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Are you a native of Vanuatu who worships Prince Phillip as a divine entity? ;)


Not a divine being, but personality-enlightened. Personality evolution is classed as something different than spiritual development (in Theosophy, etc.). It means gaining control of your physical, emotional, and mental bodies to do as you want in this world.

Sometimes you focus on one or the other. Both are important. Or if you can't master your personality it doesn't matter how far along you are spiritually.
 
I started smoking cigarettes when I was in my early teens. The first time I quit at 23 I made it a year and then the whole grounding ritual of having a cigarette drew me back in. Tobacco smoking has been used that way for centuries. But then again, so has tea, a much healthier alternative. I quit again for good (both times cold turkey) at 25 for good and have never even wanted to go back but that was because I addressed the need for the ritual part of the habit, not just the nicotine withdrawals. At first, I replaced it with coffee which proved to be an unhealthy alternative.8) Now, I use breathing/centering. I guess you couldn't really call that a ritual but it gives me what the ritual gave me: a pause in whatever chatter my mind was dishing up, an intentional place of respite, an activity that engages my body and thus calms my mind. Since my mind naturally is pretty much like an eleven year old boy on adderall let loose in a boardwalk arcade these calming grounding moments are better not just for me but for the world around me.=D
 
The fact that you've quit numerous times shows me that it's not an effective method for quitting permanently.
This is a harm reduction forum; I don't think it is wise, personally, to promote drug use as a cure for drug use.

it is an effective means of giving me control over addictions the last time i smoked i was dating a smoker. when we broke up, i stopped. i also used it to quit morphine/methadone. right now i have an abscessed tooth - i'm taking my prescribed narcotics as directed. i won't binge, i won't fall off the wagon, whatever that means. after i have the tooth pulled, i'll plant the remaining pills in the ground and harvest some herb, which i find useful for relaxation rather than use them. do you know any former morphine/methadone addicts who can do this?

wtf is the difference between saying ibogaine can do this and DXM? there are drugs that cure addiction. the 12 step process is a form of self torture based on ignorance of the sociobiological origins of addictions. it's mindless for people to live their lives like that when they can really be free of the cravings just by controlling their diet.
 
wtf is the difference between saying ibogaine can do this and DXM?

Simple answer: ibogaine isn't something I've had dependency problems with; nor is it something I have ever heard of anyone having dependency problems with. Cigarettes may help cure sugar addiction, and contribute to weight loss, but they're addictive and they're bad for you... Same goes for amphetamines. I don't see how you can sensibly lump all drugs (or, at least, those with the potential for curing other drugs) together.

Wasn't heroin developed as a cure for opium?

This is a harm reduction forum.
I don't think it's appropriate to suggest DXM to cure tobacco, unless the situation demands it.
If people can quit tobacco (and they can) without using DXM, that is the better alternative.
Isn't it?

...

For the record, ibogaine should also be a last resort... and there aren't a lot of people (who've actually had ibogaine) suggesting that it be used for nicotine addiction... I know of a couple of staff members who've had ibogaine to cure opiate addiction, but even they don't suggest it (correct me if I'm wrong) unless it is a last resort.

I quit methadone without using ibogaine therapies.
I'm still going to use iboga at some point, but the TA version (for psycho spiritual purposes).
I've seen people have bad trips on DXM. I've seen people freak the fuck out.
And, if we can avoid that, I don't see why we would chose not to.

...

How you going, willow?
(Ready to whip out the cough syrup yet? ;))
 
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Yeah I'm one of the guys who used ibogaine to cure opiate addiction, and I definitely recommend it as a last resort. For me, I was in and out (almost exclusively in) of opiate addiction for 10 years and I was to the point that I really believed I couldn't do it, and I was so depressed I wanted to die. I finally decided to use ibogaine and it was a beautiful thing that helped to save my life.
 
I am grateful that I can say I have never been addicted to cigarettes. But I have witnessed people close to me trying to give them up. It is tough. My mother died of cancer and smoked until the day she died. She tried to quit, but after facing the fact that you're dying, to give up that thing that brings you peace seems useless. MY SO successfully quit a few years ago. He says the thing that worked for him was changing his environment because it forced him to change his habits. Stay strong, welcome the change, you can do it!
 
