Opioids The Kratom Mega Thread v3

[burn out]

what was your usage like to get into w/d in the first place?

I was dosing once in the morning and once in the evening, 6-10 grams of bali each time.

 

[Ziiirp]

@ sekio

Amen. (No rectum crawling intended)

 

[eteezy915]

Does dairy really diminish kratoms effects? I've read it does but then I've read numerous accounts of people mixing with yogurt. What if I dosed kratom, waited to feel effects then made a milk shake? I ask bc I had a tooth pulled (don't do drugs lol) and kratom is my only pain reliever (unfortunately my dentist knows me personally n won't rx shit) n soft food is all I can eat, a las the need for a milk shake. Ideas?
Thanks

 

[whiteroom67]

To the people calling me out as some sort of kratom hater: I'm twice the scientist you'll ever be, guys! You can get a GCMS and then come talk to me about your findings. If you're jamming kratom powder in your face and reporting bioassay results, that's not really "analysis".

I do GCMS testing on the kratom I consume. Extract the leaf with methanol and chloroform. Barring a few exceptions, the major alkaloid is always mitragynine, 60-70% of the plant's alkaloid balance. The remaining alkaloids visible to me are things like isomers of mitragynine, rhynchophylline/corynoxines, and dehydrogenated/demethylated analogs. I don't believe for a second that there is a superactive compound in there that prevents addiction. I've looked at alkaloid extracts too. Some extracts have no alkaloids in them, some are 100% alkaloid material. The good stuff has little crystals in it and looks sort of like instant coffee. The amount of any yohimbe-related alkaloids is trivial at best. Again, it's stuff like mitragynine and its desmethyl analog.

Mitragynine is a full agonist at opioid receptors. That's been proven. There's no evidence that it harms the liver directly. I've heard of stuff like bile duct blockages caused by low intestinal motility, though. That's probably just from the opioid effects. People get the same sort of blockages on drugs like morphine. Mitragynine also has activity at adrenergic receptors, it's structure is very similar to other agonist like rauwolscine.

I have a feeling that most of the differentiation of effects is psychological. I don't see a lot of difference in alkaloid profile between "stimulating" and "sedating" strains, aside from a slightly higher alkaloid concentration in the sedative ones. I believe that mitragynine on its own has dose-dependent effects. Sort of like DXM... there's at least two 'plateaus'. At lower doses it's mostly adrenergic and stimulating, at higher doses it gains an opioid activity.

To put things in perspective, heroin has been around for more than 100 years and opium has been known for thousands. Just because there is a history of use doesn't make them risk-free. Just because it's a natural plant product doesn't mean you get to use it every day and get away with it. Regular opium use probably isn't harmful physically, but you'll still get dependent.

Also, whoever thinks cannabis doesn't cause dependence needs to move to the West Coast and become a habitual pot smoker. It's hard to believe that there are no withdrawal effects at all when you just can't eat, or get restful sleep without a few tokes. Just because you can ignore the signs of withdrawal, doesn't mean they're not there.

I'm not making any claims about the safety or efficacy of kratom, nor saying you can't take it on a regular basis. I just want to be absolutely crystal clear that kratom is indeed an opioid drug, and it should be treated like one. It doesn't exert its effects through magic. It's an opioid. It is entirely possible to overdose and kill or injure yourself on too much kratom if the stars align just right and you're especially reckless. Anyone saying otherwise is a liar... No drug is 100% perfectly safe. Someone could even OD on ayahuasca if they put their mind to it.

Have there been many kratom fatalities? Obviously not or it'd be banned. Could there be in the future? You bet.

Damn straight lol. Having gone through Kratom withdrawals (more than once), I'm definitely in the "Kratom is an opiate" crowd. Sure its alkaloids aren't chemically structured to traditional, classical "opiates", but it doesn't matter. The mechanism of action is still the same regarding opioid receptor agonism. Okay chemically, it's not an opiate, but pharmacologically, it is; and sure it's alkaloids have other properties as well that typical opiates do not possess, but it certainly doesn't make it "not an opioid", it just has extra added effects considering the fact, and depending on how you look at it, extra added symptoms of withdrawal to compensate (fun).

The only thing I don't really agree with is when you say it's possible to overdose on it. I mean overdose as in take too much and feel like shit? Yeah definitely, but overdose and die? I don't think so, only because by this point we would have seen it happen already. I mean technically, if you took a high enough dose could one overdose and die? Probably. Same with THC or cannabis in general. If you took enough of it, yeah, you can die, but it's just not practically possible. No one will ever be able to consume enough of either before either just passing out or getting sick to the point of being unable to physically keep anymore of it down. If it was possible to die from it, we probably would have seen it by this point. With the exception of maybe a possible severe allergic reaction or something like that.

