rachamim18
Bluelighter
AND???
So what?
So what?
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
The legalization of Heroin
- Thread starter Sand in my Vagina
- Start date
CreativeRandom
Ex-Bluelighter
Legalization is alot different than a heroin based maintenence program.
rachamim18
Bluelighter
Vancouver...
First they were only talking about "safe injection rooms" which I think are a great form of harm reduction. There are clean rooms open 24 hours [usually] and staffed by harm reduction staff and a medical professional to offer tips on safe injection. they provide sterile paraphenalia but not the substance in question.
I then heard that they were considering supplying pharm. grade heroin to a trial population of long term heroin addicts. I did not hear if it was ever tried but the subject is not new. they have done it at least twice in Britain and I believe W. Germany as well. I know that they tried initiating a similar trial in Australia [in addition to the safe injection rooms] but ran into flack in legislating it. It was an understandable political hot potatoe and the subject sank the carreer of more than one politician.
First they were only talking about "safe injection rooms" which I think are a great form of harm reduction. There are clean rooms open 24 hours [usually] and staffed by harm reduction staff and a medical professional to offer tips on safe injection. they provide sterile paraphenalia but not the substance in question.
I then heard that they were considering supplying pharm. grade heroin to a trial population of long term heroin addicts. I did not hear if it was ever tried but the subject is not new. they have done it at least twice in Britain and I believe W. Germany as well. I know that they tried initiating a similar trial in Australia [in addition to the safe injection rooms] but ran into flack in legislating it. It was an understandable political hot potatoe and the subject sank the carreer of more than one politician.
satricion
Bluelighter
It was a long and hard battle fought by a lot of dedicated people to overcome the political opposition to safe heroin injecting rooms in Australia, but we now have at least one safe injecting room in Sydney that I know of.
I may have a particularly biased opinion, but I am against IV drug use.
One could make a good approximation to morphine with tramadol. For instance one takes their tramadol, O-desmethylates it with DIBAL and isolates the desired (R)-isomer. However such a compound would have poor enough bioavailability that one would feel the drive to inject it.
Personally I would agree more with bioavailable opioids that are semi-synthetic derivatives of natural products. For example compounds can be made from thebaine => oxymorphone => products with high bioavailablity with limited abuse liability.
Heroin is a crude drug that has its origin at the turn of the 20th century. I think it is old fashioned and a more modern approach must be adopted toward curbing its usage.
One could make a good approximation to morphine with tramadol. For instance one takes their tramadol, O-desmethylates it with DIBAL and isolates the desired (R)-isomer. However such a compound would have poor enough bioavailability that one would feel the drive to inject it.
Personally I would agree more with bioavailable opioids that are semi-synthetic derivatives of natural products. For example compounds can be made from thebaine => oxymorphone => products with high bioavailablity with limited abuse liability.
Heroin is a crude drug that has its origin at the turn of the 20th century. I think it is old fashioned and a more modern approach must be adopted toward curbing its usage.
dankstersauce
Bluelighter
Cimora said:
yeah right. you think politicians dont want to increase the revenue of the government? oh course they'd tax it just like they tax alcohol and cigarettes(which ruin far more lives than heroin)
heroin already has enough loyal users, so the market is already there...they dont need to cut you any breaks, they know you're gonna buy it.
however legalizing heroin would decrease money needed to jail junkies. and probably save the legal system a lot of money.
i'm waitin for the day i can walk up to some one on the street and ask to bum a shot of dope...
**hAyzzZZ**
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 1,567
reading this thread i never thought about some of the things that are being said in here. i have never tried H and honestly are pretty damn scared of the stuff.
But saying that, i DO think that alot if not all drugs should be legalised. But that in itself raises so many questions. I mean if they were legalised (inc. H) does that mean that there would be a controlled amount of ex. MDXX in all pills that u buy? and a controlled amount of X say of the main ingredient in all drugs you would be buying? this would do NOTHING, if this was the case it would be fukn pointless legalising drugs, i mean how quickly would u build a tolerance to the shit? every pill you would know what youd be getting... nothing would change... and if they did have a say in the amount of certain ingredients then would they diminish the amount of X ingredient so people wouldnt get 'addicted'? there would be no variation in what your buying... OR if they did legalise it would this mean that ingredients would be readily available to drugs labs, no quesions asked? Then they make the drugs, and distribute them as they see fit? through their dealers? There would be such a huff and puff about how to do this it would probably never be resolved as of all the complications involved... and i dont think everyone in that government would agree on legalising drugs in the first place, forget getting to the detailing of it all..
but i think legalising it would create more of a problem in a sense, i mean if drugs were legalised what next? when does the mayham stop? Sure it might reduce some kind of harm minimisation stragies they would be trying to enforce by making it safer and what not... but would people just find any old excuse to get fucked up cause theres nothing to worry about? would people be more inclinced to get into dealing?
