Opioids The Kratom Mega Thread v3

[EarthBounded]

I'm not arguing with you, however you mods will take things to the grave.... So in that case we can all learn ( like usual )

The major alkaloid in almost every strain of kratom is mitragynine, and there are perhaps 5 or 6 other common ones present in pharmacologically relevant concentrations. There's speciogynine (an isomer of mitragynine), rhynchophylline (NMDA antagonist), dehydro-mitragynine, etc. None of them are miracle panaceas, and even then, I can tell you that straight up kratom alkaloid extract will produce dependence in mouse, rat, dog, chimps, and humans. So there's nothing to suggest that there is a mystery miracle alkaloid that makes kratom non-addictive.

You fail to mention any Yohimbine alkaloids, I am not saying this is a panacea ( solution ) and I have no idea the content of Yohimbine alkaloids in Mitragyna Speciosa however it is tiny things like this that may " throw off " a possible long term addiction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2057541 <---- good read regardless

Kratom has seen therapeutic use in Thai ethnomedicine as an antidiarrhoeal, as a treatment for opioid dependence, and rarely to increase the duration of coitus.[21][22][23]

Kratom and its derivatives have been used as a substitute for opium as well as an aid for the management of opium withdrawal. - Wikipedia Mitragyna Speciosa

It's been known to Western researchers in the literature since at least the late 80s and has been distributed on-line from the mid-2000s onwards, so we're coming up to about 10 years of "street" usage now. It's not an unknown compound. I'm pretty confident in saying that kratom is addictive.

"The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans, including its efficacy and safety, are not well-studied"<---- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

I imagine if you go through 100gm a day of the stuff, yeah. The dose matters and the frequency of use matters, obviously. If you snorted 10 milligrams of heroin once a month would you get dependent? Probably not. 10mg once every hour? Yeah.

This statement only refer's to the μ-opiod receptors, so YES I agree. HOWEVER these are not the only receptor's being contacted by the plant. I am simply stating we do not know enough.

Personally I do not believe that Kratom can Treat opiate / opioid dependency, that is a tad bit ludacris. But I stand firm IMO that some of the other compounds inside Mitragyna Speciosa MAY HELP PREVENT a human from becoming addicted to the herb, It's a cocktail of alkaloids.

I will leave it at this

The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans are not well studied. <----- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

Therefore we should all be cautious.

AGAIN SEIKO:

I just thought your initial comment sounded as if Heroin and Kratom have the same safety profile, I just did not want there to be any lack of information present if someone were to just scroll across this thread.

EB

 

[al-laddin]

what about te ceiling effect seiko? And the opiod antagonism action. These are some of the properties that are argued by pro kratom people, people with first hand experience like me. And I can tell you from first hand experience that often times ,the severity of it depends on the strain, I can get severe dysphoria trying to catch a more intense buzz. I mean I would have been fine at 6 grams but I decided to take three more, Now I feel HORRIBLE. Ive always thought that this ceiling effect was a pretty good preventative action......I can tell you first hand that I still use the same amount daily that I used when I first started two years ago and I believe it to be because of the other active alkaloids....If I were taking the same amount of oxy just as gratuitisley as I take kratom I think Id be in much more trouble. Might I add that I also use hard opiates once or twice a month? Kratom gives me a cushioned landing. Ive been doing this for at least two years and my dosage to kratom has not inreased, although it does fluctuate... Ive been using a total of 10-14 grams a day for 2 years. No side effects. Withdrawal has been shitty but mild and lasts about 3/4 days. I strongly believe kratom is a self-regulating opiod I dont know if mytraginine itself or its the other alkaloids present but something in it doesnt allow you to party too hard with it. It absolutly is NOT NEARLY as addictive as true opiates. I beliueve most people who use kratom will step over to the dark side and use extracts....once you do that...you are no longer playing in the safety zone.

