Tryptamines The Big & Dandy Bufotenine (5-HO-DMT) Thread - The Truth is Out There

[exo666]

Prep: Heated the 4 yopo seeds until the shells popped then removed all
the shell. Went for a fag and flicked all the ash into a cup. Ground
up the yopo to a powder with a pestle and mortar and added the ash. It
was around 3 parts yopo to 1 part ash. I had around 3 grams of snuff

T0000: Snorted a small line to see if it was as painful as other trip
reports had said. It was.

T0005: Decided to take it like a man and rail as much as possible in
one go. Racked up the whole lot in one line and got about half way
though it. Ignored the pain and did the rest up the other nostril.

T0006: Laid down on my bed to wait.

T0010: Pain in my nose had stopped. Decided to put some chill music on
while I waited. I got my phone out and immediately my arm felt heavy.
I dropped the phone and looked around my room. By now my whole body
felt stupidly heavy. Everything had a strange yellow haze to it.

T0020: The walls of my room began to look very liquid. When I closed
my eyes I saw faint swirling patterns that kept switching colour.

T0030: The CEVs were now so vivid I found it hard to keep my eyes
open. Time became so warped there's no way I can give an estimate. The
following entries are in order.

T????: I sank into a world of swirling colors and echoes. Completely
blocked out from reality. I loved it

T????: I snapped out of it into a fucked up version of my room.
Everything was moving around and wasn't the colour it should be. I
suddenly felt extremely sick and tried to stand up however my legs
suddenly had sharp stabbing pains though them and I collapsed. I
managed to crawl to the bathroom and emptied my stomach into the
toilet.

T????: After I finished, I remember sitting cross legged on the floor
with the lights off. There was a crack in the door and the light from
the landing was shining though it. I became enthralled with the light.
It started to take up my whole field of vision. I felt like I was
rushing though the light. I was aware of nothing but this all
consuming, beautiful white light. I felt amazingly peaceful.

T????: I came to on the floor of my bathroom feeling nothing but a
nice afterglow. Skinned up a joint and started to write this

 

[basement_shaman]

Just a quick information post about the toxins disappearing from yopo/vilca when it's heated. The bag from my supplier says "Yopo/vilca, anadenanthera colubrina", but since yopo is peregrina and vilca is colubrina, I can't be sure what it is.

Anyway, these are my results:

First batch:

300 mg yopo
270 deg. Celcius for 25 minutes
added 75 mg lime, some water
total weight would be 375 mg if it weren't for the heating
kneaded for hours
let sit for a day
slowly evaporate off water
total weight: 250 mg = 67% of original

Smoked all of 250 in three quick successive tokes.
NO side effects WHAT SO EVER (smoking just 100 mg of pure untreated yopo makes me almost vomit). Some euphoria, nice warm feeling in my head, around my eyes. Mild psychedelic headspace. I was on a mattress on the floor with a candle as the only light in the room (Shpongle playing in the background), I started drawing and when I snapped out of it about 20 minutes later I'd drawn a cool native american-esque face.

Second batch:
2030 mg yopo
180 deg. Celcius for 35 minutes
added 550 mg lime, some water
total weight would be 2580 mg if it weren't for the heating
kneaded for a while
let sit for a night
quickly evaporate off water
total weight: 1925 mg = 75% of original.

I haven't tried this batch yet. I suppose that I have enough to use it as a snuff, but I'm so afraid of the burn that I may end up smoking it. We'll see.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Bump....long time.

So chemistry knowledge has improved a bit, practical applications have been done with my knowledge since this thread was started. Specifically, I've become fairly good at extracting alkaloids, purifying them, and either making a clean base, or a dry salt if needed.

The other day (for fun) when cleaning up from preparing DMT fumurate, I remembered I had 100 of so of these seeds A. Columbrina and, followed the recipe I toasting 10 seeds (weighted just under a gram), when the seeds split open with a 'pop' I removed from the heat, placed into mortar, added cooking lime (.99USD/big bag at local Mexican grocery store) and water to make a paste.

Per recommendations, I added just a touch of anhydrous mag, sulfate to help dry out the paste. You don't want any water in there if you are going to use anhydrous acetone as it defeats the purpose of making acetone dried in the first place. Once the paste was dry and crumbly, I made several acetone washes, combined them all together (it was a yellow color, typical of acetone plant extractions that do not contain chlorophyll) but wanting the most pure product possible, and being somewhat impatient to see how much bufotenine I had isolated...I added FASA (fumuric acid saturated acetone) to my acetone/bufotenine solution.....as expected what looks like 40-50mg (from 10 seeds). So not a good yield, but from what I read it takes many more pulls to get the rest.

Do people only consume bufo base, or can this fumurate salt be used?

