Opioids The Kratom Mega Thread v3

[Mycophile]

I'm finally figuring out that less is more with Kratom.

I'm starting to have fun mixing strains too.

I'm on 1tsp of Green Malaysian, 3/4 of a teaspoon of Green Vein Borneo and 1/4 of a tsp of White Vein Maeng Da...I'm guessing about 5.0 grams total.

I have noticed that I like the white vein maeng da LESS than any of the green or red veins because I tend to drink a lot of coffee and the white veins are just too damn stimulating so I only like a little of them.

I have one HELL of a high right now...I'm on that Kratom dosage, plus a few cups of coffee, a few sniffs of benzedrex for energy and then I went to a brewery with my brother and drank some kick ass beers...especially some IPAs and American Style Belgians that were tasty.

I don't know why so many people have said that they don't like mixing alcohol with Kratom but having done it today I got ZERO naseau and was social as hell while out.

The only thing is that drinking 5 beers was like drinking a LOT more, I mean not the same obviously as drinking 10 beers, just like increased CNS inebriation, but SO social.

I think Kratom, the RIGHT amount of quality beer and caffeine seems to be one HELL of a social combo.

 

[whiteroom67]

when you say unimaginably painful form what sort of dosing is this from? surely on the more extreme/abusive end of the spectrum?

I simply want a reliable antidepressant which is generally regarded as safe that doesnt have the long term effects quesiton marks above it like ssris do, not looking for recreation but these horror stories keep scaring me off trying. tho it can be hard to ascertain if its just cos the individuals in question overdid it.

Like Mycophile said... yeah I was using it every day. Since I tried it I was using it every day, but most of the time just once a day, after work, in a lower dose. Even with that I still got withdrawals, but pretty minor ones. At the point of horrific and unimaginable, I was doing high doses 3-4 times per day, and it was directly connected to an oxy habit also which made withdrawal from it even worse by being longer and even more intense.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Like Mycophile said... yeah I was using it every day. Since I tried it I was using it every day, but most of the time just once a day, after work, in a lower dose. Even with that I still got withdrawals, but pretty minor ones. At the point of horrific and unimaginable, I was doing high doses 3-4 times per day, and it was directly connected to an oxy habit also which made withdrawal from it even worse by being longer and even more intense.

i see kind of unfair to blame the kratom for delayed oxy withdrawal no?

 

[whiteroom67]

i see kind of unfair to blame the kratom for delayed oxy withdrawal no?

It was combined... hard to explain but I felt the withdrawal of both and they kind of potentiated each other, the same way taking 2 drugs to get a better high could potentiate each other to equal a whole greater than the sum of its parts, yet you still feel the effects of both.

I've withdrawn from Kratom both before that experience though on its own and also since then again, though with not much of a break, and yeah it wasn't as bad but still bad but before I wasn't taking as much, and withdrawal is probably inevitable if you take it frequently enough, unless you have some very unique body chemistry. Simple advice is: just don't take it everyday if you can help it. If every day, limit it to once a day and in a lower-end dose. Anymore than that and you are probably asking for trouble. But everyone is different. If you find yourself needing it more and more though, I would just stop, and the sooner the better. For me, taking once or maybe twice a day for a month or more and then stopping led to no sleep for several nights, uncomfortable physical symptoms, and anxiety and depression that could definitely compete with actual opiate withdrawal - the physical symptoms didn't subside for 4-5 days and the mental symptoms still persisted mildly after a week, then I would always end up going back. At this point now I'm at 12 days or so and it's the longest I've ever gone without it since first trying it over a year ago. My body is alright but my mind is def still recovering.

 

[Shpongleton]

If I might just add kratom is not great as an antidepressant in the long run. Sure, it feels pretty good and pretty euphoric which can certainly help fight off depression. However, that kind of stimulating euphoria can and will disappear over time with continuous use.

 

[whiteroom67]

If I might just add kratom is not great as an antidepressant in the long run. Sure, it feels pretty good and pretty euphoric which can certainly help fight off depression. However, that kind of stimulating euphoria can and will disappear over time with continuous use.