 

[al-laddin]

I'm not arguing with you, however you mods will take things to the grave.... So in that case we can all learn ( like usual )



You fail to mention any Yohimbine alkaloids, I am not saying this is a panacea ( solution ) and I have no idea the content of Yohimbine alkaloids in Mitragyna Speciosa however it is tiny things like this that may " throw off " a possible long term addiction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2057541 <---- good read regardless

Kratom has seen therapeutic use in Thai ethnomedicine as an antidiarrhoeal, as a treatment for opioid dependence, and rarely to increase the duration of coitus.[21][22][23]

Kratom and its derivatives have been used as a substitute for opium as well as an aid for the management of opium withdrawal. - Wikipedia Mitragyna Speciosa



"The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans, including its efficacy and safety, are not well-studied"<---- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa





This statement only refer's to the μ-opiod receptors, so YES I agree. HOWEVER these are not the only receptor's being contacted by the plant. I am simply stating we do not know enough.

Personally I do not believe that Kratom can Treat opiate / opioid dependency, that is a tad bit ludacris. But I stand firm IMO that some of the other compounds inside Mitragyna Speciosa MAY HELP PREVENT a human from becoming addicted to the herb, It's a cocktail of alkaloids.

I will leave it at this

The pharmacological effects of kratom on humans are not well studied. <----- Wikipedia Mtragyna Speciosa

Therefore we should all be cautious.

AGAIN SEIKO:

I just thought your initial comment sounded as if Heroin and Kratom have the same safety profile, I just did not want there to be any lack of information present if someone were to just scroll across this thread.

EB

YOu can become dependant on kratom but its action does not allow the dependancy to be AS SEVERE as traditional opiods..That the key here. And kratom seems to be extremely easy to taper from....why is this? If I go on an opiod binge....I use till they run out...one after another..with kratom theres no way I can do that, thus my only option is to taper.....Seiko saying that its the same thing is UTTER BS and it seems that he must have a personal issue with the leaf without knowing much about it. It VERY MUCH CAN treat DEPENDANCE and it DOES....go over to opiophile forums and see for yourself!

 

[al-laddin]

On that note steer clear of extracts!!

 

[burn out]

YOu can become dependant on kratom but its action does not allow the dependancy to be AS SEVERE as traditional opiods..That the key here. And kratom seems to be extremely easy to taper from....why is this? If I go on an opiod binge....I use till they run out...one after another..with kratom theres no way I can do that, thus my only option is to taper.....Seiko saying that its the same thing is UTTER BS and it seems that he must have a personal issue with the leaf without knowing much about it. It VERY MUCH CAN treat DEPENDANCE and it DOES....go over to opiophile forums and see for yourself!

Yes I agree. I am a heroin addict who switched to kratom, I then tapered my kratom (which was MUCH easier than tapering heroin) and am now on day one no kratom. I took some DXM and feel pretty good. Slight WD but the DXM seems to be really taking the edge off. There is simply no way I would get off heroin this easy, kratom is a godsend.

 

[al-laddin]

Thank you burn out for your feedback....I have three friends who used kratom to get off of much heavier substances. One was IV heroin. On was a close family member so it does bother me when people act like just because its an opiod that it cant be used medicinally to get off heavier drugs. I mean shit suboxone is an opioid but its abuse potential is far less than that of oxy or heroin, and from what I understand kratom acts similarly as an opioid antagonist. Clearly it is not as recreational as heroin

 

[EarthBounded]

Ok in a nutshell I would say if you were to Isolate pure mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine and take dosages equivalent to traditional opioids then yes you would have the exact same addiction and withdrawal problems as these are obvious μ-opioid agonist compounds.

Kratom is just as addictive and dependence forming as every other opioid out there.

It would be more proper to state "mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine are just as addictive and dependence forming as ever other opioid out there"

Compare the number of people who complain about kratom w/d (lots)

Speculation, just like users who complain about w/d from cannabis here on BL.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

I can personally attest that kratom has withdrawal symptoms, but they are not severe. Kratom seems to be 90% psychologically addictive, meaning that habitual use results in mostly psychological withdrawal similar to being forced to stop gambling, shopping, having sex, etc. after forming habits and expectations of those activities. It doesn't actually make me physically ill when I cease use cold-turkey. No pains, shits, cramps, aches, fevers, nothing of the sort. I only experience cravings, and minor insomnia and restlessness that is easily overcome with 50-100mg diphenhydramine or cannabis. Oral cannabis seems to stop/mask any "withdrawal" effects completely. I'd imagine a benzo would too. After 2-3 days, normalcy returns in full swing, and cravings are pretty much reduced to "fond memories" as in "Yeah, I'm sure it would be nice right now, but I have none, so...oo look shiny squirrel!!"