I fancied myself as a self-taught shaman. I laugh at myself for still clinging to that label, but part of the reason it was such a powerful developmental stage for me was that it transformed the way I look at drugs. My ultimate goal is to transcend drugs, but it hasn't unfolded the way I imagined it happening. Not one bit. In some cases, with the right mind-set taking a drug to help overcome a struggle is the sanest thing a person can do. The intent matters a lot, and we'll always find horror stories where a person takes advice meant for one individual and embarks on yet another slippery slope thinking to themselves "what is good for the goose is good for the gander." I've heard of shamans treating festering infections that would not heal with human excrement applied topically on the wound. Obviously, this would kill most people so with my limited understanding I would never give this advice to someone.

I realize tobacco is holding me back. I now find myself ready to continue going deeper into my experience after taking a long pause from that single-minded focus. I discovered breathwork early in my journey and practiced it with dedication. Still, my life fell apart. Who knows if that was what was meant to happen, but I'll tell you, it was exquisitely painful and confusing. I used psychedelics to find a new path. That fell apart too. Very painful and confusing too but with a very different quality. Now I want to go back into the breathwork and tobacco is suffocating that effort. I've already come to the intuitive realization that a κ-opioid agonist is required for me. My efforts to quit on my own have been like fighting gravity. My short list of substances is Ibogaine, DXM and Salvia. Tantrics comment to me holds personal meaning but I always take responsibility for my choices. So in that context it was very appropriate for me.
 
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Simple answer: ibogaine isn't something I've had dependency problems with; nor is it something I have ever heard of anyone having dependency problems with. Cigarettes may help cure sugar addiction, and contribute to weight loss, but they're addictive and they're bad for you... Same goes for amphetamines. I don't see how you can sensibly lump all drugs (or, at least, those with the potential for curing other drugs) together.

most people who use drugs know jack shit about drugs. you need to have some idea of the structure and pharmokinetics of the shit you’re trippin on. now i’m gone school y’all, in the name of harm reduction. listen, you can call drugs by their structure, their effect on your behavior or what neurotransmitters (NTs) they affect. meth and coke are stimulants, both simulate/increase dopamine, but coke also works on norepinephrine. once you’re addicted to certain opiates, their dopamine effect makes them partial stimulants. benzos and alcohol are sedatives, but also are dopaminergic, like all drugs that cause hardcore addiction.

serotonergic drugs are such as mushrooms, LSD, DMT, etc. you feel joyous instead of pleasurable and hallucinate. MDMA is a mixed dopaminergic/ serotonergic drug at some magic ratio that is its own thing. dissociative drugs are the other hallucinogens – PCP, ketamine, MXE, DXM, ibogaine etc. They work on NDMA (just say the letters) and less so on dopamine and serotonin. ibogaine is famous for interrupting and curing, long term, addictions, but the others work to various degrees, too. pot, THC and all the cannabinoids are on a different circuit altogether, one that’s poorly understood.

the mammalian mind possesses an inherent capacity for addiction. logically, the addiction mechanism evolved for a reason, that is, at one time the capacity for addiction was a prosurvival trait. when one examines the actual process of addiction, it’s origin becomes clear. the mammalian mind has a feedback loop that makes prosurvival behavior, such as eating high fat/protein foods or copulating, pleasurable. not only do we enjoy such activities, but once we get used to engaging in them, it is unpleasant to stop. the neurochemical involved seems to be dopamine, which is related to pleasure/pain.

this bit of information helps us understand the minds of birds and reptiles in that we can see that this trait/capacity is not present. ever tried to raise a baby bird? it will starve sitting in front of food. you offer birds food that is fun to play with, not food that tastes good. it is not that birds don’t enjoy eating, but that they don’t enjoy eating (or screwing) one thing any more than any other thing, and they stop eating when they are no longer hungry.

mammals, on the other hand, eat and reproduce to excess, not because they have to,but because they want to. and when push came to climatic shove, the extra fat and babies let mammals survive the extinction that killed the dinosaurs. this is the first part of the riddle of addiction: how dopamine killed the dinosaurs.