PS, the salt crashed out as nearly white. This method does get you a very pure isolate that would only need to be rebased if injecting the stuff is not an accepted route.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

I've really delved into much research regarding Anadenanthera peregrina recently. From the technical research I've done, I think I've gained a pretty good knowledge of this snuff.. So, there seems to be so much debate that is really moot in light of the real subject I think. Bufotenine is actually not really being discussed if you are talking about Yopo snuff. The reason the calcium oxide (shells, lime) is added is to convert the 5-HO-DMT into 5-O-DMT, which is facilitated by the kneading. (All of this is relating to the traditional method of preparation for Yopo snuff.)
So with Yopo, we're talking about 5-O-DMT. This is why if the drip is swallowed, rapid and often persisting nausea ensues, because of the conversion of the present 5-O-DMT back to 5-HO-DMT.
Is this correct? Or have I been reading sites that aren't right?

 

[wayab]

i don't know what is in the seeds but i do know they take you for quite a ride %)

 

[mi5]

How hard/intense effects, and what duration would you get, from 3mg extract vaporised?

 

[mi5]

Also how long would the on-set be....one would not want to take another hit, if the first one was still yet to come

Also this extract must be impure as its brown....dispite going through solvent washes / dissolving / filtering etc

 

[fibs]

What is 5 O-DMT!? Is it bufotenin or an analogue? Or is it unknown and considered an uncontrolled substance?

 

[Solipsis]

5-O-DMT would be the deprotonated form of bufotenin. It is negatively charged. It means that the H+ has "fallen off" due to certain chemical conditions.
Practically this has no meaning, it is not another drug with different effects, furthermore it cannot really exist stably without either the H+ or another positively charged chemical.

Another possibility is that someone has mistyped 5-HO-DMT or 5-MeO-DMT.

Where did you hear about it or read it? Hopefully you understand what I just tried to explain, but it is mostly a technical matter and not something that makes any big difference. In all practicality it is the same stuff as bufotenin, which is also called 5-HO-DMT of course.

 

[fibs]

There is a quoted post a few pages back that talks about it. Here's a link to the original thread. It is either too old to reply to or locked. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-61866-p-5.html I was initially curious about about calcium bufotenate which led me up to these posts. It's clear to me now that it doesn't exist, but something does happen and the final product is no longer bufotenin though similar. I was hoping that there would be more information on it by now and a consensus reached on exactly what it is. I wish I could ask the OP Enthropymancer as I have no doubt he's come to a pretty solid conclusion after all these years. I was also hoping that this mysterious compound is uncontrolled. I still have an inkling that in a smaller town there's a chance that if caught with such (in bulk) they may not identify it and one could possibly experience nothing more than holding time. Then again it's not hard to ship it to places use to this kind of stuff and the man is merciless. To me it looks incomplete, right? So I'd think it doesn't count, but I'm not that smart either.

 

[Solipsis]

The thread you link to is this very same thread, only a different view of it. I reread the thread globally and found that you meant post #56 (please next time provide the post number ).
We don't really allow discussion of drug dealing and practices like that here but I will say: be careful with assumptions about 5-O-DMT not being bufotenin, as is said in that post.
In a sense that is true but only as a technicality. You see, compounds that contain a group like the HO group in 5-HO-DMT are said to be "conjugated" with the deprotonated (meaning a H is lost) alkaline (meaning basic i.e. opposite of acidic) form, in this case 5-O-DMT. This is an equilibrium depending on de acidity (pH level).

What this means is that if you increase the pH, more and more bufotenin will exist in 5-O-DMT form and less will exist in 5-HO-DMT form. This equilibrium cannot be pushed 100% to one side, no matter what you do, because this is a logarithmic scale that will divide the concentration 10 times for every pH step without actually hitting zero. So there will always be trace quantities of 5-HO-DMT and they could bust you for that. Or exposure to any acid can reprotonate it.
I think people have been caught with 4-AcO-DMT which contained trace amounts of 4-HO-DMT, probably more from degradation that from synthesis impurity but the principle still holds true.

I think it is very peculiar that these other bufotenate forms are said to possess different qualities and I am skeptical until I hear more about it. Info can probably be found on the DMT Nexus but I suspect there is deperately complex and confused clandestine research still going on this topic.

Maybe the N-oxide is formed by messing with the bufotenin so much and this relieves the drug of a number of unwanted side-effects like feeling fucked up and running a purple color in the face.

 

[fibs]

Hey, I didn't say anything about dealin. I just said "in bulk." 8) But I hear ya. The risk is essentially the same except maybe in regard to quantity, but I know in some cases they have their way and manipulate how that's perceived too. It seems that there is a lot of unfinished work in regards to this chemical. I would bet that there are a few analogues that could be produced with the possibility of better effects. But like was saying. What do I know. I wish all the work was done for me! Thanks for your help. If your skepticism leads you to more information please bring it back here.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

It's simply not worth it. Don't believe the hype.