But in general, yeah you're right. One question though, when you say Mitragynine and its desmethyl analogue... are you referring to 7-hydroxymitragynine? Because I didn't see you mention that alkaloid anywhere else in there and I've read reports of the typical Kratom strain containing around 2% or so of this as part of its alkaloid profile.

 

[liftedgift]

Does dairy really diminish kratoms effects? I've read it does but then I've read numerous accounts of people mixing with yogurt. What if I dosed kratom, waited to feel effects then made a milk shake? I ask bc I had a tooth pulled (don't do drugs lol) and kratom is my only pain reliever (unfortunately my dentist knows me personally n won't rx shit) n soft food is all I can eat, a las the need for a milk shake. Ideas?
Thanks

I have found that any large meal, most people say fatty meals, eaten after dosing kratom will intensify its effects. But that's not always good, sometimes I will get the "wobbles" where your vision gets a little dizzy and other times I won't get them. Kratom is strange.

 

[burn out]

Kratom is strange, one thing I don't get about is the dose response curve. For example today I took a medium-lowish dose and I feel great, I have a good opiate buzz going with pain relief. Other times I will take much more than this and not even get this much of an opiate effect. But its not correct to conclude that less is more either, because sometimes I take this dose and get no opiate effects at all and need to take a high dose. It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I never know what kind of high I am going to get when I take kratom.

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom is strange, one thing I don't get about is the dose response curve. For example today I took a medium-lowish dose and I feel great, I have a good opiate buzz going with pain relief. Other times I will take much more than this and not even get this much of an opiate effect. But its not correct to conclude that less is more either, because sometimes I take this dose and get no opiate effects at all and need to take a high dose. It just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. I never know what kind of high I am going to get when I take kratom.

I know, I'm on Kratom right now and I feel pretty much the same way.

I don't feel the same when it comes to feeling that I need radically different amounts though, because usually similar amounts will have similar effects for me, it's just that it's SO damn hard for me to figure out the right amount, and since I only do Kratom one day a week I redose several times during the day and it's SO hard to tell how much is in my system at any given moment and since just the littlest bit too much makes me feel like shit it's even more complex getting the dose right.

That's why I think "less is more", because when you are dosing multiple times a day you always have to account for however much might be left in your system that you didn't think about and expect that you should take less or you'll take too much and feel shitty (at least in my case).

Also, I'd say "less is more" because if you take too little your high might just not be as strong as you want, but take too much and you can ruin your entire experience and feel bad for 3-4 hours till it wears off, so I am finding it's always smartest to take less than you think you need and only redose if you've really given yourself a long time to feel the effects of the dose you are on.

 

[drewbocop]

The less is more is bullshit. I don't care what anybody says. I've been taking this stuff for years and years and it just doesn't hold up. "Less is more" holds up for any drug if you manage to get your tolerance low enough. 8(

Only drug I've seen this personally semi-effective for is bupe.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Couple of questions: Is there a low enough dose i could take to get effects without it causing constipation, or minial such that it would be manageable? I have a hemmoroid so dont wanna make it worse

Second: if its boiled does that destroy any of the active ingredients at all or no? Being a hypochondriac i feel better boiling off any of the germs, tapeworms etc that the 3rd world thais may have left on there.

 

[Mycophile]

The less is more is bullshit. I don't care what anybody says. I've been taking this stuff for years and years and it just doesn't hold up. "Less is more" holds up for any drug if you manage to get your tolerance low enough. 8(

Only drug I've seen this personally semi-effective for is bupe.

You have much more experience then me but I know FOR ME "less is more" is still true in the sense that if I take too much I will feel like absolute shit and my euphoria will go away also.

Several posters on here who have used Kratom for as long as you have or longer have said that the same thing happens to them and that it has a "ceiling effect" and you can only take so much before you just feel horrible and your high goes away.

So, you can say it's bullshit all you want, but there's no disputing the fact that FOR ME and also for some other people, too much Kratom makes you feel terrible and you would have had a more pleasurable experience on less.

 

[Mycophile]

Couple of questions: Is there a low enough dose i could take to get effects without it causing constipation, or minial such that it would be manageable? I have a hemmoroid so dont wanna make it worse

Second: if its boiled does that destroy any of the active ingredients at all or no? Being a hypochondriac i feel better boiling off any of the germs, tapeworms etc that the 3rd world thais may have left on there.

You can make tea out of boiling it and it works well, though some of the more knowledgable mods here think that the scare of their being tapeworms on it is really just worrying about nothing....I REALLY hope they are right as I prefer taking it raw haha...