okay, now, let’s use this theory to look at our own behavior. ever wanted something to eat, stood in front of a full pantry, and still found no satisfaction? we must understand that there is a very big difference between foodcraving and hunger. very few americans ever experience real hunger. foodcraving is a very different feeling – it is feeding the monkey, the addiction, and has nothing to do with whether or not your body needs nourishment. likewise, it seems that the sex-based process is expressed in modern society through pornography. it may very well be that males and females relate to sex differently, and that it is mostly males that become addicted to porn.

this theory also puts a different spin on the idea of drug addiction. for one, we can divide drugs into those that work on dopamine: ethanol, nicotine, cocaine, amphetamines, ghb, opiates, etc, and those that don’t: THC, caffeine, LSD, tryptamines, etc. Those that don’t work on dopamine are either nonaddictive, or addictive in a wholly different manner. And when it comes to dopamine drugs, there is only one addiction: the addiction to dopamine. how you go about adjusting your dopamine balance is largely irrelevant. the truth of this is demonstrated by the phenomenon of addiction transference. quit drinking, and take up smoking. quit smoking and take up junk food. go to a narcotics anon meeting, and the room will be dense with cigarette smoke and self-delusion. to be free of a dopamine addiction, you must give it all up: the drugs, the foods and (if applicable) the pornsex.

now for some deep theory. in buddhist philosophy, souls return again and again to this world because they are addicted to sensation. the evidence of our senses, watching a sunrise or smelling a flower, provides a spark of pleasure. this pleasure soon fades and leaves an emptiness that can only be filled by more and more intense sensation. joy, which comes from spirituality and is defined as an absence of suffering, is entirely different from pleasure in that it is not ephemeral or transient. in order to attain enlightenment, a being must give up its addiction to pleasure and seek out spiritual joy.

so, we now see that dealing with a dopamine/drug addiction is spiritual practice for the bigger task of dealing with an addiction to sensual reality. as is the creed of AA, addiction is a spiritual disease that requires a spiritual cure. furthermore, becoming an addict and recovering is the perfect kind of suffering: that which leads to personal growth. in buddhism, the purpose of suffering is to make growth possible. pain is the only real teacher. we can infer that there is a higher purpose in the evolution of the addictive mechanism – because we have the capability of being addicted to drugs or dopamine, we also have the capacity to break the overall addiction to reality.

on to dopamine again. pleasure/dopamine rush is the carrot, but where is the stick? it seems that when the brain notices an abrupt shift in dopamine levels, it produces an enzyme which breaks down MAO, another enzyme that breaks down neurochemicals. this is logical: you are used to high amounts of dopamine and suddenly you aren’t getting it anymore. to conserve, the brain stops breaking down existing dopamine, making it seem to go further. unfortunately, this places hell with neurochemistry in general, and the experience is subjectively very unpleasant. the full implication is that being in a state of addictive withdrawal is equivalent to taking a MAO-Inhibitor, and any drug that you take while in withdrawal will seem much more powerful. the MAO-I effect of withdrawal has been experimental verified, though it has never been linked to an overall metatheory of addiction. (this is iffy, needs more research)

anyway, that’s how dopamine killed the dinosaurs, and why dopamine is going to kill the usgov. oh, yeah, and why buddhism is the best religion ;-) your mileage may vary.
 
that was the neurochemical vehicle, sui generis western buddhism. but sure - no one likes it. not a big seller. do you know god's actual final message? GROW UP OR DIE. yeah, they couldn't find a messiah to deliver it after they nailed the 'be nice to each other' guy to a post. go figure. 8(
 
Okay, buddy.

Yeah I'm one of the guys who used ibogaine to cure opiate addiction, and I definitely recommend it as a last resort.

Can you explain why it should be reserved for a last resort situation?
Is it potentially traumatic, like other intense (psychedelic) experiences?
 
