or not.
Your logic is off. I said that the jury is out as to whether opiate/opiod withdrawal or GABAergic withdrawal is worse, not which has a higher risk of death in withdrawal; they are associated, but not the same. If the lifestyle is not safe in any way then how could it possibly compare to drinking or smoking within reason?
My aforementioned point is that there are too many factors for even statisticians and doctors to predict accurately what will happen if heroin is legalized.
Opiates don't rob you of your ability to think rationally while high on them, maybe, but they will make you just about kill for them once they have you in their clever grip; the allure of GABAergics is simply not so sophisticated because one can't usually go on with their life as usual while smashed.
I never said evolution perfected us. I said the endorphin system, if any part of the brain, seems most likely to have been perfected.
I'm saying that the lifestyle isn't safe in any way bc of the illicit nature which leads people to inject crud into their veins and not have access to live saving interventions like naloxone under supervised injection. It would have to be regulated if legal but it would be a much safer alternative and one that most addicts would prefer. It's nice you removed an important portion of my post in the quote. I'm living proof that opiates can be used safely mainly bc I use stable doses that are pure and virtually harmless in the way I use them. You must of had problems with opiates in the past and I haven't. Likewise I have a lot of problems with GABAergics and you don't. Just bc you had a problem with opiates doesn't mean everybody should be denied them. Just as my problems with benzos don't mean everyone should be denied them. It should be up to the individual what risks they're willing to take and minimize the risks as much as possible. You say opiates drive their own consumption more than GABAergics, that's entirely subjective. Legalizing opiates would lead to less incidences of the highly motivating torturous wd bc they would be easier to obtain and they would be cheaper. It would also be easier to implement a gradual taper which is a fairly easy way off opiates. I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything, you're mind is set in stone on this matter.
I've seen people die from alcohol, become extremely stupid, get into car wrecks, have dangerous mortal accidents beyond driving while intoxicated, go to work drunk, become as addicted as any opiate junky, rob stores to obtain alcohol and anyone could throw in a bunch more. Nonetheless, I'm not arguing it should be illegal, society isn't going to get destroyed if heroin is legalized, it would just reduce the harm for people already inclined towards that life. I can't really think of someone that I know who would change their lifelong abstinence from opiates just bc it was legalized. You're not giving people enough credit. It's not a very clever trap considering most people know and understand the dependence liability of opiates before they start taking them. Someone who wants to get off opiates above everything else can most often do so safely whereas GABAergics don't afford you that privilege.
^ding ding ding. Cigs and tobacco are legal and plenty of people don't smoke or drink. And are we sure this guy isn't trolling? I almost feel like he is.
No shit that addicts would be better off it were legal. As for society overall, that's uncertain--which I hope you finally understand by this third time I've said it.
Why is it nice I removed a part of your post? I simply had no comment. Watch your logical fallacies.
You might be the miraculously responsible opiate user you no doubt portray yourself to be. But that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of users have no such will power; you are one person, not the majority, understand?
Actually, just the fact that you are on suboxone means that you couldn't handle it. So don't go lecturing people about how you have no problems with opiates and are a responsible user.
I did have problems with opiates, actually. I had a serious illness and was on codeine every six hours for several months; I took it exactly as prescribed. I was so addicted by the end that I brainwashed myself into believing that I was still in extreme physical pain and needed another dose. It was scary how the drug could do that. You do have serious problem with opiates, actually.
"Just bc you had a problem with opiates doesn't mean everybody should be denied them"...really? Are you still worth my time?
"You say opiates drive their own consumption more than GABAergics, that's entirely subjective" No I did not say that.
My mind is set in stone that no matter how many points for legalizing heroin you come up with, there is no way to know exactly what will happen if it is, and any free-thinking person would realize that there is a very great risk involved. That's my point.
Tapering off opiates is easier? Than what?
"I can't really think of someone that I know who would change their lifelong abstinence from opiates just bc it was legalized". Have you heard of advertising?
"most people know and understand the dependence liability of opiates before they start taking them". Source, now.
"Someone who wants to get off opiates above everything else can most often do so safely whereas GABAergics don't afford you that privilege". Maybe. But I know someone who was hospitalized from prescription morphine withdrawal taken as prescribed. He was about to die.
Just so you know, I am of the opinion that opiates/opioids should be available for use by the general population, but not necessarily legal as in go pick up a gram of diacetylmorphine at your nearest gas station.
Actually, you are the one "trolling". Just because you're shocked that I exposed the despicable nature of your post doesn't mean you should take out the fruits of your stupidity on me.
Heroin is not tobbacco. Heroin is not alcohol. Tobbacco simply cannot provide the all-around extreme comfort which mimics life-fulfillment that heroin readily provides, making people less likely to want to lead actual lives in favor of pursuit of heroin. And alcohol is very difficult to become addicted to if used in moderation, even if ingested virtually every day. Does that make sense? Do you see how this might be a problem?