I don't know about the constipation thing however.

I'd ask someone more experienced.

 

[f33lg00d]

Berdo I've never had a problem with constipation from kratom, it's relatively weak in that aspect compared to other opioids. You can always take it with a stool softener and/or laxitive if you have an issue w it.

 

[sekio]

If you have tapeworms in your kratom you must be buying it from the dirtiest ghetto vendor ever. It's a powdered dried plant leaf, there shouldn't be any live creepy-crawlies in it if there are, it's a sign your "vendor" is storing it in like, a heap of compost behind his house.

Boiling kratom for hours and hours (usually trying to concentrate it down) will eventually destroy the alkaloids, but making it into a tea with boiling water won't hurt it. The rumor on the playground is that making a tea is a little more hard hitting and intense than tossing-and-washing, because you extract the alkaloids out with the hot water, whereas if you just eat it the alkaloids have a tendency to stick to the leaf a little. They are, after all, the plant's defense mechanism. Makes sense for the kratom tree to hold its cards close.

As for constipation and itchiness and other side effects: Everyone's gonna be different when it comes to that. It's an opioid after all. If you eat a lot of white bread and not a lot of fibre it might stop you up. Probably not as bad as morphine or the others, because it does have some stimulant aspect to it. Due to kratom being a leaf from a tree, it also contains dietary fibre which probably helps somewhat if you toss and wash, or eat the grounds And there is soluble fibre too, just like coffee or tea. Or a spinach smoothie in the morning.

I will also admit: There is sort of a ceiling effect. While kratom is an opioid it's not a... mean drug like some of them are. People have a tendency to stabilize around a certain dose, sort of like with coffee or tea... there's not as much dosing rage out of control like heroin or other opioids. (studies show that if you give opioid dependents/addicts access to a steady supply of good quality drugs they prefer to reach a happy medium dose, rather than push the limits too far all the time - unless they're stressed or mentally deranged) I have a feeling part of it is because kratom is relatively standardized and uncut - unlike street drugs the quality of dried leaf is usually very consistent. Even between strains. And I bet part of it is because it gets really inconvenient to cram fifty grams of powdered leaf down your gullet on the regular, too

 

[Berdo tm1]

cool, i took codeine a long time ago 236 mg and awas only my first time. really stupid dose to try on my 1st time in hindsight- i am alot wiser these days. anyhow i recall i noticeable constipation from that, tho nowadays my diet is alot better since ive had to 'cover my basis' fibre wise already due to the hemmoroid i already have thru my sedentary job.

Berdo I've never had a problem with constipation from kratom, it's relatively weak in that aspect compared to other opioids. You can always take it with a stool softener and/or laxitive if you have an issue w it.

If I got some and were to titrate the dose for a cpl of days could i sitll escape withdrawal?

i mean when i begin i wanna start really low but it might be too low to get an effect. so if it was too low to get an effect on the first day can i dose agian the next day without risking withdrawal and carry on till i get a decent hit? not every day.

but more like first day id take 400mg since i tried 200mg last time and threw it away beofre i tried any more.

so id try 400mg then leave it for the rest of the day to check for any negative effects. so could i do 600mg the next day and so on, ie if its not having a pschoactive effect could i dose consecutively till i found a good dose without risking w/d?

then once i foudn a good dose id not mess with it for the standard regimen of a cpl times a week.

i dont mean a full recreational effect but just the first solid psychoactive minimal effects. then id stop and let it go out my body before the next trial.

 

[al-laddin]

lets just set the record straight about kratom. Yes people react differently to different substances. So when statements are made about any substance its safe to assume that this may VARY ...as you can never predict all factors for any particular situation. However we can discuss what the facts are about kratom and then adjust accordingly. Using your own intuition and intellegince to factor in issues. The following is in regards to PLAIN LEAF anadulterated kratom as an herb. Not head shop bullshit or extracts or what have you. Much in the same way the coca plant can be medicinal but when processed, well, you know.

1.) Kratom withdrawals are far less severe than opiate withdrawals. Often times when you see someone complaining about kratom withdrawal they have zero experience with other opiods. But in comparison it is far less severe. Also I have seen people complain about kratom withdrawal when they have only been on kratom for a week or less JUMPING FROM A HEROIN IV ADDICITION. Now basically they end up having to consume a horrendous amount of leaf and they end up withdrawing from heroin but only delaying it with high doses of kratom. The idea is to stay on kratom and taper down.

2) There is FAR LESS euphoria and compulsivenss to redose with kratom. Making it less recreational/habitual and individuals find it easier to use it for what ails them.

