The Vow of Celibacy Should be Eliminated by The Catholic Church

[Maya]

I am starting up this thread due to the ongoing Catholic sex abuse cases that are tainting the image of Catholic Church. I believe that the "Vow of Celibacy" should be eliminated because of human instinct, and that suppressing one's sexual desires is unnatural and has caused problems such as these cases of molestation and abuse. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

[-=SS=-]

Any esoteric function gained by applying the method of celibacy is obviously lost on the Catholic church in this era, so there's no point in really keeping it. However I don't think it will solve the problem of abuse.. I think it's too ingrained in the church (and in politics) to be resolved. The Jimmy Saville case proved what has been said for ages, that this level of buggery goes right to the heart of the establishment.. it's not just limited to the church.

 

[Maya]

Any esoteric function gained by applying the method of celibacy is obviously lost on the Catholic church in this era, so there's no point in really keeping it. However I don't think it will solve the problem of abuse.. I think it's too ingrained in the church (and in politics) to be resolved. The Jimmy Saville case proved what has been said for ages, that this level of buggery goes right to the heart of the establishment.. it's not just limited to the church.

You're absolutely right, I think that it will still depend individually but I also think that it is one of the reasons why these rape/abuse are happening. I am not sure how they can start on preventing these crimes from happening, but perhaps abolishing celibacy is a good way to start?

 

[Foreigner]

I agree with SS that the esoteric function is lost, but the CC is keeping it in order to save face. Chastity is still highly regarded among the clergy, even if it does not lead to any particular spiritual end.

If priests are still masturbating in private then that would be against celibacy also, but the Church is not teaching anyone the value of conserving essence and channelling the energy into divine revelation because they are too busy trying to stupify everyone into obedience.

 

[Tromps]

Ah the old "celibacy causes priests to abuse children" argument.

You know, it's not just the catholic church, many protestant and other churches pastors (whom are allowed to marry) have also been accused/charged/convicted of child abuse scandals. You don't hear as much about it in American press probably because and there are so many different protestant churches that people can't group them together since there's so many different church names they forgot nor do the names stick, but when you hear Catholic you know which church that is; most Christian's in America are protestant, and mainly the fact being the Catholic Church is the largest religious organization in the world with the most people so statistically there are bound to be more bad apples.

Allowing priests to marry won't stop child abuse, just look at other married people/pastors who abuse children still. Holy Orders and Holy Matrimony are separate vocations, equally are important, but everyone has their own calling. A spouse and kids take up quite a bit of time. It's hard to devout yourself fully to serving God and serving the community/parish while serving a family and finding the time to work and make a living for them (remember vows of religious life include poverty, challenges acquiring income/money to provide for your family) all at the same time.

Being a priest is all ready a full-time commitment. There are many good reasons priests don't get married, but I doubt anyone wants to hear it Though there are a few exceptions, and some catholic priests are married, one exception is if a married protestant pastor wants to convert, they are allowed to stay married and become also become a priest in certain cases.

 

[L2R]

for once i agree with tromps. there is no link between celibacy and child abuse.

 

[rickolasnice]

Ha was talking to my mate about this yesterday..

We both find it *not impossible* to be true. It is completely unnatural to suppress such basic human instincts.. and 99% of people saying they don't even think about it are basically lying. Children are a lot easier to manipulate and keep quiet through threats and guilt than an adult (consenting or not)..

This, of course, is just speculation to a high degree.

But there is one thing we can see; teaching complete abstinence has a seemingly direct correlation with unwanted teenage pregnancies:

 

[L2R]

direct correlation is a stretch. how do those states relate to abstinence teaching?

 

[Tromps]

^ I was just about to ask this.

You have a chart on teenage pregnancy rates by state, that's great, but where's your link to education? You need more information than that one graph to draw any conclusions. For all I know I could guess why birth rates are higher in some of those states, but it doesn't say anywhere.

L2R I'm sure we agree on plenty of thoughts, you just don't know it yet

 

[Maya]

I think that what he is trying to convey is the comparison of what abstinence does to people. I definitely agree with Ricko that children are a lot easier to manipulate and keep quiet through threats hence the crimes committed. I also agree that there are other pastors/priests from other religious sects that still commit these crimes but IMO, the crime rate is higher in Catholic church.