Yeah, heroin isn't tobacco, and it isn't alcohol... it's a hell of a lot better for your body than both of those drugs. You claim that it causes "life-fulfillment [sic]," but that is completely subjective and anyway, what's wrong with a drug that can make one's life seem more fulfilled?
Also, heroin is not as expansively addictive as it's made out to be. In the 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health in the United States, only 5.8% of people who had ever tried heroin had used the drug in the past month (which means that an even smaller percentage were currently using it regularly). Meanwhile, 6.7% of the ENTIRE United States population over 12 years of age had binged on alcohol 5 or more times in the past 30 days, 11.4% of that population had driven while drunk, and 16.3% were smoking tobacco every day at the time of the survey.
I'm on suboxone bc i chose to be. You can't beat a legally supplied super antidepressant. All you really have to do to obtain a script is become physically dependent on an opiate and then it should be fairly easy from there. Most doctors just want money and I saw opiates as the most helpful class of medications that I've ever ingested. I'm where I am willfully. It took planning to get on sub but I did it.
Let's be honest here if opiates were legalized, you wouldn't see magazine advertisements to come get your standardized heroin injection. That goes just a little to far, what respectable establishment would allow ads like that? I never said opiates should be sold out of gas stations so we finally come upon one thing we can agree on. Try to find me one person that thinks heroin doesn't have a horrific wd syndrome, I don't need a source on that one.
As always there's special cases, maybe you know someone that was in poor health who shouldn't have been quitting opiates cold turkey but GABAergics are widely recognized to have more severe complications for the general population. I said most often which implies that there are some people who can't get off safely. You did say that GABAergics are harder to get addicted to bc they impair you too much. You're missing a key player, tolerance. I got along fine in my daily life but my use was extremely compulsive in terms of not caring about what was going to happen to me down the line which I can't really say about opiates. A 10 percent a week taper off opiates or even slower depending on the individual is an easy way to get off them. Most pain patients get off opiates just fine when it comes down to it. No need to generalize your experience to other people. I recognize that other people don't use benzos like I did so that's fine for them. I already described my experience with GABAergic WD and when I saw what I was up against, I was able to successfully discontinue via a slow taper. You always have a choice, its a copout to say the drug completely controls you.
As far as the society thing goes, I'll reiterate my position: Society will not collapse or otherwise be harmed bc opiates are legalized. I find it highly dubious that people would succumb to opiate addiction even if they were exposed to ads. If anything society would benefit from less organized crime.
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Crankinit
Bluelighter
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Have you looked at the heroin maintenance programs in Europe, which universally display that, once provided with enough heroin to satisfy their dependence, many heroin addicts tend to resume life as normal, jobs, families, etc. They don't just sit around drooling on the couch all day.
Heroin addiction is almost universally a case of self-medication. Given the choice between heroin and a normal lifestyle, the addict will choose heroin, because they'd rather be a high junky than a miserable (depressed or anxious or in pain or whatever their problem is) normal citizen but, given the option, they'd prefer further still to conduct a productive life while using heroin. This is only impossible because of the illicit nature of the drug.
It's the black market nature of heroin, which forces the addict into an unproductive lifestyle to maintain their addiction, that causes people to pursue heroin in place of a normal, fulfilling life.
I think you're vastly downplaying the large amount of damage alcohol causes, both physically and socially.
Well said. When I worked at a grocery store there was plenty of people that chose alcohol over a fulfilling life. One of them had even started to turn orange from jaundice shortly before he died in his late twenties. Alcohol can be considered very harmful so I can't understand glorifying it as necessary for society while simultaneously saying opiates would harm society. I'm more productive, happy, hopeful, and less depressed and anxious than I've ever been from taking suboxone than I was prior to being prescribed it. My health is far superior to alcoholics while also being less dysfunctional than them. People turn to opiates for various reasons and you can't stop them. Opiates don't impair your ability to lead a productive life and for many people they may actually be far better off as a result of using them but only if there's a guaranteed clean supply as in maintenance. My life before was confined to my small room and opiates unlocked that mental dungeon. I don't take them to replace a good life, I take them so I can live life.
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No actually in this case its not. Endorphin is the basis of feeling fulfilled.
Heroin use isn't as prevalent because there is a lot of widespread information on its addictive potential, while alcohol is accepted by society, which naturally would downplay its negative attributes. It makes sense that people wouldn't want to use heroin due to it being caught up in crime and impurity--a good incentive not to use.
You're telling me you planned to become addicted to opiates and then switch to suboxone for depression?
Ok. Unfortunately, however, many people regularly taking large doses of GABAergics find their memory and cognitive skills severely hampered, so have trouble leading normal lives. By contrast, an oxycodone addict on a dose which would kill five grown men could be perfectly normal so long as they have the tolerance.
I'm sorry but I can't imagine an easy way to get off of opiates. I tapered, and it hurt to the core. I mean once its gone, its gone. My body and mind took several months to even return to a semblance of normalcy, and I was on one of the weakest opiates. Oh well. I'm not saying everyone has the same experience as me.