3) Tapering. I found tapering kratom a BREEZE. Its got a short half life so its easy to taper 1 gram per every few days until you jump off with little to no discomfort. I find opiates cause withdrawal to be felt very severly when trying to taper.

4) Ceiling effect. When I was using kratom daily my tolerance barely rose but I finally got up to 16 grams a day and remained that way for nearly two years. I found it easy to taper down or move up . If I try to does too much higher any euphoria achieved quickly turned to dysphoric sickness. This kept me from dosing too high.

5) the lack of complusivenss helps people to actually stay clean and not use kratom once they are done with it. I have personally quit several times because I had too. And only started using again three months later out of boredome and didnt want to resume my alcoholism as I found myself to be extremely functional on kratom. This is another aspect that makes kratom a wiser choice; its not socially destructive. It doesnt cause crime or poverty. This is why many SE asian countries use the leaf alternativley to opiates, especially for people detoxing from real opiates. Further, when if I ever have cravings its for REAL opiates. Sometimes I give in to that craving and take some kratom. My cravings are gone and guess what? I cant dose uncontrolably, Im not likely to nod out or OD.

Look Kratom may be habit forming. It may cause some people side effects, but not everyones chemistry will vibe with everything. But for people with previous opiate addictions or people wanting an herbal remedy for pain, insomnia and many other ailmenst THIS IS BY FAR THE LESSER OF THE EVILS. I feel when people having anything negative to say about kratom its because they personally didnt like the effects, its too novel of a substance for them, or they are dogmatically against anything that potentially may alter consciousness

Now if you have no substances to compare to , then yes kratom withdrawal can suck. But when you know how much worse opiod withdrawal can be....KRATOM IS A GODSEND. Take my mother, for example...who was hooked pharms. Shes clean bc of kratom. She uses it now once or twice a month sparingly for pain.

I HATE CANNABIS.....more accuratly, I hate the way it makes me feel, and the side effects I get from it. I get paranoid, anxious, sick, lethargic and cardiovascular disturbances....I dont go around saying its a shitty dangerous plant even though it potentially may be dangerous for me. My heartrate and blood pressure gets scary sometimes when I smoke pot. So I just dont do it and let peiople that enjoy it have it for themselves...I dont infringe upon it. Certain drugs are prohibited because they are a poison to society....well KRATOM AND CANNABIS ARE FAR FROM THAT. THERES NO COMPARISON BETWEEN KRATOM AND OPIATES in regards to destructive power.

SEATTLE STRANGER: I couldn't quote you for some odd reason.



I just wanted to point out that this is how it is FOR YOU but I've read many accounts on here saying otherwise.

I personally am a noob to Kratom, having only done it on 7 seperate days, but others in this thread have referred to Kratom withdrawal as "a living hell with joint pain, restlessness, anxiety, insomnia, naseau, hot and cold flashes" and other symptoms.

I'm sure you know more about Kratom than me, but I wouldn't want someone inexperienced reading this to assume that Kratom withdrawals are easy and no big deal to go through.

I personally am going to assume that they are terrible so I don't ever have to go through them because if they are as bad as SOME posters have said they are FOR THEM...that's more than I want to have to go through.

It sounds like your personal brain and body chemistry makes Kratom withdrawal easy for you, but just from what I've read I don't believe that Kraotm is 90% psychologically addictive only, as it's an opioid and opioid's have serious physical withdrawal symptoms.

 

[al-laddin]

To the people calling me out as some sort of kratom hater: I'm twice the scientist you'll ever be, guys! You can get a GCMS and then come talk to me about your findings. If you're jamming kratom powder in your face and reporting bioassay results, that's not really "analysis".

I do GCMS testing on the kratom I consume. Extract the leaf with methanol and chloroform. Barring a few exceptions, the major alkaloid is always mitragynine, 60-70% of the plant's alkaloid balance. The remaining alkaloids visible to me are things like isomers of mitragynine, rhynchophylline/corynoxines, and dehydrogenated/demethylated analogs. I don't believe for a second that there is a superactive compound in there that prevents addiction. I've looked at alkaloid extracts too. Some extracts have no alkaloids in them, some are 100% alkaloid material. The good stuff has little crystals in it and looks sort of like instant coffee. The amount of any yohimbe-related alkaloids is trivial at best. Again, it's stuff like mitragynine and its desmethyl analog.

Mitragynine is a full agonist at opioid receptors. That's been proven. There's no evidence that it harms the liver directly. I've heard of stuff like bile duct blockages caused by low intestinal motility, though. That's probably just from the opioid effects. People get the same sort of blockages on drugs like morphine. Mitragynine also has activity at adrenergic receptors, it's structure is very similar to other agonist like rauwolscine.

