• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe

The Problem of Evil.

freddy47 said:
And Christianity is not a religion... Why/How?
Click to expand...

I said God isnt religion. There are rules and laws within Christianity that we might define as 'religion'. I believe those rules
and that attitude to Christ serves a purpose for some. Some need boundaries for a while before they can know
freedom. I see church in many ways as a hospital. The rules and traditions that have emerged are like crutches for the wounded.

Christ however came to set us Free from rules and legalism. It was His mission to liberate those in bondage to anything .. crutches, law, sickness, sin and ultimately from death.

Again, if your experience of 'Christianity' was heavy on the former type I'm truely sorry and hope you havnt completely
shut your mind off to any sweet childhood memories of Christ and the possiblity that He does exist and is Good.
 
Last edited:
freddy47 said:
True but I am mainly questioning the Abrahamic view of God in which God does have very human qualities/faults. In fact I have a hard time reading the Old Testament and not thinking the things Yahweh does are anything but the immature hissy fits of an ill tempered child. As to a view on God that does not try to anthropomorphize I can only agree with your assertion.
Click to expand...

Yes. But remember that theology has evolved. Middle Easterners in Old Testament times probably likened the divine to a capricious and wrathful totalitarian chieftain, because that's the only kind of authority they knew. Then as people learned more about the world and found different ways to relate to each other, they started wondering if maybe other analogies might be more fitting. I happen to think that if there's a higher power, its authority and regard for us is not closely analogous to any inter-human power structure.

But the overwhelming evidence is that the Universe IS random. In life sometimes suffering is pointless. People die over stupid things everyday and nothing changes that.
Click to expand...

Or maybe it just seems that way from our necessarily limited perspective. Any pattern beyond our understanding would certainly seem random.

99.9% of all species that have ever lived on this planet have gone extinct. How much more pointless can you get?
Click to expand...

So a species (or anything, for that matter) needs to persist indefinitely to have a point? What if something finished playing its role in the great cosmic drama and then exited stage left?

Extinction is ultimately the path of every creature on this planet and there is no avoiding that, for the Earth will not last forever. If there is a God then he obviously knows that at some point his plan will come to nothingness. So I must question the wisdom of a God who ultimate plan is nothingness.
Click to expand...

I don't question it. Because if God can create something out of nothing, then maybe something needs to return to nothing before God can restart the creation process. Indeed, all the matter we currently detect is evanescent. But we have no idea whether all the matter we currently detect is all there is, and all there ever will or could be.

And that in his plan somehow he thought it vital to have events like the Holocaust or the Spanish Inquisition. Perhaps we are all just guinea pigs in a vast experiment designed for some mysterious purpose? Anyway it isn't like I don't sometimes get depressed over the idea that we live in such a cruel and unforgiving universe in which we are nothing but insignificant pieces of living matter. I do sometimes find myself overcome with existential ennui at times. But then I realize that hey, we are here to give ourselves meaning. We are here to better ourselves and the world around us and have some fun in the process. And if life is ultimately meaningless so what? I found my own meaning in things that aren't fantasy.
Click to expand...

OK then, we've come full circle: If nothing we do ultimately matters and it's up to us to make our own meaning, then there's really nothing stopping me or anyone else from holding out hope that this apparent meaninglessness is an illusion, and we're here by the grace of some higher power for some higher purpose. There's no good argument not to.
 
Christ however came to set us Free from rules and legalism. It was His mission to liberate those in bondage to anything .. crutches, law, sickness, sin and ultimately from death.
Click to expand...

And yet it was Jesus who said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars. And render unto the Lord what is the Lords." I understand that from the Christian perspective everything ultimately belongs to the lord. But the fact that the New Testament condones slavery and in fact states that slaves should remain obedient to their masters no matter how cruel they are seems to contradict your claim that Jesus came to set us free from rules and legalism.