I don't think its a cop-out at all to say that powerful drug addiction controls the individual; the substance trains your mind.
Your prediction simply can't be verified. Its merely an opinion, and until you envision how heroin could lead to degeneracy and dissolution, you won't be able to see it as such.
What other substance captures the soul so heartily? Oh, it would be easy for you, a suboxone addict (no offense), to trivialize its hold.
I'm being serious. I shouldn't be surprised at receiving such vehemence from a population such as frequents bluelight, but I kind of am. Again, opiates train the mind, better than any teacher the world has ever known, chemical or otherwise! This is me looking at a possible future consequence, counter to the addled, instant-gratification which pervades the mind of the addict. GABA has perpetuated human society in a generally benevolent direction, but what is this queer, devilishly heaven of a plant called opium?
Crankinit
Bluelighter
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Oh jesus you're joking aren't you?
Go ask any emergency physician how benevolent alcohol is.
The crap you're spewing isn't even remotely based on fact. I can understand not liking opiates, but thinking that alcohol is benevolent and beneficial by comparison is just laughable. Alcohol is more toxic and more damaging, both to society and the individual, than opiates are, by every measure.
In fact I'm convinced you're trolling.
slimvictor
Bluelight Crew
Gotta agree with this statement (well, maybe not EVERY single measure, but on the whole).
That's a far-fetched claim with no basis in fact.
You missed the point - I wasn't claiming that few people try heroin relative to those who try alcohol (this is obvious); what I was claiming is that, of those who DO try heroin, very few continue to use it regularly or become addicts.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I wanted to be on suboxone so I found a way. It turned out to be a great decision too. I suffered from BDD social phobia, and depression before. I no longer suffer daily, opiates are great for psychological pain. 10 mgs daily is the accepted limit for xanax prescriptions, that would cause amnesia and severe behavior disturbances in benzo naive people so yes tolerance can make it possible to be able to live somewhat normally.
You're saying that you took your codeine dose exactly as prescribed so that would seemingly fly right into the face of your former assertion that most opiate exposed people increase their dose indefinitely. In fact, most pain patients take their meds exactly as prescribed. Opiates are certainly not the only mediator of pleasure and there's quite a few people who don't even like them. I know one person who had a large degree of access to various drugs including opiates but alcohol was her DOC. Opiates aren't as heavenly as my first benzo experience before they induced depression via chronic use. I've never felt as content or relaxed as that experience which is impossible for me to forget. Colors had a hazy appeal, everything was entertaining, the tingly tactile pleasure of opiates doesn't compare to every muscle in my body being impossibly relaxed in a complete reprieve of tension, the bed felt so amazing to lie down in, and I could go on and on about it but it hit the exact spot in me that made me chase that feeling down over and over again. I don't find opiates nearly as hard to control but that's me.
I'm not really trivializing the plight of heroin addicts. I even said I had compassion for them bc I know addiction. If anything, you're trivializing the suffering some alcoholics experience. why don't you go ask someone in delirium tremens how their "badass pleasure and stimulation" is? It's laughable to say GABA has perpetuated human society as if the biological imperative to procreate wouldn't overpower anxiety about people having sex for the first time or whatever way you twist it to seem all important. Alcohol also releases endorphins which are in your words solely responsible for fulfillment. GABAergics are known for their extremely protracted WD symptoms as the GABA system seems to be susceptible to long term destabilization so many people who have been addicted to them might share your experience of months and months or even years of hell. I don't know anything about how rapid your taper is so I can't comment but if you were suffering you were going too quickly.
Let's agreee to disagree on the legalization subject. It would almost abolish disease spread through injection and ODs if properly regulated for existing addicts. For people maintained on heroin, they would be pretty much completely normal as you said occurs with opiates. I certainly think the volume of people using heroin would be far smaller than alcohol or tobacco if it was legal bc people have the gift of foresight. Generally only truly desperate people resort to drugs with consequences that opiates have. Krockodil addicts prove that people will do drugs without regard to the consequences if they're that desperate. It should be within everyone's power to use substances that give them the capacity to enjoy life without having to resort to such horrific lengths.
Crankinit
Bluelighter
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In fact it's impossible to increase a codeine dose indefinitely because there's a metabolic ceiling.
Jesus, are we seriously being lectured about the evils of opiates and the virtues of alcohol by someone who's never taken something stronger than codeine?
I think I've said this on this board before, but it never ceases to amuse me that people oppose legalizing certain drugs on the grounds that, if it was legal, everyone would do it, but then you ask them if they would take the drug were it legal and they reply with a vehement 'of course not!'
You only need to look at the massive drop in smoking rates over the last half a century to know that education, public awareness and healthcare are far, far more effective at reducing levels of drug use than criminalization.
You obviously haven't read my posts fully nor have thought about them. It is because you are probably a drug addict and the scum of society. Troll enough? No more do I respond to junkies.