I have a feeling that most of the differentiation of effects is psychological. I don't see a lot of difference in alkaloid profile between "stimulating" and "sedating" strains, aside from a slightly higher alkaloid concentration in the sedative ones. I believe that mitragynine on its own has dose-dependent effects. Sort of like DXM... there's at least two 'plateaus'. At lower doses it's mostly adrenergic and stimulating, at higher doses it gains an opioid activity.

To put things in perspective, heroin has been around for more than 100 years and opium has been known for thousands. Just because there is a history of use doesn't make them risk-free. Just because it's a natural plant product doesn't mean you get to use it every day and get away with it. Regular opium use probably isn't harmful physically, but you'll still get dependent.

Also, whoever thinks cannabis doesn't cause dependence needs to move to the West Coast and become a habitual pot smoker. It's hard to believe that there are no withdrawal effects at all when you just can't eat, or get restful sleep without a few tokes. Just because you can ignore the signs of withdrawal, doesn't mean they're not there.

I'm not making any claims about the safety or efficacy of kratom, nor saying you can't take it on a regular basis. I just want to be absolutely crystal clear that kratom is indeed an opioid drug, and it should be treated like one. It doesn't exert its effects through magic. It's an opioid. It is entirely possible to overdose and kill or injure yourself on too much kratom if the stars align just right and you're especially reckless. Anyone saying otherwise is a liar... No drug is 100% perfectly safe. Someone could even OD on ayahuasca if they put their mind to it.

Have there been many kratom fatalities? Obviously not or it'd be banned. Could there be in the future? You bet.

Im no scientist youre right, however mytraganine effects opiate receptors but it also has other activity that regular opiates do not. Doesnt that mean something? The fact that its an entirely different chemical that happens to effect the MU receptors? VS every other known naturally derived opiate synthetic/semi synthetic. Every other effective opiate known to man comes from the papaver correct? This is an entierly new (new to the west) thing with little studies done on it.

Im not saying that theres any drug on the planet thats 100% safe ....what Im saying is thus far, Kratom certainlyt seems like the lesser of two evils and its completely unfair to compare it to heroin because thus far it just has not shown it to be as dangerous. The fact that mytraganine has a ceiling effect alone is important to emphasize.

 

[Kaye24trynabattle]

^ All true, Kratom is very easy to taper from...just dont rush your taper...Ive used it in this way before to great success. It is however addictive but to lesser degree than traditional opates

that is really nice to hear coming from someone with personal experiences with success...its been hard but the Kratom has helped me so much when ive wanted to use because i hurt and felt like tearing off my skin i took some kratom and it took the cravings away and def. helped with the pain...im not rushing my tapper am still using the kratom due to me still being in slight withdrawals and its hard working as a trainer in a very busy resteraunt feeling shitty..but i am starting my kratom taper seriousley today.off for a few days and am giving it a go.!!! i really hope others can use this stuff to help them!! its an awesome plant and will help addicts be able to go slow and steady with w/ds istead of using again to take the damn pain and awful anxiety away!! much to love to you all who are in the struggle and fighting and keep on keepin on!!!

 

[Kaye24trynabattle]

I used Kratom to withdraw from opiates. I bought an extract from a local headshop, I wasn't disappointed by the quality of it. So I used it for 6 days, during which I had no opiates. Upon cessation of Kratom I had some horrid withdrawals. Extreme anxiety, restlessness and joint pain were the biggest complaints. I ended up going back to opiates. I would rather withdraw from a moderate opiate habit than a moderate Kratom habit.

your one mistake was taking the extracts! from my research and everything ive read here on bluelight, those are way more addicting and can cause bad withdrawals..if you stick with plain 100 percent kratom leaf powder, i like the capsules because i know exactly what im dosing! then you wouldnt have had such a bad time getting off of it!! also extracts make your kratom tolerence sky rocket verses just using plain old kratom leaf!!!

 

[f33lg00d]

Every other effective opiate known to man comes from the papaver correct?

No, there's plenty of "opiates" that don't, well technically their called opioids if they don't come from poppys.

 

[pinpoint]

^ Yes, but all the synthetics (opioids) are derived from opiates (naturally occurring alkaloids of papaver), afaik.

I went a little crazy and did-nonstop dosing for a month straight using 1oz-1.2oz of powdered maeng da per day. Last dose was Friday and I feel like shit. The not-motivated-to-do-anything aspect of the withdrawal is what kills me. It probably didn't help to stop taking etizolam at the same time either, but I still am sleeping 8hr/night. Getting out of bed is like climbing Mt. Everest. I have to force myself to do everything from shaving to driving.