The Vow of Celibacy Should be Eliminated by The Catholic Church

[Thorns Have Roses]

The Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests as a pragmatic measure. The Church has long been a very wealthy institution, by the patronage of the European nobility and landed gentry (and indirectly through the taxation of the masses). Having priests be celibate kept them from being able to pass on any of this wealth to descendants, and create dynasties and all the unholy drama of rifts in wealthy families of greedy people.

The key to understanding the Catholic Church is that its hierarchy and traditions were influenced by, and created as a complement to, the European feudal order which ruled people's secular lives. Its rich lore and cultural heritage are appreciated more today for their inscrutability and (temporal) exoticism than as natural extensions of how the mundane world works -- "on heaven as it is on earth". Because in today's Western world, where kings, nobles, and serfs are no longer a part of living memory, the organization and power structure of the Catholic Church are living anachronisms. It's no wonder increasing numbers of people can draw no spiritual nourishment from this Church anymore, and those who can come disproportionally from corners of the world where a feudal-like social order remains.

Interesting! I haven't really read up on the historic aspect of things, mostly more theological matters. Can you link us to some further reading on the subject (or recommend a book)? The theory of the second paragraph would make for interesting discussion, perhaps that is at the heart of the increasing success of Pentecostals and other Protestant groups in the Catholic stronghold of Latin America.

 

[rickolasnice]

Thanks L2R.. but i also made that clear in the original post:

But there is one thing we can see; teaching complete abstinence has a seemingly direct correlation with unwanted teenage pregnancies:

 

[Foreigner]

The Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests as a pragmatic measure. The Church has long been a very wealthy institution, by the patronage of the European nobility and landed gentry (and indirectly through the taxation of the masses). Having priests be celibate kept them from being able to pass on any of this wealth to descendants, and create dynasties and all the unholy drama of rifts in wealthy families of greedy people.

The key to understanding the Catholic Church is that its hierarchy and traditions were influenced by, and created as a complement to, the European feudal order which ruled people's secular lives. Its rich lore and cultural heritage are appreciated more today for their inscrutability and (temporal) exoticism than as natural extensions of how the mundane world works -- "on heaven as it is on earth". Because in today's Western world, where kings, nobles, and serfs are no longer a part of living memory, the organization and power structure of the Catholic Church are living anachronisms. It's no wonder increasing numbers of people can draw no spiritual nourishment from this Church anymore, and those who can come disproportionally from corners of the world where a feudal-like social order remains.

Great post! Thank you.

 

[Tromps]

@exists

I only used the last sentences to shorten it when I was quoting, which I'll bold, and I'll use the translation you want. When comparing verses I like to use http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-12.htm yet I still think they have the same meaning.

For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.[exists]”

So your first two definitions are correct, but the last one is not, as celibacy is not the same as castration.

True, they aren't the same, if I said that I was mistaken.

Why would Jesus use the word "eunuch" for all three cases unless he actually meant "one who is castrated or sterile?"

Good question. I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess the word has different meanings in different contexts or when connected with different words, plus the meaning of some words change over time.

The first case makes no sense, unless a man was born without testes or sterile in some other way. The second case makes no sense either, since how can one man force another man to be celibate? (Two possibilities: 1) imprisonment; 2) castration.) The last case makes sense either way, as both castration and celibacy can be personal choices.

The first case, people may be born with all sorts of conditions that causes them to not be able to have children, born sterile yes, for many reasons it could be. Second one may be a bit more brutal, it's likely someone who was forced.

And that brings me to another question I wanted to bring up: should voluntary castration be legalized?

It already is (or not illegal I should say).

Preventing births and STDs is not the issue. The issue (assuming we're still talking about Mt 19:12) is forsaking a sexual life to better serve God and the kingdom of heaven. So the only modern solution I can see at this point is the use of antiandrogens to lessen a man's sex drive (chemical castration).

You're right idk why I mentioned birth control at all, it isn't relevant at all, my excuse is I was half asleep tbh

"forsaking a sexual life to better serve God" is how I see it. I have no comment on using chemicals to lesson sex drive.