But saying that, i DO think that alot if not all drugs should be legalised. But that in itself raises so many questions. I mean if they were legalised (inc. H) does that mean that there would be a controlled amount of ex. MDXX in all pills that u buy? and a controlled amount of X say of the main ingredient in all drugs you would be buying? this would do NOTHING, if this was the case it would be fukn pointless legalising drugs, i mean how quickly would u build a tolerance to the shit? every pill you would know what youd be getting... nothing would change... and if they did have a say in the amount of certain ingredients then would they diminish the amount of X ingredient so people wouldnt get 'addicted'? there would be no variation in what your buying... OR if they did legalise it would this mean that ingredients would be readily available to drugs labs, no quesions asked? Then they make the drugs, and distribute them as they see fit? through their dealers? There would be such a huff and puff about how to do this it would probably never be resolved as of all the complications involved... and i dont think everyone in that government would agree on legalising drugs in the first place, forget getting to the detailing of it all..
but i think legalising it would create more of a problem in a sense, i mean if drugs were legalised what next? when does the mayham stop? Sure it might reduce some kind of harm minimisation stragies they would be trying to enforce by making it safer and what not... but would people just find any old excuse to get fucked up cause theres nothing to worry about? would people be more inclinced to get into dealing?
satricion
Bluelighter
^^
Uh...dealers wouldn't exist because the drug would be legal...so you'd be able to buy it from legit sources, hopefully from people with enough knowledge to give advice on dosage, contraindications and so on.
I think you need to read this thread again and think about it for a while...
Uh...dealers wouldn't exist because the drug would be legal...so you'd be able to buy it from legit sources, hopefully from people with enough knowledge to give advice on dosage, contraindications and so on.
I think you need to read this thread again and think about it for a while...
**hAyzzZZ**
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 1,567
satricion said:
uhhh... it was a QUESTION, notice the question mark next do it... 8(
soundphaRm
Bluelighter
Re: back for part two...
Exactly, Rachamim, exactly. I am an opiate user, it's like my coffee. Unlike some people who are going for the nod, and just lay there all day, while I was using opiates, I have acheived many degrees. I went to pharmacy school, so I was a R.Ph. (was, because I didn't renew my license this year-what's the point, as I'm going into nursing right now) for quite sometime. I just got sick of standing there counting pills all damn day. So, I'm back in school now, going for my Nurse Practitioner license. I still use opiates. With all those narcotics that I dispensed, I made a personal promise/committment to myself...I make good enough money, I'll aquire my opiates on the street. Not ONCE did I take/steal anything from the pharmacy I worked at (CVS)- it just wasn't worth my job (I have a family of 5 to support), or the loss of my license. I mean i had the key to the C-II cabinet, and not once did we have any shortages on my shift. Now, I'm in training for life-flight RN (and eventually my M.S. in Nursing-which is a Nurse Practitioner- meaning I would be able to write prescriptions if needed for any of my patients.
So, Love In Vein, I might be one of the few that can balance my opiate usage, with my job (surrounded by opiates), but in reality, I'm not...you would be really, REALLY surprised at how many health care professionals are opiate users (if not addicts themselves). In fact my sponsor (Dr. XXX- to protect his anonymity), was a full-blown opiate user (Demerol was his D.O.C.- to the lack of meperidine causing mioisis, the most tell-tale sign of opiate use among health care professionals). But, he was a great Doc, knew what the hell he was doing, and I was very lucky to have gotten him as my sponsor.
But, really, if you think about it, alcohol (in most parts of Europe), is legal for most all ages, so by the time they're 18 (or so), they know what alcohol is all about...that's why you see a LOT less alcohol related fatalities in Europe than you do in the US- because they're already familiar w/ the drug, its effects, and when to say that they've had enough.
It's just the stigma created here by the US gov't, that one can't legally drink until they're 21 (in most states)...which creates an unbridled curiosity in the youth as to why, and they go out and overdo it consistently, resulting in untold fatalities due to terrible car accidents, alcohol poisoning, etc...