Sure they're sweet little meaningless nothings like Paul saying "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

But in nearly the same breath Paul says "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior." Titus 2:9-10

And in the Old Testament slavery is even more prevalent. "When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property." Exodus 21: 20-21

Why should we believe in a view of God that has no problem with slavery and in fact condones it and even tries to regulate it? And lately I have been hearing the argument from Christians more and more that slavery was somehow different back in olden times. That it was somehow less cruel and less inhumane.

To those arguments I simply say BULLSHIT! Slavery is owning another human being. That is it! It is wrong and always will be wrong. Just because slavery didn't use to be racially motivated does not mean it has any merits to it. And I don't see how the acquisition of slaves through conquest is somehow humane and understanding!

No wonder Nietzsche thought that Christianity is the religion of the slave.
 
Yes. But remember that theology has evolved. Middle Easterners in Old Testament times probably likened the divine to a capricious and wrathful totalitarian chieftain, because that's the only kind of authority they knew. Then as people learned more about the world and found different ways to relate to each other, they started wondering if maybe other analogies might be more fitting. I happen to think that if there's a higher power, its authority and regard for us is not closely analogous to any inter-human power structure.
Click to expand...

I agree Theology has evolved. But the fact is significant portions of the world are still under the thumb of Christianity and Islam and have yet to adapt a more adaptive and free Theology. But yes I agree with you especially on the last part. If there is a God he would be nothing like a human in any way shape or form.

Or maybe it just seems that way from our necessarily limited perspective. Any pattern beyond our understanding would certainly seem random.
Click to expand...

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree.

So a species (or anything, for that matter) needs to persist indefinitely to have a point? What if something finished playing its role in the great cosmic drama and then exited stage left?
Click to expand...

I guess if that somethings ultimate role in the Universe was to buried for millions of years and get turned to petroleum only to be burned in some assholes gas tank to further the destruction of more species then yes I guess there is a point to going extinct. Alas forgive my ill humor couldn't hold back. :)

I guess my point was that in the end everything just ends up in the dirt. And in the dirt we stay. And eventually even that dirt will be consumed by the sun. So I am having trouble seeing an ultimate meaning. Unless you prescribe to the Hindu belief that the world is but a stage in which our lives are dramas to test us and see if we are worthy of the next step.

I don't question it. Because if God can create something out of nothing, then maybe something needs to return to nothing before God can restart the creation process. Indeed, all the matter we currently detect is evanescent. But we have no idea whether all the matter we currently detect is all there is, and all there ever will or could be.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of a newer Futurama episode. Anyway in it they get a time machine that can only move forward in time. They were only supposed to move forward in time 5 minutes but lo and behold one of them fucks up and ends up going a million years into the future. So they decide to go to a point in time where there has been a time machine made to go back in time. Eventually they reach there and again they fuck up and go too far. So they eventually make the decision to ride till the end of the universe. After seeing all the stars twinkle out another big bang restarts the universe and creates a universe that is identical.

So maybe the Universe will eventually recycle itself. Maybe all that dark matter out there has some meaning after all.

OK then, we've come full circle: If nothing we do ultimately matters and it's up to us to make our own meaning, then there's really nothing stopping me or anyone else from holding out hope that this apparent meaninglessness is an illusion, and we're here by the grace of some higher power for some higher purpose. There's no good argument not to.
Click to expand...

Well I would say that it is a waste of time. Believing in fantasy and supporting the ideology of that fantasy in furtherance of nothing is a waste of the valuable time we have here while other more important pursuits lay in wait. That is my argument against it. Whether it is a good one is up to people to decide.
 
" Religion is anti knowledge,"- the first word that the angel Jibril spoke to Mohammed was "Iqra!",meaning something like read-learn-understand.
I don't think God micromanages the universe.
 
The problem of evil doesnt prove that god does or does not exist. Also you must ask yourself the question, where did the idea of a loving god come from? How did we get that idea in our heads.
 