@MyDoorsAreOpen

Thanks for the insightful post. The Church itself may be a wealthy institution, but as for the people and it's hierarchy of clergy (bishops, priests, brothers & sisters) I assure you none of them are wealthy. The people are poor, they have renounced wealth and luxury, living simple lives as servants.

A couple months ago at the church I attend our parishioners were recognized for raising over 600k usd that was contributed to rebuilding homes and a community hit by a natural disaster in the dominican republic.
Our church put up more funds than any others around and was recognized by our archdiocese (area or district of many churches, such as many schools under a district) for outstanding contribution.
The whole sermon at mass was devoted to testimony of the hands on work done there and the impact a small town in the USA can make in another country.
When I see the pictures of rebuilt homes, happy families, fed children smiling, and hear first hand how people's lives have been changed, I know the money being put in the basket is going for a good cause.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^As far as the vow of poverty goes, let's keep in mind that while in a capitalist system wealth leads to power, in the days of yore the trend was that power leads to wealth (and the church was once very powerful indeed). Even today the higher you go up the ladder of Church rank, the more pomp and privilege you get, let us hope Pope Francis' initial displays of humility in this regard catch on.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Keep in mind that the ancient Christian Churches that date from the same era as the RCC also tend to have celibate monastic orders and upper hierarchy, even if they allow their parish priests to marry, for the same reasons. I'm not sure about this, but I bet the parish priests in the eastern churches had a lot less power or direct access to church resources.

Then Protestantism came along, and said sayonara to the upper hierarchy altogether. And the monastic orders, for the most part. Protestant theologians tended to see marriage as something of an analogue to the surrender of oneself to God and to the community of one's fellow faithful, and saw that a man who made a good husband would probably make a good religious community leader. And honestly, I think what they created was a lot more along the lines of what Jesus envisioned. From all I've ever read about the dude, I see no reason to think he was a big fan of either hierarchy or celibacy.

 

[bunnymunro]

It occurs to me that you may be barking up the wrong tree....could it be that males who are genetically predisposed to molesting children are also more likely to become priests (perhaps due to some sort of need to redeem themselves or something)?

 

[L2R]

^dunno about wanting to be redeemed. maybe a compulsion towards ideas of purity and innosense can lead men to both priesthood and children. i'd buy that explanation far more than denial of sex having an influence on kind of attraction/desire.

 

[Shadowsblaze]

I copied this from the King James Bible 1Timothy 4: 1-4 but it is found in the catholic bible pretty much word for word. Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in later times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
"The catholic version has food instead of meat but either way the churches should be aware of this and you gotta wonder why they follow these doctrines when their bible warns them of these teaching."

 

[rickolasnice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

 

[Maya]

I copied this from the King James Bible 1Timothy 4: 1-4 but it is found in the catholic bible pretty much word for word. Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in later times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
"The catholic version has food instead of meat but either way the churches should be aware of this and you gotta wonder why they follow these doctrines when their bible warns them of these teaching."

Yes thank you for sharing this Shadowblaze! This clearly shows that there are a lot of teachings in the Catholic church that contradicts with the set rules thus creating confusion and doubt amongst its members (guilty of it).

 

[Tromps]

Oh please come on' now there's no need to derail this thread over contradictions in the Bible into what would end up being a long and endless ordeal.

Protestantism contradicts if not more teachings in the Bible, protestants are so divided it shows there's also doubts among it's members and much confusion, it goes both ways, there are plenty of things in the Bible which Jesus said that the reformers threw out. For example:

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

Now anyone who has studied the Bible knows that the Gospel of John is the most direct, commanding, and literal gospel in the Bible. Compared to the other gospels which are much more symbolic and contain many parables (illustrations). We could go on about salvation by good works vs faith alone and all the other differences in Christianity, but I wish Christians will someday unite and put all this aside.