Kratom withdrawal, FOR ME, comes from the simple fact that it has proven to be SO useful to my daily life that it just sucks to not have any, like driving to work everyday and then one day getting a flat and now you must walk. It sucks simply because you got used to the convenience of a car, but it doesn't mean life loses it's purpose because you lost a convenience.


I do believe it comes down to will power. If you are weak-willed, have nothing going on in your life, no hobbies or involvement, no confidence and nothing to identify with, then yeah, something as simple as an anxiety-relieving relative of coffee, or a stubborn girlfriend, or a flat tire might be the thing to ruin your life. I dose on various potent strains at 8-9g weighed out, 2-3x every single day, usually after I wake up (in place of coffee) and around lunch time, and then occasionally after work. I have stopped this habit cold-turkey multiple times, from 100mph to 0 FLAT, and the absolute worst thing that happens was the first night can be restless, which again, was remedied by some Benedryl. I've also experienced periods of abstinence where absolutely NO negative symptoms arrive at all. As a matter of fact, when I do stop, I always notice a spike in creativity, I notice my environment becomes more colorful and vibrant (probably due to constantly having constricted pupils), music takes on more spacial quality akin to low doses of psychedelics! That's a withdrawal!?! Sign me up!!

We're not talkin' about the devil's lasso here......but as always, everyone is different.



If kratom really does have it's grip on your life, then I would try to supplement some other equally as benign herbs and ethnos like kava and kanna to help you withdraw and taper off.

 

[EarthBounded]

If kratom really does have it's grip on your life, then I would try to supplement some other equally as benign herbs and ethnos like kava and kanna to help you withdraw and taper off.

I am not too familiar with Kanna but supplementing Kava daily is a terrible idea.

 

[al-laddin]

Really^^^ I thought Kava was not habit forming...it does act on GABA in a minor way....nothing like benzos. From what I understand its relatively harmless but you probably don't want to take it for years at a time

 

[Mycophile]

SEATTLE STRANGER: I couldn't quote you for some odd reason.



I just wanted to point out that this is how it is FOR YOU but I've read many accounts on here saying otherwise.

I personally am a noob to Kratom, having only done it on 7 seperate days, but others in this thread have referred to Kratom withdrawal as "a living hell with joint pain, restlessness, anxiety, insomnia, naseau, hot and cold flashes" and other symptoms.

I'm sure you know more about Kratom than me, but I wouldn't want someone inexperienced reading this to assume that Kratom withdrawals are easy and no big deal to go through.

I personally am going to assume that they are terrible so I don't ever have to go through them because if they are as bad as SOME posters have said they are FOR THEM...that's more than I want to have to go through.

It sounds like your personal brain and body chemistry makes Kratom withdrawal easy for you, but just from what I've read I don't believe that Kraotm is 90% psychologically addictive only, as it's an opioid and opioid's have serious physical withdrawal symptoms.

 

[Berdo tm1]

Again soooo much conflicting info.

I definitely thought sekios statement that its a bad as heroin to be extreme and seemed more related to personal bias than actual factual basis. Maybe you had some bad withdrawals from it?

What no1 else has mentioned yet in kratoms defense to sekios attack are that its only a partial agonist right? so that alone means it will be less addictive doesnt it?

It was good to see some others give a more level headed defense of it.

I thought recently that is the trouble with anecdotal reports. However can we not say that its obviously less harmful over a population cos in thailand it has been used for over a thousand years and its a non event for them right? If it was as bad as heroin then there would be a ton of literature over the centuries telling of the devil of kratom wouldnt there?

Just like how all since the written word has been in the western world ppl have spoken of the trouble alcohol causes.

From what i gather kratom is indeed alot more like weed in that sense in that the mentions ive seen were just passing acknowlegments that it exists and nothing more.