" Religion is anti knowledge,"- the first word that the angel Jibril spoke to Mohammed was "Iqra!",meaning something like read-learn-understand.
Click to expand...

I read that religious orders were amongst the vanguard of science at its inception, teaching reading & writing to folks, researching this & that etc
Click to expand...

I think I must amend my statement. I should have said that the whole Adam and Eve story is anti-knowledge as it was God punishing man for its search for knowledge thereby leaving a stain of anti knowledge on the Abrahamic religions.

However I do think that for every Jesuit order priest that tried to advance knowledge empirically and scientifically there were a dozen Spanish Inquisitors against it. For every Galileo there was a pope who saw heresy. And for every woman who sought to speak her mind there was a witch hunt etc etc.
 
The problem of evil doesnt prove that god does or does not exist. Also you must ask yourself the question, where did the idea of a loving god come from? How did we get that idea in our heads.
Click to expand...

I would say its a by-product of our evolution. Our ancestors feared being alone so they created a all loving father figure to protect their minds from frightful thoughts and questions that would have paralyzed them in a time when survival was their sole goal in life. Thoughts and questions such as where will I go after I die or is this our lot in life? To suffer aimlessly across the expanses of this huge world and die forgotten? No there must be more to this! I get it... God! *Theme from 2001: A Space Odyssey plays*
 
God said dont eat the fruit you will die.

They ate the fruit and died.

Adam and Eve were plunged into a realm of cause and effect. Where actions do have consequences. Buddhists describe
the realm as conditioned arising, sustaining samsara. They went from a world of absolutes to a world of relativity. The need for logic and understanding for survival were part of that plane or this plane for want of a better word.

You could say they chose death.

One example I can think of off the top of my head to illustrate that Christianity isnt anti knowledge is the history of the
Jesuits who are known for their work in education (founding schools, colleges, universities and seminaries), and intellectual research.

Heres the OTs perspective.

Proverbs 4

5 Get wisdom, get understanding;
do not forget my words or swerve from them.
6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you;
love her, and she will watch over you.
7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom.
Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you;
embrace her, and she will honor you.
9 She will set a garland of grace on your head
and present you with a crown of splendor.”
10 Listen, my son, accept what I say,
and the years of your life will be many.
11 I guide you in the way of wisdom
and lead you along straight paths.
12 When you walk, your steps will not be hampered;
when you run, you will not stumble.
13 Hold on to instruction, do not let it go;
guard it well, for it is your life.

Its just occurred to me that since you are in a world of relativity and polar opposites the absolutist statements
that you are making are meaningless. You cant say 'God is anti knowledge' or 'the church is anti knowledge'
The god you know is both good and evil. About light and enlightenment, darkness and oppression. As is the
church.
From the beginning God was Good as was Creation. It was created 'Good' ( gen 1) Absolute!
 
Last edited:
YellowPolkaDotHalo said:
Bob Marley was filled with Gods Spirit and was an utter lover of Christ IMO.
Click to expand...
B9 That was the full sentence 8)

I think that because of the way he shined, because of his Love, because of the lyrics of his songs. Theres some
debate around his religion at his death. It really means little to me I know a child of God when I see them.
 
@YellowPolkaDotHalo

I noticed you completely ignored the slavery issue as well as my acknowledgement of the Jesuit order as empirical and knowledge seekers and how for every Jesuit priest there was a Spanish Inquisitor. For every Galileo there was a Pope who thought science heresy. And for every intelligent woman there was a witch hunt.

Also why are we to blame for what Adam and Eve did. Why do we inherit their sin which really isn't a sin in the first place?
 
Words like 'blame' are tied to your thoughts about God punishing us. I dont believe He is punishing us so Im not going to comment.
I saw your comments about jesuits and witches after my last post. I cant defend the churches actions in a relative world.
The church is as bad as its good.
 
And my post about slavery? Can you defend them? They are after all in the Bible.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top