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the DXM cure is also not pleasant. basically, the combination of withdrawal and DXM induces a profound religious experience. your gods come and have a talk with you. a serious talk. AA/NA are right - addiction is a spiritual disease that requires a spiritual cure, its just that their cure sucks ass. it's not dangerous to your body, but its very dangerous to your state of mind. you're not the same after. how could you be? it very much feels like rebirth.

all the psychopharmacologists are trying to create a version of ibogaine that cures addictions but its trippy. it will never work. it's not the drug that cures the addiction, its the religious experience it invokes. that's where the long lasting successes come from - you have to recreate your life in the vision the gods/spirits give to you. it ain't fun. but when you're done, serotonin is singing in your brain for a month. you watch a sunrise and feel bliss. that's freedom from addiction. then you go eat the same old crap as always, get addicted to food again, and it stops (but not for me).

for some reason, ForEverAfter, i think you might find this model a bit easier to deal with?
 
point taken. in prison, i learned to testify - to stand up and speak righteously about my beliefs, as a matter of survival. generally people in prison don't fuck with righteous MFs, so long as they really live by their code. but now, it seems i've become preachy. not attractive. it really is fun, though - and who knew? i used to be terrified of public speaking.
 
Can you explain why it should be reserved for a last resort situation?
Is it potentially traumatic, like other intense (psychedelic) experiences?

It probably is, though it wasn't for me. But, it can be dangerous, a few people have died (though they had heart problems). Mostly, it's expensive and it takes a lot of time and commitment, and I just have the feeling it's healthier to sort through stuff on your own. On the other hand, it helped me in my life is a multitude of ways... immediately after the experience resolved I felt like my old self again from 10 years before. I never dealt with PAWS, I never had another craving, and I had a strong desire to both eat well and get in shape (which I did and continue to do). So I don't know. I'm glad I did it, but I wouldn't recommend someone to do it who had been addicted for 2 months and still had the chance to relatively easily (compared to after many years of addiction) exercise self-control and stop the behavior.

I guess I'm not really sure. Probably the main reason is because the experience is extreme and can be quite difficult.
 
Thanks for sharing Tanric. You given this lots of thought and gave me a lot to think about with that post. Theres a bit of manic energy behind it which sometimes confuses the message some but its coming from a good place and it resonates with me. Best wishes on your journey.

I want share my understanding about AA/NA. People are opinionated about it : they either think it is the only thing that works or it is absolute garbage. I've mentioned before that I had issues with alcohol abuse. At the time I was seeing a therapist that had a very spiritual inclination. She radiated love and I felt a strong connection to her. It was the first time I opened up that deeply with someone about my psychospiritual struggles. It was also during the time I was hopelessly stuck due to depression and trying to finish up my doctoral dissertation. I was in a good position to graduate, having published more papers than my peers and fulfilled all the major requirements for the degree. It was hopeless though and I knew it. The harder I pushed the more I'd shut down. All her love, prayer and the space she created for me to share couldn't help me through it. The one sticking point between my therapist and I was her insistence that I attend AA meetings. I resisted it like you wouldn't believe. Not because of the spiritual aspects of it. That didn't bother me one bit. It was something else I couldn't quite put my finger on then. I promised her I'd attend a meeting because how could I judge something I had never tried, especially when the message was coming from someone I respected so much. I kept putting it off. Finally, in order to attend my first meeting I rewrote the 12-steps for myself: they became "The 12 steps of our awakening." It was far deeper and meaningful to me. When I finally attended I sat in the back and didn't speak. I was touched by the stories and the overall environment was benign. Still, I didn't like it. It horrified me when people introduced themselves as alcoholics after 20 years of sobriety. I mean, the message I got was you will carry this with you for the rest of your life. Only God can help you through it, but he is limited in his ability to truly help you.

I came to the conclusion that while AA/NA effective in many ways, it support most peoples major needs for sobriety except for one: the requirement that a person identify with their predicament as an identity. This is why change can take so long. AA is based on a miraculous experience by one individual but the fallibility of the individual came through in the message. Yes, spiritual experience is a fundamental aspect of change. It requires no belief structure except perhaps the belief/experience that we are more than our physical bodies. While AA/NA is one of the best things to come along for humanity in the west at the time, it based on 1930's technology and the bylaws are written in such a way that it cannot evolve with the times.