Interested to hear what others think of this theory cos i am not really versed on whether it indeed has been worthy of mention in the eastern world but thats the gist ive gotten; that its just a non event due to its relative safety profile.

 

[Beavesmx44]

Bottom line: it has all the same w/d effects as other opiates when abused daily just to a lesser extent. Don't abuse it and it won't abuse you. Don't let anyone else's experience be your final decision on trying it or not. If you want to....great. If not.......great. You won't respond the same as anyone else posting here so............

 

[Mycophile]

Again soooo much conflicting info.

I definitely thought sekios statement that its a bad as heroin to be extreme and seemed more related to personal bias than actual factual basis. Maybe you had some bad withdrawals from it?

What no1 else has mentioned yet in kratoms defense to sekios attack are that its only a partial agonist right? so that alone means it will be less addictive doesnt it?

It was good to see some others give a more level headed defense of it.

I thought recently that is the trouble with anecdotal reports. However can we not say that its obviously less harmful over a population cos in thailand it has been used for over a thousand years and its a non event for them right? If it was as bad as heroin then there would be a ton of literature over the centuries telling of the devil of kratom wouldnt there?

Just like how all since the written word has been in the western world ppl have spoken of the trouble alcohol causes.

From what i gather kratom is indeed alot more like weed in that sense in that the mentions ive seen were just passing acknowlegments that it exists and nothing more.

Interested to hear what others think of this theory cos i am not really versed on whether it indeed has been worthy of mention in the eastern world but thats the gist ive gotten; that its just a non event due to its relative safety profile.

Sekio didn't say it was "just as harmful" as heroin he said it was "just as dependence forming"...obviously he knows there have been no overdoses from Kratom alone and only a few deaths by mixing it with other substances.

And I think he knows more about it than probably anyone else commenting here, but I don't really understand why he'd say that.

I personally will say that it's true that Kratom has a "ceiling effect" just from the 9 times I've tried it, and that if you take just the LITTLEST bit too much you will feel like absolute shit and all the euphoria goes away.

I don't know if that happens with heroin, but I doubt it, and it doesn't seem to happen with opiates like Oxycodone where in my experience the high just kept getting more intense the more I took...so that would seem to be a deterent to people overdoing Kratom in single doses, but not in terms of the frequency that they dose.

Sekio has mentioned using Kratom, so I don't think he sounds biased against it, but I don't know jack shit really.

But I didn't like Seatle Stranger's saying that he didn't think that Kratom withdrawal is a big deal and that he compared it to the impact of a "flat tire or stubborn girlfriend" on a person's life, because it clearly is highly addictive from the accounts of many people on here and obviously that is just how it is FOR HIM personally.

 

[burn out]

well after two days in wd i caved in and bought a bag of kratom. while it is nothing like quitting heroin, kratom wd is bad enough that i have no energy, no desire to do anything if i go without it. i guess i am gonna try to taper down more by spacing out my doses as much as possible.

 

[spadedstars]

I tried kratom once. I was given it for pain and instead I spent most the day sick as hell. I took 4-ho-met to try to help and it didn't. I know that I will be coming into more kratom and I'm not sure if I should go ahead and try it again but in a smaller dose or just forget about it completely.

 

[Berdo tm1]

what was your usage like to get into w/d in the first place?

well after two days in wd i caved in and bought a bag of kratom. while it is nothing like quitting heroin, kratom wd is bad enough that i have no energy, no desire to do anything if i go without it. i guess i am gonna try to taper down more by spacing out my doses as much as possible.

 

[Berdo tm1]

I was thinking kratom is probably the safest funcitonal stim after caffeine isnt it compared to my other options of random research chemicals with no history of use, amphetamine (always felt fucking toxic even at small doses), or modafinil.

modifnil seems fairly safe but being the hypochondriac i worry about what the long term effects so wouldnt feel comfortable with any kind of semi regular use -once a week or so- which i would be looking for whereas with kratom at least you pretty much know what you're getting. so addiciton is the only thing you have to manage.

So if used as a functional stim for productivity (rather than every day as anti depressant as i first suggested) it would probably be the best option vs the above mentioned substances dont you think?

how does it compare to amphetamine on the sitmulaiton side i know the other active ingredietns will make it different but ive heard it likened to it a few times. amps were too strong for functional use ime exp anyway but if it is a bit in between caffeine and amps that would be ideal.