But I agree, that legalization would not only reduce the stigma associated w/ its use, but also, as already mentioned, there would be pharmaceutically pure opiates available, cutting down on the risk of OD, and the black market incentive to deal with these substances- we'd basially remove the profit incentive from the hands of the cartels, and put the tax-money into our own coffers. Excuse me if I rambled on a bit, but I just got off a particularly nasty night on life-flight (so excuse my spelling errors also). But I admit I'm an opiate user, and a medical professional. I mostly use opiates, though to curb my back pain (2 displaced disks, 1 ruptured disk, and multiple compression fractures of my thoracic spinal column). So it really helps me do my job better, as I can think more about the patients needs instead of always thinking, "Boy my back is killing me..."
So, I guess it's not really a fair comparison, as I use them for pain, and have been for over 10 years. Yes I have noticed my tolerance go up, but not to astronomical levels you see in daily heroin IV users. If it wasn't for opiates it would be almost impossible to do my job...![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
So, I'd have to disagree that the legalization of opiates, would give us a nation of a bunch of junkies, because that's most definitely not the case.
Most of the harm that comes from opiate usage, comes from the fact that it's illegal, sometimes people have to commit crimes to get it, and some end up being amputees, because some dumb-ass dealer wanted to cut his product down with something (that he didn't know), that would result in great bodily harm to the user. Legalization would cut down if not almost completely eliminate all of the above problems stemming from the fact that it's illegal.
Didn't we learn anything as a nation when we tried prohibition the first time around? Obviously not...
I'd add more because I have so much more to say about this subject, but I have to be ready to go on another life-flight shift tomorrow at 8AM, and I don't want to be late. Basically so far though, I'm seeing and agreeing with Rachamim's P.O.V. on this matter. I'll try to add more tomorrow if I'm not completely worn out...
rachamim18 said:
Exactly, Rachamim, exactly. I am an opiate user, it's like my coffee. Unlike some people who are going for the nod, and just lay there all day, while I was using opiates, I have acheived many degrees. I went to pharmacy school, so I was a R.Ph. (was, because I didn't renew my license this year-what's the point, as I'm going into nursing right now) for quite sometime. I just got sick of standing there counting pills all damn day. So, I'm back in school now, going for my Nurse Practitioner license. I still use opiates. With all those narcotics that I dispensed, I made a personal promise/committment to myself...I make good enough money, I'll aquire my opiates on the street. Not ONCE did I take/steal anything from the pharmacy I worked at (CVS)- it just wasn't worth my job (I have a family of 5 to support), or the loss of my license. I mean i had the key to the C-II cabinet, and not once did we have any shortages on my shift. Now, I'm in training for life-flight RN (and eventually my M.S. in Nursing-which is a Nurse Practitioner- meaning I would be able to write prescriptions if needed for any of my patients.
So, Love In Vein, I might be one of the few that can balance my opiate usage, with my job (surrounded by opiates), but in reality, I'm not...you would be really, REALLY surprised at how many health care professionals are opiate users (if not addicts themselves). In fact my sponsor (Dr. XXX- to protect his anonymity), was a full-blown opiate user (Demerol was his D.O.C.- to the lack of meperidine causing mioisis, the most tell-tale sign of opiate use among health care professionals). But, he was a great Doc, knew what the hell he was doing, and I was very lucky to have gotten him as my sponsor.
But, really, if you think about it, alcohol (in most parts of Europe), is legal for most all ages, so by the time they're 18 (or so), they know what alcohol is all about...that's why you see a LOT less alcohol related fatalities in Europe than you do in the US- because they're already familiar w/ the drug, its effects, and when to say that they've had enough.
It's just the stigma created here by the US gov't, that one can't legally drink until they're 21 (in most states)...which creates an unbridled curiosity in the youth as to why, and they go out and overdo it consistently, resulting in untold fatalities due to terrible car accidents, alcohol poisoning, etc...
But I agree, that legalization would not only reduce the stigma associated w/ its use, but also, as already mentioned, there would be pharmaceutically pure opiates available, cutting down on the risk of OD, and the black market incentive to deal with these substances- we'd basially remove the profit incentive from the hands of the cartels, and put the tax-money into our own coffers. Excuse me if I rambled on a bit, but I just got off a particularly nasty night on life-flight (so excuse my spelling errors also). But I admit I'm an opiate user, and a medical professional. I mostly use opiates, though to curb my back pain (2 displaced disks, 1 ruptured disk, and multiple compression fractures of my thoracic spinal column). So it really helps me do my job better, as I can think more about the patients needs instead of always thinking, "Boy my back is killing me..."
