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Social The Delphic Oracle - Know Thyself: P&S Social Ampitheatre of Doom

willow11 said:
Finding it amusing, watching my cat Maggie chase her own tail. She literally hunts the poor thing! :D
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My cat seems to be quite spiritually advanced. He adores humans and lays down with dogs and has transcended some of his own cat-nature. I also admire him as there's a real sense of "The holy spirit" about him.
 
I have a 3-legged cat. He got hit by a car and his personality changed instantly, like he'd seen something on the other side.
He's much more human-friendly than he was and - seemingly - much more aware of the fact that he is a cat.
He used to be a very anxious little creature. Now, he's totally content.
I'm convinced that he had an eye-opening near death experience.

I had another (albino) cat that was deaf, ages ago.
I ran over her, unfortunately (while coming up on acid).

She consumed six large caps of Amanita Muscaria that I'd prepared and left on the kitchen table for 5 minutes.
I monitored her throughout the trip. She walked around the house, drooling, and then fell into a deep transcendental state.
Including humans, she the only animal I have ever seen (in person) successfully achieve this state.
She died about a year later. I have no idea, to this day, why she ate the caps.

I saw a black kitten eating psilocybin mushrooms, once, when I was hunting.
She (I didn't check the genitalia, she just had a feminine vibe) was extremely friendly.
What compelled her to consume wild hallucinogenic mushrooms, and whether she'd done it before, remains a mystery.
The only other animals I've seen eating psilocybin mushrooms are various species of bird, including duck.
But, birds are scavengers. The strange thing, with cats, is they're extremely particular about food.
It's unusual for cats to eat something, especially in large quantities, without first recognizing it.

I'm not convinced that my cat knew what was going to happen when she consumed the Muscaria.
But, I'm not convinced it was an accident either...

When Muscaria caps turn concave, they collect rain water.
The water, absorbing the active ingredients, turns red.
This, I believe, is the origin of the Holy Grail myths.

When you have a fully transcendental Muscaria experience, time no longer exists. You experience an eternal state.
I suspect that my cat drank from a cap in a park, sometime before consuming the caps in my kitchen.
When I came back, after 5 minutes, and found them gone, I couldn't work it out at first.
 
Cats are so wonderful. I once read part of their nature is that they have a perfect balance of masculine and feminine energies. So they have all the feminine charm and masculine force at the same time.

This gives them a very strong presence so you can't really ignore them. Although not everyone likes it, for some reason, but I don't really understand what could make someone reject and not appreciate a creation like that (cats are self-aware and very proud too). Also, people who love dogs and hate cats are strange, although dogs are very loveable in a different way.

But I guess they might be a good role model for adrogyny or balance of masculine/femine that we're also striving for. I notice being strong in either or both gives someone a strong personality, while being weak in both makes someone very boring, like they can't channel either of the energies of creation.
 
Should be careful with animals and drugs. An uncommon mix... Maggie has a deep curiousity about weed; though she seems to focus on hands and gets interested when I'm chopping/rolling, so I think its more animal curiosity then any drive toward transcendance...:\

thenightwatch said:
i used to have a cat who would clean our dog's ears for her.
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Sounds very spiritually advanced indeed....;)

So couldn't sleep last night so got up and I took about 50mg of AMT at 3am (its 7.25am now) Feeling restless but very positive :)
 
Cats are indeed self-aware, there is no doubt in my mind, having lived with and loved 2 of them for almost 11 years. I also think dogs are but cats seem more intelligent to me on average, or maybe just in a different way... dogs are certainly more relatable and trainable, but then again, they are that sort of animal, if you're the alpha in their pack they want so badly to please you, whereas cats have their own agenda, which if you have a good relationship can include being loving and sweet with you and sometimes even doing what you want.

I also find that most cats exude a strong gender, though I couldn't see it as well before I had my own cats. It's so easy for me to tell what gender a cat is as soon as I am in their presence.
 
I am of the opinion that dogs are likely more intelligent, just due to their greater ability to learn to interact socially in more complex ways. Across a variety of species and particularly humans, density, variety, and complexity of social interaction appears to have impelled the evolution of increasingly complex neurology (or at least the two are very closely interlinked). At the same time, I only really form close personal relationships with cats...their personality dispositions tend to fit with mine, and they're more endearing to me in this way.

I also can't easily see cats as gendered, at least remotely intuitively.

ebola
 
Cats are more socially complex within their own species, though, aren't they? (I don't know.)
If you take conditioning/domestication out of the picture, are wild dogs more intelligent than wild cats?
You appear to be gauging other species intelligence (somewhat, at least) on how likely they are to interact socially with humans...?

The typical argument for dogs being smarter than cats is: it's easier to train dogs.
But, is that - really - an indication of intelligence... or, subservience?