 

[liftedgift]

To anyone thinking kratom causes liver damage, I've been using plain leaf bali for over 2 years now, near daily use, and have had my liver checked with no problems. Not saying that 100% confirms anything but I feel like people have a huge fear of their liver getting fucked for some reason. But I'll probably be calling it quits here soon with the kratom. It was really good to me these last 2 years, got me through probation without doing any stupid shit over cravings for drugs. It also was fucking awesome the first few months as far as motivation goes. I loved a good kratom n caffeine mix, work was a breeze.

It has its negatives though, I feel like absolute shit every day when I wake up until I dose. The only time I tried to get off of kratom just to see how bad the WD was, I took phenibut for 3 days and it knocked all the physical aches away and I was fine. The boredom kicked in around day 5 and I went back to kratom. Now that I can smoke I feel like weed can be my nighttime reward and something I can look forward to each day to combat the boredom/depression.

Overall though, kratom has been very good to me. It made me think differently when I first started, almost how psychedelics make you think. Hard to describe but it made me more empathetic(to have empathy?) and also introspective. But, I feel like I need to move on at least for a while. Always easier said than done.

 

[sekio]

To the people calling me out as some sort of kratom hater: I'm twice the scientist you'll ever be, guys! You can get a GCMS and then come talk to me about your findings. If you're jamming kratom powder in your face and reporting bioassay results, that's not really "analysis".

I do GCMS testing on the kratom I consume. Extract the leaf with methanol and chloroform. Barring a few exceptions, the major alkaloid is always mitragynine, 60-70% of the plant's alkaloid balance. The remaining alkaloids visible to me are things like isomers of mitragynine, rhynchophylline/corynoxines, and dehydrogenated/demethylated analogs. I don't believe for a second that there is a superactive compound in there that prevents addiction. I've looked at alkaloid extracts too. Some extracts have no alkaloids in them, some are 100% alkaloid material. The good stuff has little crystals in it and looks sort of like instant coffee. The amount of any yohimbe-related alkaloids is trivial at best. Again, it's stuff like mitragynine and its desmethyl analog.

Mitragynine is a full agonist at opioid receptors. That's been proven. There's no evidence that it harms the liver directly. I've heard of stuff like bile duct blockages caused by low intestinal motility, though. That's probably just from the opioid effects. People get the same sort of blockages on drugs like morphine. Mitragynine also has activity at adrenergic receptors, it's structure is very similar to other agonist like rauwolscine.

I have a feeling that most of the differentiation of effects is psychological. I don't see a lot of difference in alkaloid profile between "stimulating" and "sedating" strains, aside from a slightly higher alkaloid concentration in the sedative ones. I believe that mitragynine on its own has dose-dependent effects. Sort of like DXM... there's at least two 'plateaus'. At lower doses it's mostly adrenergic and stimulating, at higher doses it gains an opioid activity.

To put things in perspective, heroin has been around for more than 100 years and opium has been known for thousands. Just because there is a history of use doesn't make them risk-free. Just because it's a natural plant product doesn't mean you get to use it every day and get away with it. Regular opium use probably isn't harmful physically, but you'll still get dependent.

Also, whoever thinks cannabis doesn't cause dependence needs to move to the West Coast and become a habitual pot smoker. It's hard to believe that there are no withdrawal effects at all when you just can't eat, or get restful sleep without a few tokes. Just because you can ignore the signs of withdrawal, doesn't mean they're not there.

I'm not making any claims about the safety or efficacy of kratom, nor saying you can't take it on a regular basis. I just want to be absolutely crystal clear that kratom is indeed an opioid drug, and it should be treated like one. It doesn't exert its effects through magic. It's an opioid. It is entirely possible to overdose and kill or injure yourself on too much kratom if the stars align just right and you're especially reckless. Anyone saying otherwise is a liar... No drug is 100% perfectly safe. Someone could even OD on ayahuasca if they put their mind to it.

Have there been many kratom fatalities? Obviously not or it'd be banned. Could there be in the future? You bet.