 

[rickolasnice]

They are states that teach abstinence only / no sex education at all.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...8&q=states+abstinence+only+education&safe=off

Can't find the list of states (sure I've seen it before).. but come on.. It's the bible belt of America.

Tromps.. Why you backed off of our debate in my religion thread? Theres a couple of questions in there i'd like to get your opinion on. I forgive you for implying that homosexuality can cause many diseases and situational psychological disturbances

 

[L2R]

I think it is ironic how many critics of religion come from a premise that religious people are irrational but then rely on irrational and fallacious arguments.

Prime examples of "it shows more about the accuser than the accused."

Just to paraphrase the logic here. Teen pregnancy seems to correlate with Bible Belt states who would surely be teaching chastity more than other states. Therefore priests who commit to a life of chastity molest children.

 

[Tromps]

Tromps.. Why you backed off of our debate in my religion thread?

I thought it was over?
The thread was dead for so long I barely noticed it rebumped. We went over so many topics (much of the same things through that 10 pages, where some of the debates/arguments have been almost beaten to death. I've been busy over the summer (school + work), and I'm still figuring out what to do this fall so I don't come on bluelight as much, and when I do it's only really in p&s and ce&p.

Some of my viewpoints and beliefs have changed slightly since you first made that thread, but what's there left to discuss? Neither of us are going to prove whether Jesus is the Son of God or not. I figured I can't change what you believe, and you can't change what I do, so what's the point

It's called faith for a reason and you can't knock down or disprove faith. I'll go over and look, maybe chime in, but it's not like my responses are the best anyways, there's probably a thousand people on these forums who can give you better answers than I can.

OT: Maya, do you think there's a correlation between celibacy and child abuse? I mean, look at all the teachers or public officials that have sexually abused children who are married. Was watching "To Catch A Predator" the other night and half of the pedophiles looking to have sex with children were married with a family and children of their own. Super creepy. 8( I think it's even worse when you have a spouse, family, children of your own, yet still abuse other children.

 

[Maya]

I really think there is, and I think what I'm trying to explain is since these feelings of sexual desires are being suppressed humans tend to lose control at some point thus causing some type of hunger for sexual deeds which can result to crimes. I know, it makes me sick to watch these documentaries, news about priests molesting children/women and how the catholic church tried so hard to cover up these crimes by paying money to the victims or the families. I remember reading a case about a catholic priest raped a girl who made a confession to him and killing her by either strangulation or hitting her multiple times in the head (I might be mixing two different cases) and when the priest was interviewed he showed no remorse whatsoever and even said "I will pray for her soul." This makes me so mad thinking that a priest who is supposed to be a disciple of God can commit these horrendous crimes.

 

[Tromps]

Some people don't have intense feelings of strong sexual desires, so I'm not exactly sure how it's suppressing anything if someone is intentionally seeking to be pure and celibate.

How do you explain the successful lawyer in his mid 30's with a beautiful wife and two kids, who meets up with undercover decoys over the internet to have sex with them? Nothing was suppressing their sexual desires except for the law and illegal behavior.

The priests being "disciples of God" doesn't pass the smell test with me, sorry. Just because you become a priest doesn't make you a saint. Good criminals are clever at being able to hide in, 'blend with the crowd,' and look like your normal everyday person.

I'm going to call myself a "disciple of Maya" and when I go out and commit x y and z evil acts should people be angry with you?

 

[Maya]

Some people don't have intense feelings of strong sexual desires, so I'm not exactly sure how it's suppressing anything if someone is intentionally seeking to be pure and celibate.

Some people do and that includes some of these priests who, because of the vow of celibacy is suppressing these desires. It's not only lying to themselves but also being a hypocrite. There is a feeling of sexual deprivation. Let's compare this to a teenager who wants to explore a lot of things but his/her parents are preventing her to do so because of "strict rules." What do you think the outcome is mostly? Rebellion.

How do you explain the successful lawyer in his mid 30's with a beautiful wife and two kids, who meets up with undercover decoys over the internet to have sex with them? Nothing was suppressing their sexual desires except for the law and illegal behavior.

I call this a psychological problem which most of the pedophiles have.