So, I guess it's not really a fair comparison, as I use them for pain, and have been for over 10 years. Yes I have noticed my tolerance go up, but not to astronomical levels you see in daily heroin IV users. If it wasn't for opiates it would be almost impossible to do my job...
So, I'd have to disagree that the legalization of opiates, would give us a nation of a bunch of junkies, because that's most definitely not the case.
Most of the harm that comes from opiate usage, comes from the fact that it's illegal, sometimes people have to commit crimes to get it, and some end up being amputees, because some dumb-ass dealer wanted to cut his product down with something (that he didn't know), that would result in great bodily harm to the user. Legalization would cut down if not almost completely eliminate all of the above problems stemming from the fact that it's illegal.
Didn't we learn anything as a nation when we tried prohibition the first time around? Obviously not...
I'd add more because I have so much more to say about this subject, but I have to be ready to go on another life-flight shift tomorrow at 8AM, and I don't want to be late. Basically so far though, I'm seeing and agreeing with Rachamim's P.O.V. on this matter. I'll try to add more tomorrow if I'm not completely worn out...
kaoskid
Bluelighter
controlling what people put into their own bodies is immoral, i belive that everything should be legalized and available to anyone that wants it (i'm a libertarian), cyanide is legal so why isn't heroin or mescaline or any other psychoactive?
stoned_baby
Bluelighter
Interesting thread this. Im totally for cannabis legalisation, although my days of smoking are largely over. But i think every substance has to be discussed separately and not, as someone above suggested, making a bid for sweeping legalization of everything. Things like addiction potencial and health risks have to be taken into account, because we (unlike libertarians) actually care about people. Heroin is extremely addictive, a complicating factor when speaking about making it generally availible.
I think a more realistic and correct goal for the harm reduction society is decriminalisation of personal use, aiming to get the police out of the picture at least where users are concerned. It is utterly unjust and absurd that you can be persecuted for the contents in your bloodstream (in my country even having ingested a drug is considered criminal behaviour). Logic and fair play would dictate that as long as you are not hurting anyone, disturbing people or being anti-social, the police would have no right to persecute you.
I think a more realistic and correct goal for the harm reduction society is decriminalisation of personal use, aiming to get the police out of the picture at least where users are concerned. It is utterly unjust and absurd that you can be persecuted for the contents in your bloodstream (in my country even having ingested a drug is considered criminal behaviour). Logic and fair play would dictate that as long as you are not hurting anyone, disturbing people or being anti-social, the police would have no right to persecute you.
FUTURAmike
Ex-Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2004
- Messages
- 2,529
"hmm, i always thought that HEROIN was a rather cheap drug, as many news reports and programs said this is how HEROIN dealers got so many hooked, is that H was introduced and was much cheaper than other "hard" drugs, with H opne is able to get real high on $5...then i found out what the street prices for H are and i was like WTF...i really dont know how any H addicts can maintain a daily habit, much less have the cash to buy enuff to where they get addicted.."
I got a heroin hookup that lasted a couple of weeks, and with zero tolerance an "egg" or US $15 bag of street heroin could keep me high as fuck for 2 days straight, or nice and easy for 3. I never got physically addicted, of course, and I think that the best way to use H is to make it a once a week/week and a half thing to keep your tolerance down and save money. If I find another hookup, that's how I plan on using. It just takes some moderation and self control.
Also, I agree with one of the early posters about not being able to maintain daily heroin use. When I use, I like to nod, and when I nod, I'm sleeping for a long fucking time. And when I wake up I'm going to be groggy as hell. I can't function like that, but as a way to end a nice saturday night or start a lazy sunday morning, it can be really really nice. Moderation is key.
I'll never forget the first time I tried heroin. Never.
I got a heroin hookup that lasted a couple of weeks, and with zero tolerance an "egg" or US $15 bag of street heroin could keep me high as fuck for 2 days straight, or nice and easy for 3. I never got physically addicted, of course, and I think that the best way to use H is to make it a once a week/week and a half thing to keep your tolerance down and save money. If I find another hookup, that's how I plan on using. It just takes some moderation and self control.
Also, I agree with one of the early posters about not being able to maintain daily heroin use. When I use, I like to nod, and when I nod, I'm sleeping for a long fucking time. And when I wake up I'm going to be groggy as hell. I can't function like that, but as a way to end a nice saturday night or start a lazy sunday morning, it can be really really nice. Moderation is key.
I'll never forget the first time I tried heroin. Never.