I think Robert Dilts' logical levels of change explains why an addict who is first forced to identify as an addict in order to receive the spiritual gift of change has such a hard time experiencing that shift. Why else would a 20 years sober alcoholic still experience cravings 20 years later? The logical levels of change is an established and effective model for understanding its short comings (short read):https://ansusconsultingblog.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/nlp-the-logical-levels-of-change/

Anyways, wanted to get that out of my system. I always hesitate to steer people away from AA/NA because in some ways it is one of the few things that can work. I'd just say that if you do attend, hold your identity as a sober individual that is not helpless to alcohol sacrosanct so you don't limit the power of God in the process.

According to this structure, identity is one of the most powerful levels of change short only of the spiritual level of change. With a mature identity one could overcome addiction rather easily, yet what is the first thing you say when you join AA/NA: "Hello, I am XYZ and I am an alcoholic"
 
that's another point - AA/NA creates victims. there is a direct link between this mentality and the kind of religion that is associated with the movement - an omnipotent god who has forgiven your sins so that if you just trudge through this life, the cravings being his test, when you die you'll get beautiful heaven. it teaches people to horde their misery, to exist in this indefinite state and just wait to die. i took IV morphine 3x a day for three months (i was trying to write a novel, which was actually going well, but i ran out of money and my arms got infected cause i'm diabetic and just suck at shooting up) then 60mg of methadone a day for another two months. that was years back - i quit. i'm not a fucking addict. recently my dad was giving me one lortab 10 a day for a while when i was having serious neuraglia - i saved them and traded them for weed, cause it works better. no AA/NA person could do this - they'd have to have the drugs locked up or dispensed by a sponser or some shit, and they'd binge if the got the bottle. drama fuck that.

but i'm not a doctor, i'm not a pharmacologist, i can't possibly know what i'm talking about. my IQ is 160 and i read pubmed for fun, but my opinion is worthless. i've never met a doctor who knows more about neurochemistry than me, but i should stop abusing cough syrup and go beg those high bitches for zombie pills.

have you seen this?

Memory-Erasing Drug May Help Prevent Meth Addicts From Relapsing

that's what medical science does for addicts - they erase your brain. me, i want you to drink some vomitcherry flavored syrup and have a long talk with your god....and no takers.

in my support meetings, it goes like this: yo, i'm tantric, and i ain't NOBODY'S bitch
 
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The fact that you've quit numerous times shows me that it's not an effective method for quitting permanently.
This is a harm reduction forum; I don't think it is wise, personally, to promote drug use as a cure for drug use.

As I said earlier, (I think) the user needs to learn to control their addiction.
DXM might be helpful, but there is more to quitting (and staying quit) IMO.

I think willow should try to do it without DXM, first.

In the wise words of Mark Twain. "Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times."
 
In the wise words of Mark Twain. "Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times."

okay, what do y'all want in terms of addiction therapy technology? do you want something that makes you never want to use the drug again?

i wanted control - the ability to turn an addiction off, period. hell, if i had a huge supply of morphine, i'd just right back in it and finish my novel. then i'd quit, no problem, just like i did last time. well, not 'no problem' = having a profound religious experience isn't 'no problem', but i can go into my room a hardcore junkie and come out squeeky clean 24hrs later. yes, this ability has made me a bit reckless at times, i did deliberately become a morphine junkie so i could write, but i knew i could quit when i decided that.

just for a minute, imagine what the world could be like, if it worked for everyone....well, the global economy would crash, as consumer capitalism is based on addiction, AKA buying junk. but after that.....
 
just for a minute, imagine what the world could be like, if it worked for everyone....well, the global economy would crash, as consumer capitalism is based on addiction, AKA buying junk. but after that.....

So sadly true.....buying junk, and moving it around the world on container ships so that it can be bought and then completely destroying bigger and bigger bites of the earth putting it in some landfill or just floating it out to sea....

Speaking of the sea however, I just went swimming in the ocean and it was soooooooo great. I don't do that much here--it's cold water and I usually don't get hot enough. But both those factors changed--ocean is about 5 degrees warmer than usual and it's been hotter than hell here so in I went. The beach was crowded with lots of tourists and locals both in the water and the whole time we were in one little leopard seal and one sea lion tracked us all and tried to play. I love it when they poke their little dog faces up out of the water.
 
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