The Problem of Evil.

[freddy47]

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?" ~Epicurus

So stemming from a discussion from a fellow bluelighter I felt like this is an important topic to bring up. I think it is important for a number reasons. Mainly it says a lot about how people see what they perceive as God and on how they see him/her/it running things. Whether you believe in Yahweh, Allah, or Jesus I think all people who have religious beliefs should look upon this paradox and truly contemplate it.

As for me if I had to put a label on myself I would say I am an atheist. But to paraphrase Darwins Bulldog aka Thomas Huxley the only honest thing a person can claim to be is agnostic for one can never truly prove whether God exists or doesn't.

Personally I think this paradox neatly takes apart the idea of an all loving omnipotent God. However as I am human and my understanding of the world imperfect (as is everyone's) I'd like to think that I have an open mind and that I am truly skeptical, even of my own beliefs at times.

 

[nAON]

 

[freddy47]

^ oky doky then

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

My problem with this argument is the conflation of "loving" with "preventing suffering". Though I'm only grudgingly a fan of it, there is such a thing as tough love. Sometimes the most loving thing I can do for someone is an action that they will find wholly unpleasant. By the same token, sometimes bringing someone pleasure is the most unhelpful thing I can do for them. It all depends how they turn out in the end. If your intestine is obstructed, I can stick a nasogastric tube down your nose, causing you to sneeze, gag, vomit, and cry in pain, but in the end you'll be better off. Or I can just shoot you up with morphine and let you be, and let your bowel rupture.

It could be that there is much to be learned by living life through the eyes of a person with an incurable, painful disease. It could be that I have been one, or many of them, in previous incarnations, and could only live the life I'm living today due to what I learned and how I grew living those more difficult lives first.

I'm not saying this is necessarily how the universe and its mysterious builder work. I use this only as an example of how the great plan could be entirely different from how we imagine it to be. Furthermore, our images of what the Master Plan (or the Master Builder) looks like are all analogies drawn from our interactions with other people, and to a lesser extent, other living creatures. Who's to say that whoever's in charge of this show looks, acts, or thinks anything like a human.

 

[freddy47]

First of all there is nothing in the paradox that says anything about love but I understand what you are saying. However I don't think it is a correct analogy as far as to say that it is a false analogy. You used the example of the nasogastric tube to help someone as opposed to shooting him up with morphine and letting his bowel rupture.

IMO Gods position is standing over the man suffering from bowel obstruction with the nasogastric tube and not doing anything to help or hinder the man suffering. In fact some would say God standing over this helpless man caused the suffering in the first place or at least allowed it to happen. God as I see it is indifferent to the plights of man. Would you stand over a dying man having the power to help him but do nothing but look on indifferently? I think not.And for this reason I see no reason why we should believe in such a thing. Why should I worship, pray to, or respect a being that has the power to help but doesn't? IMO if God did exist we should kill him. As Jean Paul Sartre said "even if god were to exist it would be necessary for us to destroy him." IMO God and religion is an obstacle to mans development as a species. Lets be rid of it already.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

Mankind is an obstacle to his development as a species. Lets face it without some residual image of God in the form
of Wisdom or Love someone would have pushed the button and blown the whole planet up already.

 

[freddy47]

You are making the assumption that without god we wouldn't have wisdom or love.

Why do people always attribute these things to a God? Wisdom and love are human ideas as are everything else. The fact that we haven't pushed the button to blow the planet up has nothing to do with God but has everything to do with our idea of self-preservation.

Furthermore as long as the problem of evil persists and goes unanswered and unsolvable then God obviously shows no love or wisdom. Indifference is not love. Indifference does not show wisdom. If anything it just further proves that if indeed God exists he doesn't give a crap. In other words if he does exist he is a kid with an ant farm occasionally singling out a single ant and frying it with a magnifying glass.

We talked about pantheism in the other thread. If God is nature than God is a cruel entity. Because nature itself is cruel. Life feeds on life and love and wisdom never enter into it. Its all a matter of survival. In essence nature favors the strong or the clever. The weak die out and are forgotten. This would contradict the idea that "the meek shall inherit the Earth." For no meek species on this planet would ever survive the harshness of the world.

However I dare say that the God of the Old Testament is far more cruel than even nature can be. Destruction of entire cities because of homosexuality? How about Exodus 21:7 where it gives a father instructions on how to sell your own daughter into slavery? If that isn't cruelty I don't know what is.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

According to the Christian tradition without God we wouldnt have Wisdom or Love. These are attributes of God. We are made in His image and likeness.

Furthermore as long as the problem of evil persists and goes unanswered and unsolvable then God obviously shows no love or wisdom

God shows no Wisdom or Love or we dont?

if indeed God exists he doesn't give a crap.