The priests being "disciples of God" doesn't pass the smell test with me, sorry. Just because you become a priest doesn't make you a saint. Good criminals are clever at being able to hide in, 'blend with the crowd,' and look like your normal everyday person.

Some priests became Saints and this is because of their genuine service to be the best servant of God. Some of these priests were beatified. Yes there's going to be mistakes made but this does not give them excuses to molest women/children.

I'm going to call myself a "disciple of Maya" and when I go out and commit x y and z evil acts should people be angry with you?

No absolutely not, each crime is committed individually and this crime should not be used against the religion itself but we also have to consider that there are certain rules in some religions that affect the behavior of its members and as I have mentioned, celibacy is one of them.

 

[exists]

How do you explain the successful lawyer in his mid 30's with a beautiful wife and two kids, who meets up with undercover decoys over the internet to have sex with them? Nothing was suppressing their sexual desires except for the law and illegal behavior.

Celibacy isn't the problem, it's suppression of natural desire, period. Back when I used to watch TV, I'd see "To Catch A Predator." That show pissed me off, because they were busting men for going after 16-year-old girls! The legal age of consent is of course 18 in the US, but other countries are much lower than that. Point being: there is (or used to be) a sound biological reason for choosing younger mates, and the human mind "remembers" that.

The reason that show pissed me off is because it's causing men who are attracted to 16-years-old girls feel naughty and perverted, which in turn causes their desires to become progressively worse. In the case of celibacy, priests are made to feel as if having any sex at all is some kind of crime, so all sex becomes a crime in their minds. At least that's how I see it.

There is, of course, a good reason why the age of consent is as high as it is: not all people are ready for sex at the age of 16. Some are ready at a younger age, some at older ages, so our society chose a "safe" age and kept it that.

 

[Maya]

Celibacy isn't the problem, it's suppression of natural desire, period. Back when I used to watch TV, I'd see "To Catch A Predator." That show pissed me off, because they were busting men for going after 16-year-old girls! The legal age of consent is of course 18 in the US, but other countries are much lower than that. Point being: there is (or used to be) a sound biological reason for choosing younger mates, and the human mind "remembers" that.

But doesn't celibacy suppress this natural desire to have sex? It is the rule itself that has caused these problems and if the priest has a psychological problem then this causes a bigger problem that leads to sex crimes.

There is, of course, a good reason why the age of consent is as high as it is: not all people are ready for sex at the age of 16. Some are ready at a younger age, some at older ages, so our society chose a "safe" age and kept it that.

I agree with you but there are parents who are extremes who would not allow their children to go even to sleep over a friend's house. I for example was brought up with strict rules that were ridiculous to the point where I felt that it was no longer discipline but a suppression of my freedom and felt that I have wasted years of my younger life instead of have lived it. Discipline is very important and the outcome of a teenagers behavior will depend on how he/she was brought up.

 

[exists]

But doesn't celibacy suppress this natural desire to have sex? It is the rule itself that has caused these problems and if the priest has a psychological problem then this causes a bigger problem that leads to sex crimes.

I meant to say, "celibacy isn't the entire problem." It's a problem, to be sure! I'll willing to bet that the actual number of men who don't require sex is very, very low (prob. < 0.5%). The rest of us need sex, ergo, celibacy should be abolished.

Maybe you should include a poll with this thread, Maya

 

[L2R]

I really think there is, and I think what I'm trying to explain is since these feelings of sexual desires are being suppressed humans tend to lose control at some point thus causing some type of hunger for sexual deeds which can result to crimes. I know, it makes me sick to watch these documentaries, news about priests molesting children/women and how the catholic church tried so hard to cover up these crimes by paying money to the victims or the families. I remember reading a case about a catholic priest raped a girl who made a confession to him and killing her by either strangulation or hitting her multiple times in the head (I might be mixing two different cases) and when the priest was interviewed he showed no remorse whatsoever and even said "I will pray for her soul." This makes me so mad thinking that a priest who is supposed to be a disciple of God can commit these horrendous crimes.

You said it makes you mad, so I'm telling you your emotion is clouding your perspective. This perspective is only exacerbating your emotional reaction, only further reducing rationality on this subject.

This is exactly what commercial news and current affairs programs exploit their audiences with.

Chill out, you're only stressing yourself and solving nothing in the process.