^This - exactly. In addition to the opiate like effects, many people seem to suspect it somehow affects serotonin and/or norepinephrine too, acting in mechanism somewhat as an "antidepressant" in addition to an opiate-based euphoric, and adrenergic stimulant. I and many others can assure you that eventually in the long run, especially as usage increases, most of both the antidepressant/euphoric effects fade and then you would need it just to feel normal, and then when finally choosing to give up the slavery of it all, get ready for some possible serious rebound/withdrawal (all of this again if used regularly... which tends to eventually become overly tempting for many, myself included). The anxiety/depressant (rebound "antidepressant") withdrawal effects tend to last longer than the opiate-like withdrawal effects. I forgot who it was, but someone else on here stated it may possibly be because whatever alkaloid(s) cause the temporary antidepressant effect, may very well have a much longer half-life than the alkaloids that effect the opiate receptors, more or less. Not that there is any scientific backing to that, but it seems plausible.

Even if you were to just google "kratom addiction" or "kratom withdrawal", you will see tons of examples.

 

[southeast]

Oh man, please don't....

Thanks. I would've already ordered some but I had a dilaudid/heroin/opana habit. I feel like this isn't going to do a whole lot.

 

[al-laddin]

Hey guys it seems to be relatively difficult to find info on extracts and being that there are so many of them it would be difficlut to answer my questions so Ill choose UEI for the sake of simplicity. It seems to be the most commonly known and tried/tested of the extracts. If one would like to reproduce a more narcotic like effect would UEI be the way to go? I mean, I have plenty of experience with kratom but zero experience with extracts so this is brand new territory for me.

So about once or twice a month i use a traditional opiate. Is it possible to have a more traditional opiate like experience with UEI? Im an artist, a painter and musician and when I have a long night of work I like to get some OPs and sort of indulge throughout the night. Is it possible to dose and redose with UEI and achieve the effects of say, oxycodone? If one was to do this with plain leaf kratom its rather likely to experience dizziness/dyphoria rather quickly. Generally speaking, milgram for miligram how does UEI stack up...say 1 gram to roughly 20mgs oxy? Thats a shot in the dark, but with the price that one pays for UEI I would assume it should be about that potent. If I can remove opiates from my life completely with the use of kratom I would be happy to do so, but on the other hand Ive been doing great by maintaining on kratom and not falling victim to addiction of opiates and stil being able to indulge once or twice a month on special occasions. ANy help would be awesome.

 

[Kaye24trynabattle]

It was combined... hard to explain but I felt the withdrawal of both and they kind of potentiated each other, the same way taking 2 drugs to get a better high could potentiate each other to equal a whole greater than the sum of its parts, yet you still feel the effects of both.

I've withdrawn from Kratom both before that experience though on its own and also since then again, though with not much of a break, and yeah it wasn't as bad but still bad but before I wasn't taking as much, and withdrawal is probably inevitable if you take it frequently enough, unless you have some very unique body chemistry. Simple advice is: just don't take it everyday if you can help it. If every day, limit it to once a day and in a lower-end dose. Anymore than that and you are probably asking for trouble. But everyone is different. If you find yourself needing it more and more though, I would just stop, and the sooner the better. For me, taking once or maybe twice a day for a month or more and then stopping led to no sleep for several nights, uncomfortable physical symptoms, and anxiety and depression that could definitely compete with actual opiate withdrawal - the physical symptoms didn't subside for 4-5 days and the mental symptoms still persisted mildly after a week, then I would always end up going back. At this point now I'm at 12 days or so and it's the longest I've ever gone without it since first trying it over a year ago. My body is alright but my mind is def still recovering.