You - often - can't train a highly intelligent person to repeat a mundane task, because they are too intelligent.
Intelligent people need to be challenged in school or they get disillusioned with education and under-achieve.
Albert Einstein may not have made a very good McDonald's employee, but that doesn't mean he's incapable (intellectually).
Similarly, cats aren't particularly interested in learning tricks... but, that doesn't mean they can't.

Since you're a scientist-type person (I don't know what you do for a living), do you know of any neurological studies comparing cats and dogs?

One thing about dog intelligence is, they're pretty inbred (in comparison to cats).
Some dogs are utterly idiotic (due to selective breeding), whereas cats are all fairly intelligent.
I don't think I've ever met a stupid cat.
 
Whether or not dogs are more intelligent then cats I can't say (and am not sure anyone can). But with dogs, it is thought that we co-evolved with them. We've had a more symbiotic 'working' relationship' with dogs then cats; cats serve very little function, whereas historically dogs were workers. A human can generally judge the size of a dog based on its growl. Try and judge the size of a horse through hearing it neigh. Whether a dog is intelligent or not, they have evolved to understand language and syntax from humans and so will always appear to comprehend us more rapidly then cats. Cats are stereotypically aloof and haughty, but I think that is because they have a more limited capacity to understand our language and so appear dismissive or uninterested by it.
 
I think cats co-evolved with us, also, to some extent.
From what I remember, both cats and dogs self-domesticated.
They approached us, we didn't approach them.

In the case of cats, they were attracted to grain silos due to the vermin.
They would catch, and eat, mice/rats/etc. (They did serve a function.)
And, over time, humans and cats formed a bond.

It happened much later than dogs, I guess. But that doesn't make them less intelligent.
Dolphins are more intelligent than both cats and dogs, despite being independent.

I communicate with my cats by whistling.
I have a series of whistling phrases that they comprehend.
If I open my front door and whistle for them to come inside, they will come inside.
Then there's the English Bobby whistle, when they're doing something wrong.
They don't understand as many commands as dogs, but I haven't trained them.

My youngest cat, Girly, is somewhat dog-like. She

She loves to play fetch.
I never taught her how to play.
She just likes chasing things.
If I flick a rubber band across the house, she will bring it back and drop it at my feet.
This goes on endlessly. She's so cute. I've done it with her for hours, when I'm stoned.
 
FEA said:
Cats are more socially complex within their own species, though, aren't they? (I don't know.)
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Yeah, the default organization of cats in the wild is something resembling a pride of Lions, ie, the feral cat colony. However, these feline groups don't typically undertake the same coordinated hunting as a group that we see with the wolf pack.

You appear to be gauging other species intelligence (somewhat, at least) on how likely they are to interact socially with humans...?
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I'm trying to gauge things more in terms of how they interact with each other, this presumably providing a springboard for socialization in human groups.

Similarly, cats aren't particularly interested in learning tricks... but, that doesn't mean they can't.
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Right. This is why trainability by humans is a poor gauge of cross-species comparative intelligence. In fact, most common-sense metrics for assessing animal intelligence seem dubious to me. My attempt was to look to other behavioral evidence, anchored in an evolutionary argument about the coevolution of more complex social organization and neurology. It's a bit speculative though. . .


Since you're a scientist-type person (I don't know what you do for a living), do you know of any neurological studies comparing cats and dogs?
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I honestly having thought about the matter that much thought. . .

One thing about dog intelligence is, they're pretty inbred (in comparison to cats).
Some dogs are utterly idiotic (due to selective breeding), whereas cats are all fairly intelligent.
I don't think I've ever met a stupid cat.
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Good point; so we'd want to compare mutt to mutt.

ebola
 
these feline groups don't typically undertake the same coordinated hunting as a group that we see with the wolf pack... I'm trying to gauge things more in terms of how they interact with each other
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Perhaps they don't hunt in packs because they don't need to, being more skilled hunters (which could be an indication of intelligence)?

Perhaps not, but I think it's difficult to make any sort of conclusions about their relative intelligence based on (as you say) selective observations.

I think cats are probably more intelligent, because I've spent a lot of time with both species and cats: appear to be better problem solvers; have more complex relationships; are identifiable by gender (as someone else said); and, they appear to have a wider spectrum of emotional states.

Dogs behave somewhat like stupid people.
And cats behave somewhat like intelligent people.
It's difficult to attempt to gauge either species intelligence, though, by comparison to our species.
Even neurological, I'd imagine, the same patterns would not necessarily apply.

Ants are, seemingly, organized and methodical. But they aren't intelligent.
Spiders are incredible hunters and they don't rely on packs, like cats, but are they intelligent?