Nope Hes not indifferent He sent Prophets and then Christ and then people filled with His own Spirit ( His Sons/Daughters)

If God is nature than God is a cruel entity. Because nature itself is cruel. Life feeds on life and love and wisdom never enter into it. Its all a matter of survival. In essence nature favors the strong or the clever. The weak die out and are forgotten. This would contradict the idea that "the meek shall inherit the Earth." For no meek species on this planet would ever survive the harshness of the world

This wasnt Gods plan at creation. There was no death and at the end if you read the last page
there will be no death again.
We live in a cause and effect realm. Its a realm we ' fell' to. It wasnt His intention for us. In Eden there was no work..
No need for logic at that time either. No requirement to plan or think ahead. Just peace and rest ( The Sabbath)

The Nature that we know may favour the ' strong'. But God takes the 'weak things of the world to shame the strong.' 1cor27

 

[freddy47]

According to the Christian tradition without God we wouldnt have Wisdom or Love. These are attributes of God. We are made in His image and likeness.

A God let alone a person with wisdom and infinite love would not destroy entire cities just because he didn't like them. Furthermore why should I worship a God who knowingly creates imperfect people (in his image which says something about his view of perfection) and then blames those imperfections on his admittedly imperfect creation?

God shows no Wisdom or Love or we dont?

God doesn't show love or wisdom is what I was trying to say.

Nope Hes not indifferent He sent Prophets and then Christ and then people filled with His own Spirit ( His Sons/Daughters)

And in which prophet should I put my trust. Technically Muhammed is a prophet. As is Buddha and Bob Marley. Should I trust in the Christian prophets only simply because you say its the correct one? What empirical evidence is there for me to believe in one thing or the other?

Re nature and survival. This wasnt Gods plan at creation. There was not death and at the end if you read the last page
there will be no death again.

Then this brings us back to the paradox. If he is able and not willing then he is malevolent. If he is able and willing then there would be no evil. If he is neither then he doesn't deserve to be called God.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

Bob Marley was filled with Gods Spirit and was an utter lover of Christ IMO.

Hes able and willing and has provided a Way. Bit like an ark really.. if you want to jump in you can if you dont then learn to swim! As always its your choice.

I dont believe He will suffer the sight of His Sons/Daughters suffering for mankind for much longer. Thats my whole
heart for you on my sleeve. You seem to be a clever chap.. have another look at revelations. Listen a bit more to Mr Marley.
I know I'm not going to be staring into the face of a gnashy, stingy locust nor will Bob.. what you got planned?

 

[freddy47]

Just because Bob Marley was a lover of Christ does not mean that I should be to.

Hes able and willing and has provided a Way. Bit like an ark really.. if you want to jump in you can if you dont then learn to swim! As always its your choice.

That way is nothing more than an ultimatum. Love me or burn forever in an everlasting hell. So my options are to either love something I don't truly believe in or suffer for eternity? So much for infinite love.

 

[freddy47]

We live in a cause and effect realm. Its a realm we ' fell' to. It wasnt His intention for us. In Eden there was no work..
No need for logic at that time either. No requirement to plan or think ahead. Just peace and rest

I always found the whole fall story to be nothing more than a myth that is incredibly anti-intellectual. I mean for their curiosity all of mankind has to suffer? (make no mistake that was the only "sin" Adam and Eve committed and that is they wanted to know and understand) I guess God likes to hold grudges.

Also I think all the Abrahamic religions are anti-intellectual and anti -knowledge. In fact my favorite quote by a Rabbi is this. "The Lord says Hear O Israel. Not Think O Israel." That to me sums up where God places the pursuit of knowledge.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

That way is nothing more than an ultimatum. Love me or burn forever in an everlasting hell. So my options are to either love something I don't truly believe in or suffer for eternity? So much for infinite love.

Is it an ultimatum or a concerned shriek Fred? If you saw your child drowning in a pool would you be offering them an ultimatum to take your hand when you dive in to save them? Would that be Love or Hate?

I think all the Abrahamic religions are anti-intellectual and anti knowledge. In fact my favorite quote by a Rabbi is this. "The Lord says Hear O Israel. Not Think O Israel." That to me sums up where God places the pursuit of knowledge.

Oh I thoroughly agree.. Religion is anti knowledge, indeed anti freedom but God isnt

 

[freddy47]

Is it an ultimatum or a concerned shriek Fred? If you saw your child drowning in a pool would you be offering them an ultimatum to take your hand when you dive in to save them? Would that be Love or Hate?

That is an utterly false analogy and ultimately not an ultimatum. An ultimatum is something the demanding party sets conditions to and if those conditions are not met consequences are dealt out.

A more correct Analogy would be my child drowning in the pool and before I extend my hand to save him/her I demand that he/she declare undying love for me or drown. THAT is an ultimatum.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

That seems to be your experience of Christianity and interpretation of God Freddy. Sorry to hear that. Talk later x Peace n Love

 

[B9]

Also I think all the Abrahamic religions are anti-intellectual and anti -knowledge

I read that religious orders were amongst the vanguard of science at its inception, teaching reading & writing to folks, researching this & that etc - must go byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

First of all there is nothing in the paradox that says anything about love but I understand what you are saying.

I've heard Epicurius' famous lines translated as "then He is not all loving". The translation you quote says "malevolent". I think we're splitting hairs. I still don't necessarily see a contradiction between allowing sentient beings to suffer and having good will towards them.