Friday will make 3 weeks since i have been using Kratom for my subutex withdrawal..i am dosing dailey but even if i dose 2 or 3 times a day it never exceeds over 5 grams the whole day...it has really helped me get through work..the first week i used tram but i stopped cuz i know how addicting those can be..Kratom has been a life saver for me...i went and saw a np and told her what i had been using and how id been self medicating for years with diff substances to help with depression anxiety and my bipolar disorder so she gave me celexa and a mood stabilizer and (klons(temporary).anway she didnt want me to take the kratom and said the new meds would help with my mood and anxiety so i didnt take the kratom for work the next day and i felt like i had been ran over by a bus..so i have continued to take like 3 or 4 grams of krat a day until the other meds kick in im on day 5 so hopefully it wont be much longer...i am feeling better more and more each day, and plan to taper my doses of kratom for the nest week or so and go off them..from the research ive done since i am not taking high amounts 3-4 weeks of kratom use shouldnt get me addicted to the plant..and i do not feel addicted..i take as needed and sometimes i just ride out the pain for a little while..anyway just putting my opinion out there..if you stay at low doses and tapper of them there should be very minimal w/ds from it...and if i can handle subutex withdrawal and it still lasting almost a month now i know i can tapper of kratom no prob..just putting my input out there and my personal experience..no offense to anyone!

 

[al-laddin]

^ All true, Kratom is very easy to taper from...just dont rush your taper...Ive used it in this way before to great success. It is however addictive but to lesser degree than traditional opates

 

[d1ahp]

I used Kratom to withdraw from opiates. I bought an extract from a local headshop, I wasn't disappointed by the quality of it. So I used it for 6 days, during which I had no opiates. Upon cessation of Kratom I had some horrid withdrawals. Extreme anxiety, restlessness and joint pain were the biggest complaints. I ended up going back to opiates. I would rather withdraw from a moderate opiate habit than a moderate Kratom habit.

 

[sekio]

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there. It's just harder for most people to consume 25 plus grams of plant material in a sitting

 

[burn out]

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there. It's just harder for most people to consume 25 plus grams of plant material in a sitting

Kratom is addictive, but subjectively speaking I find it less addictive than traditional opiates. Part of the reason for that is the stimulating/slightly psychedelic aspect of kratom. I never experience as strong an urge to redose with kratom as I do with opium products. For instance, when I use heroin, I am shooting more heroin an hour later to bring my buzz back up. With kratom, one dose lasts me 8-10 hours and I feel satisfied that whole time.

Another difference, in my experience kratom withdrawal consists of mainly extreme restlessness (which can be severe and worse even than the restlessness you get from opiate wd) however the aspect of kratom withdrawal which I find much less severe than opiate withdrawal is the hot cold flashes. I find those flashes unbearable and they are the reason I never make it through opiate withdrawal. Kratom wd does not produce these severe hot cold flashes so it is much easier for me to wd from.

Question: How long would I need to stop using kratom in order to bring my tolerance back down to zero?

 

[EarthBounded]

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there. It's just harder for most people to consume 25 plus grams of plant material in a sitting

Not gonna argue with the king however this seems pretty out there. I am pretty sure Kratom will cause liver damage before it has the potential for addiction that morphine does...

 

[weekend addiction]

Not gonna argue with the king however this seems pretty out there. I am pretty sure Kratom will cause liver damage before it has the potential for addiction that morphine does...

I'm not sure but I hope it don't cause liver damage. I take a few grams of bali every morning and drink at night. I try to keep many hours apart between dosing. But I imagine its not great for the liver. Then again I don't know anything for sure. I've had recent liver test. I'= fine even after years of boozing and thousands of kratom doses. YMMV.

 

[sekio]

I am pretty sure Kratom will cause liver damage before it has the potential for addiction that morphine does...

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d (lots), versus the number of people who have been hospitalized from kratom induced liver failure (I can count on one hand the number of reported kratom hospitalizations).

Kratom is an opioid. Opioids cause dependence. End of story. Just because it has other modes of action does not offset the fact that it's a mu-opioid ligand. Just because the stimulation offsets some of the sedation, doesn't mean you get a "get out of W/D free" card.

Also: People complain about doctors lying that tramadol, an opioid, is non-addictive, and then turn around and believe that kratom is just fine and won't form dependency because it's a plant? What? Does the same logic make opium OK to consume on the regular? Did you know tramadol is a natural product too? I bet if we had discovered mitragynine instead of tramadol, people would be moaning and whining about how much it sucks instead...

 

[weekend addiction]

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d being agony and unbearable (lots), versus the number of people who have been hospitalized from kratom induced liver failure (I can count on one hand the number of reported kratom hospitalizations).

Kratom is an opioid. Opioids cause dependence. End of story. Just because it has other modes of action does not offset the fact that it's a mu-opioid ligand.