What do you do for a living, ebola, if you don't mind me asking?
I'm curious.

I honestly having thought about the matter that much thought.
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Fair enough.
Sorry if I'm crapping on too much about cats.
Please feel free to ignore me.
I won't be offended.

:)
 
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My cats understand a lot of things that require some amount of intelligence (this is in relation to them being good problem solvers as FEA said above). For example, they understand that the sliding door I have to my bathroom can slide into the wall if you pull on it from the right to the left... I watched them figure this out one day after moving here. They're not strong enough to do it but they'll try and sometimes manage to move it a bit. They also understand doorknobs, though my doors are a bit sticky so again they're not able to actually open the doors; however, they'll get up there and put their paws on the knob and attempt to turn it. My female cat has a hiding place where she stores all of her objects (toys, socks, etc) that she likes to have, but she rotates them, keeping one toy out at a time. I once watched her drag them out, put the current/old toy back, and pick a new one, and then carefully put them back in the same order and same positions as they used to be in, with the old toy replacing the new one's position.

I have also met a dog like this, my ex's family dog who passed away about a year ago. She was so smart, you could tell her to take a piece of paper to someone in the house by name and she'd do it... she also knew all of her toys by name. But she never figured out sliding doors or doorknobs. I think intelligence is specific to different species. Dogs may be smarter in some areas and cats in others.
 
My cat always puts his paw against something he wants to open. Although he can't do it, but he knows that's how to do it and wants to show us. He also makes motions like he wants to dig in the floor. But cats seem to have very powerful instincts, like a well-programmed robot.

Dogs are way more linguistic, you can teach them an almost unlimited number of words as long as it has some form of significance to them. While cats will only take note of the things most important to them, like "food" and "fish". Part of that is also that they are much less interested in the human world than dogs are.

"Do you want fish?" and his name seems to be his favourite words.
 
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Yeah my cats come when I call their names (individually I mean, they definitely responds to their own names, and even the various pet names I have for them), but in general cats just aren't interested in being trained, like you basically said. They're independent creatures, I think they feel like it demeans them to try to teach them commands. Cats are not dogs at all... dogs want nothing more than to please you so they'll do commands. But cats just want to do their own thing, and if your thing jives with theirs, then they can be great and loving companions.
 
Perhaps we are missing the point a bit in comparing actual intelligence. Dogs have lived alongside humans long enough for both species to co-evolve. Its thought that dogs/canines lived at the periphery of humans for several thousand years, scrounging on our scraps and possibly guarding large kills, before being actually domesticated. Humans domesticated dogs primarily for utilitarian purposes, as protection, extension of sense, strong workers... We selected animals recipient to humans, with little fear and bread out human-specific agression. Dogs have shown the ability to learn the context behind word-sounds after one iteration of it. They can respond weeks later to it. This demonstrates a certain refined contextual and associative memory more then intelligence. If a feral domesticated dog pack has territory within the same range as a wolf pack, they tend to move their own homebase closer to human habitation, understanding that wolves, being wary of humans, will keep away. Dogs and humans have had a symbiotic relationship to the extent that we have both exerted selective pressure on each other.

The same cannot really be said about cats. In a sense, I think cats have a more refined sense of self and awareness, but they don't have a whole lot of use for humans, besides ornamentation. Their capacity to keep down populations of vermin shouldn't be discounted, but by and large they have existed with humans for aesthetic pleasure. They seem to have a wider intelligence then dogs, and a more refined physical intelligence, but it is an intellect that offers less value to humans, and might therefore appear to be less potent.

They are both creatures who have innately beautiful characteristics. I love the loyalty and eagerness of dogs, their desire to please and their desire to find fun and joy wherever they happen to be. I love how cats can be dramatic and showy, performing actions which seem redundant but have a degree of theatre to them (random grooming, sudden diversions from predictable behaviour), as if they are trying to tell us to be alert. Dogs are very subservient, or can be, whilst cats have little interest in subservience. I imagine they utterly dismiss the idea. :)

I wonder if we'll have domesticated any other currently wild animal in 5000 years (if the smouldering ruin houses life of course). Imagine if, for some reason, it was domesticated octopus.
 
Cats seem to have a lot of self-respect and admiration for their own nature. They know we find them beautiful.

The cat I have now turns on a whole charm-offensive whenever he gets the chance to show himself to a human being. He walks around and shows off his looks and personality and how much love he can extend to humans. It's like he gets a real high from it and tries to say "See, how lovely I am".

There are also some cats without that sense of pride and self-love about them but they seem more depressed. If a cat isn't loved by humans I guess it can end up with poor self-esteem. But most cats are very happy and have a good life. It's easy to give a cat a good life because it doesn't really need much of anything. That's one of the best things about them.
 
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