However I don't think it is a correct analogy as far as to say that it is a false analogy. You used the example of the nasogastric tube to help someone as opposed to shooting him up with morphine and letting his bowel rupture.

IMO Gods position is standing over the man suffering from bowel obstruction with the nasogastric tube and not doing anything to help or hinder the man suffering. In fact some would say God standing over this helpless man caused the suffering in the first place or at least allowed it to happen.

Yeah I'll grant you that this is not the best analogy, because the physician did not also cause the problem that he's been brought in to solve.

God as I see it is indifferent to the plights of man. Would you stand over a dying man having the power to help him but do nothing but look on indifferently? I think not.

This statement contains two implicit assumptions, both of which I question. The first is that God thinks and behaves similarly to a human. The second is that God stands apart from, or outside, the world he/she/it created, looking down on it with an objective view. Who's to say that the suffering man isn't an embodiment of the godhead? As well as the physician, in turn?

And for this reason I see no reason why we should believe in such a thing. Why should I worship, pray to, or respect a being that has the power to help but doesn't?

All you (and Epicurius, and Sartre) have shown is that we humans are not ruled over by a supernatural babysitter who keeps us from playing with dangerous objects. It does not logically follow that there is nothing supernatural, and no higher power. All we know is that whatever higher power there is, and whatever its cosmic plan is, human beings being free from suffering and decay isn't part of it.

IMO God and religion is an obstacle to mans development as a species. Lets be rid of it already.

Nothing is going to stop people from holding out hope that their sentient experience of this painful life is part of some greater plan. Nor is anything going to stop people from huddling together with others who trust the same wispy clues as to what this plan might be. Bully for you that you're comfortable living in a random, pointless universe where your existence is cosmically insignificant and your suffering is all for nought. But I don't think this will ever be acceptable to most people.

 

[freddy47]

Oh I thoroughly agree.. Religion is anti knowledge, indeed anti freedom but God isnt

And Christianity is not a religion... Why/How?

 

[freddy47]

I've heard Epicurius' famous lines translated as "then He is not all loving". The translation you quote says "malevolent". I think we're splitting hairs. I still don't necessarily see a contradiction between allowing sentient beings to suffer and having good will towards them.

Agreed. Since I assume neither of us are fluent in ancient Greek I will concede that point.

This statement contains two implicit assumptions, both of which I question. The first is that God thinks and behaves similarly to a human. The second is that God stands apart from, or outside, the world he/she/it created, looking down on it with an objective view. Who's to say that the suffering man isn't an embodiment of the godhead? As well as the physician, in turn?

True but I am mainly questioning the Abrahamic view of God in which God does have very human qualities/faults. In fact I have a hard time reading the Old Testament and not thinking the things Yahweh does are anything but the immature hissy fits of an ill tempered child. As to a view on God that does not try to anthropomorphize I can only agree with your assertion.

All you (and Epicurius, and Sartre) have shown is that we humans are not ruled over by a supernatural babysitter who keeps us from playing with dangerous objects. It does not logically follow that there is nothing supernatural, and no higher power. All we know is that whatever higher power there is, and whatever its cosmic plan is, human beings being free from suffering and decay isn't part of it.

Again somewhat agreed but you touch upon this in your next paragraph.

Nothing is going to stop people from holding out hope that their sentient experience of this painful life is part of some greater plan. Nor is anything going to stop people from huddling together with others who trust the same wispy clues as to what this plan might be. Bully for you that you're comfortable living in a random, pointless universe where your existence is cosmically insignificant and your suffering is all for nought. But I don't think this will ever be acceptable to most people.

We are kind of moving away from the problem of evil and going on to THE big question. Meaning. Which I am totally find with since most discussions about the existence or nonexistence of God eventually leads to this. Yes life is often times painful and I can see how in religion people can find a sense of comfort that this is not all there is. That we suffer for a reason or that we suffer as part of some cosmic divine plan not known to us mere mortals. But the overwhelming evidence is that the Universe IS random. In life sometimes suffering is pointless. People die over stupid things everyday and nothing changes that. 99.9% of all species that have ever lived on this planet have gone extinct. How much more pointless can you get? Extinction is ultimately the path of every creature on this planet and there is no avoiding that, for the Earth will not last forever. If there is a God then he obviously knows that at some point his plan will come to nothingness. So I must question the wisdom of a God who ultimate plan is nothingness. And that in his plan somehow he thought it vital to have events like the Holocaust or the Spanish Inquisition. Perhaps we are all just guinea pigs in a vast experiment designed for some mysterious purpose? Anyway it isn't like I don't sometimes get depressed over the idea that we live in such a cruel and unforgiving universe in which we are nothing but insignificant pieces of living matter. I do sometimes find myself overcome with existential ennui at times. But then I realize that hey, we are here to give ourselves meaning. We are here to better ourselves and the world around us and have some fun in the process. And if life is ultimately meaningless so what? I found my own meaning in things that aren't fantasy.

 

[freddy47]

Thought this quote from one of my favorite writers says it better than I can.

"For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us."~Charles Bukowski