Also: People complain about doctors lying that tramadol is non-addictive, and then turn around and believe that kratom is just fine because it's a plant? What?

I gotta say the withdrawal from kratom is not pleasant. I've been to depressed to work. I didn't get withdrawals when I was going on the occasional binge for a week or 3. I would dose massive doses then several times a day. The dependency really kicked in after taking it daily for a long time in a much lower dosage. Now if I don't have at least a half a tablespoon in the morning I feel off all day. The main withdrawal symptom is depression\apathy. That's why I've been gradually weaning down. I may quit or I may just stick to a teaspoon in the morning.

 

[EarthBounded]

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d (lots), versus the number of people who have been hospitalized from kratom induced liver failure (I can count on one hand the number of reported kratom hospitalizations).

Kratom is an opioid. Opioids cause dependence. End of story. Just because it has other modes of action does not offset the fact that it's a mu-opioid ligand. Just because the stimulation offsets some of the sedation, doesn't mean you get a "get out of W/D free" card.

Also: People complain about doctors lying that tramadol, an opioid, is non-addictive, and then turn around and believe that kratom is just fine and won't form dependency because it's a plant? What? Does the same logic make opium OK to consume on the regular? Did you know tramadol is a natural product too? I bet if we had discovered mitragynine instead of tramadol, people would be moaning and whining about how much it sucks instead...

Hmmm whatever like I said not going to argue with the king ( Seiko, I actually seriously respect your work terpene chemist if I remember correct ). Kratom is too " new " to MOST of the population, I don't care how brilliant one is this drug is too new in it's research phase to make any conclusions... I won't argue with the KNOWN fact this is a mu-opiod ligand, however when this plant contain's 20+ VERY active alkaloids it is hard to reach conclusion, how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

Not to mention all the Bulk alkaloid extracts, it is pretty simple to ingest the equivalent of 25 grams of pure plant matter daily, and I guarantee many user's here are using extract's and Isolations of the active alkaloids.

I just thought this statement was a little overboard:

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there. It's just harder for most people to consume 25 plus grams of plant material in a sitting

Has anyone had to go on a SUB or Methadone treatment for Kratom? Do Kratom user's need Iboga as bad as a Heroin addict? I was simply STATING it would be very very complicated for a user to reach this point... Which is pretty much what your saying but some BL's may think oh well if Kratom is as addictive as Heroin then Im just gonna get my gear and some bags of H...

 

[d1ahp]

I won't argue with the KNOWN fact this is a mu-opiod ligand, however when this plant contain's 20+ VERY active alkaloids it is hard to reach conclusion, how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

I think that fact that people report inability to stop and withdrawals upon cessation makes it pretty clear that it's addictive. If one of the alkaloids helped prevent addiction then people wouldn't get addicted. There are plenty of kratom addiction stories out there.

 

[sekio]

Kratom is too " new " to MOST of the population, I don't care how brilliant one is this drug is too new in it's research phase to make any conclusions...

It's been known to Western researchers in the literature since at least the late 80s and has been distributed on-line from the mid-2000s onwards, so we're coming up to about 10 years of "street" usage now. It's not an unknown compound. I'm pretty confident in saying that kratom is addictive.

how do we know that one of these Alkaloids does not help prevent addiction in some fashion?

The major alkaloid in almost every strain of kratom is mitragynine, and there are perhaps 5 or 6 other common ones present in pharmacologically relevant concentrations. There's speciogynine (an isomer of mitragynine), rhynchophylline (NMDA antagonist), dehydro-mitragynine, etc. None of them are miracle panaceas, and even then, I can tell you that straight up kratom alkaloid extract will produce dependence in mouse, rat, dog, chimps, and humans. So there's nothing to suggest that there is a mystery miracle alkaloid that makes kratom non-addictive.

Has anyone had to go on a SUB or Methadone treatment for Kratom? Do Kratom user's need Iboga as bad as a Heroin addict?

I imagine if you go through 100gm a day of the stuff, yeah. The dose matters and the frequency of use matters, obviously. If you snorted 10 milligrams of heroin once a month would you get dependent? Probably not. 10mg once every hour? Yeah.