Even more off topic: And in Islam a man can marry up to four wives and even be an imam (spiritual leader) while being completely devoted and surrendered to God, but if he can't deal with them justly he is to only marry one. Now that sounds like a juggle.

 

[rickolasnice]

A United States Department of Justice report, Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, states that "In 2011-12, an estimated 4.0% of state and federal prison inmates and 3.2% of jail inmates reported experiencing one or more incidents of sexual victimization by another inmate or facility staff in the past 12 months or since admission to the facility, if less than 12 months."

Research has shown that juveniles incarcerated with adults are five times more likely to report being victims of sexual assault than youth in juvenile facilities,[9] and the suicide rate of juveniles in adult jails is 7.7 times higher than that of juvenile detention centers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_rape_in_the_United_States

 

[scraphead]

Breaking the vow of celibacy is presumably a sin & child abuse is certainly a sin but which in the CC is the greater sin?

 

[Tromps]

Breaking the vow of celibacy is presumably a sin & child abuse is certainly a sin but which in the CC is the greater sin?

child abuse ofc, given the scenario, lock them up for decades.

 

[Maya]

Breaking the vow of celibacy is presumably a sin & child abuse is certainly a sin but which in the CC is the greater sin?

I agree with Tromps that of course, child abuse is the greater sin. The only thing is, I do not understand why the Catholic church imposed the Vow of Celibacy for priests in the first place because in older times, prophets like Abraham or Moses had wives. This did not prevent them from spreading the teachings of God so why constrain priests from getting married or having a partner? I used to view premarital sex or having sex outside of marriage a sin as per the religious views that was imposed on me as a child but if you look into it deeply, sex is a natural part of being human that should not be restrained.

 

[rickolasnice]

I think MyDoorsAreOpen explained it on the previous page..

The Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests as a pragmatic measure. The Church has long been a very wealthy institution, by the patronage of the European nobility and landed gentry (and indirectly through the taxation of the masses). Having priests be celibate kept them from being able to pass on any of this wealth to descendants, and create dynasties and all the unholy drama of rifts in wealthy families of greedy people.

 

[Maya]

I think MyDoorsAreOpen explained it on the previous page..

Yes I have read this one, but this is how we were taught by one of the priests I had a confession with:

"Maya, you have to get married first before you have sex as this is what God wants us, you have to be as pure as you can for your husband and be a good mother to your future family." Since you have already committed these sins, you have to recite 10 Hail Mary's, 5 Our Fathers and 3 Glory Be's."

Hypocrisy or Sprituality?

I think that there are priests that are still dedicated to being servants of God and I think that this creates a division in the Catholic church.

 

[Tromps]

The Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests as a pragmatic measure. The Church has long been a very wealthy institution, by the patronage of the European nobility and landed gentry (and indirectly through the taxation of the masses). Having priests be celibate kept them from being able to pass on any of this wealth to descendants, and create dynasties and all the unholy drama of rifts in wealthy families of greedy people.

I still don't understand how you would be able to pass on any wealth if you are a person without much wealth.

How about the vow of poverty, should that be eliminated?

Money and material wealth would distract the servants of God in the CC, just as women and lust would. .

 

[Tromps]

I think that there are priests that are still dedicated to being servants of God and I think that this creates a division in the Catholic church.

They are there as spiritual directors. They have recited the same passages from cover to cover, studying every aspect of the faith as best they can and interpreting it's meaning, guided by God and the spirit. You're average church goer with a career, spouse, and kids, I don't think has the time in their busy lives to contemplate in-depth and daily meditate on the mysteries of God. The clergy does this for a living. Their life career is to develop an understanding of God's message to clearly preach the good news to others.

I'm not saying people aren't smart, idk, but I think of the clergy as people who are lawyers or doctors. There's good ones and bad ones. The good ones have extensively studied for years and are filled with the spirit; sometimes you may need advice from someone with the wide experience of dealing with a vast amount of people's spiritual dilemmas.

I think the majority of catholic's don't have an intense problem with clergy being celibate. Others on the board might be able to give their opinion.