Actually, believe the hype. Bufotenine is definitely confirmed as a fully visionary substance, different from DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, but just as valid as either. And I have never even tried the fabled 'calcium' form. So far, just heating the beans till popping, deshelling, mashing to paste, drop water and baking soda, heat till dry....is enough for me to taste enough that...yeah this is a badass psychedelic. With baking soda, I suspect I am not fully base-ifying it because there is a 'bodyload' that starts upon exhaling and lasts a minute or two until the visionary effects begin...but it goes right away. Fully based bufotenine does not seem to produce this (so I read.)

When smoking the based beans (mixed with tobacco) the effect can get +++ with four-five hits, but usually I just take one for a 'marijuana-like' ++ effect that lasts 20 minutes or so. I will certainly work on the 'calcium bufotenine' form....and will eventually isolate the pure form when supply permits.

Any other BLers as amazing by this one as me? It's like the missing link.

 

[ShaggyFin]

2 questions.

1. Has anyone ever tried to apply the toad venom less directly. Maybe through ointment?
2. Would it be possible to make 4-HO-DMT with it?

 

[Morninggloryseed]

2 questions.

1. Has anyone ever tried to apply the toad venom less directly. Maybe through ointment?
2. Would it be possible to make 4-HO-DMT with it?

Not sure about #1 but #2 would be FAR trickier than synthing psilocin via the method in TIHKAL. You would have to burn off the 5-OH group and then hydroxylate the 4 position. Not practical.

 

[ShaggyFin]

Not sure about #1 but #2 would be FAR trickier than synthing psilocin via the method in TIHKAL. You would have to burn off the 5-OH group and then hydroxylate the 4 position. Not practical.

What about making DMT?

Has anyone tried like melting down toad venom as if you were going to smoke it (but don't), then eating the residue?

 

[ShaggyFin]

The thread you link to is this very same thread, only a different view of it. I reread the thread globally and found that you meant post #56 (please next time provide the post number ).
We don't really allow discussion of drug dealing and practices like that here but I will say: be careful with assumptions about 5-O-DMT not being bufotenin, as is said in that post.
In a sense that is true but only as a technicality. You see, compounds that contain a group like the HO group in 5-HO-DMT are said to be "conjugated" with the deprotonated (meaning a H is lost) alkaline (meaning basic i.e. opposite of acidic) form, in this case 5-O-DMT. This is an equilibrium depending on de acidity (pH level).

What this means is that if you increase the pH, more and more bufotenin will exist in 5-O-DMT form and less will exist in 5-HO-DMT form. This equilibrium cannot be pushed 100% to one side, no matter what you do, because this is a logarithmic scale that will divide the concentration 10 times for every pH step without actually hitting zero. So there will always be trace quantities of 5-HO-DMT and they could bust you for that. Or exposure to any acid can reprotonate it.
I think people have been caught with 4-AcO-DMT which contained trace amounts of 4-HO-DMT, probably more from degradation that from synthesis impurity but the principle still holds true.

I think it is very peculiar that these other bufotenate forms are said to possess different qualities and I am skeptical until I hear more about it. Info can probably be found on the DMT Nexus but I suspect there is deperately complex and confused clandestine research still going on this topic.

Maybe the N-oxide is formed by messing with the bufotenin so much and this relieves the drug of a number of unwanted side-effects like feeling fucked up and running a purple color in the face.

So, are you saying that making the Bufotenine basic with Lye could help?

 

[Solipsis]

Help with what?

As for your previous questions: no you cannot just cleave off the 5-HO to get DMT, let alone put a 4-HO on it. You can also not switch around the OH from 5 to 4 position.
A chemical reaction would be necessary to remove an alcohol group (OH), namely a reduction reaction. And you probably cannot just reduce bufotenin, it may just turn into a cyclohexanon.

I have no idea about toad venom ointment having been tried, what would be the point of an overly elaborate and difficult route of administration via dermal absorption? It would only be making matters complicated. Bufotenin can just be smoked.

Also making DMT or psilocin from bufotenin seems pointless when there is an abundance of DMT in certain plant matter and psilocin in mushrooms.

 

[ShaggyFin]

I have no idea about toad venom ointment having been tried, what would be the point of an overly elaborate and difficult route of administration via dermal absorption? It would only be making matters complicated. Bufotenin can just be smoked.

Also making DMT or psilocin from bufotenin seems pointless when there is an abundance of DMT in certain plant matter and psilocin in mushrooms.

The Venom has cardiac issues smoking, so Ointment would be the slowest ROA and possibly the best.

Ok, then what about the possibility of adding something like an extra DMT molecule, since there is an abundance. Or a Tryptophan or Chloroform or Acetone or something.

Can it be bk'd? Or NBOMe, it seems like you can slap mescaline onto anything.

And this seems worth bringing up

It's worth reading the paper by Jonathan Ott and you haven't done so, you bad boy. He uses pure bufotenine freebase extracted from seeds. The IV essays were with salts of bufotenine on prisonners in the fifties etc...

IMO it is very likely that lime frees bufotenine freebase from a salt of bufotenine and that is the reason of the psychoactivity of the snuff.

Ott uses ammonium hydroxide for freeing bufotenine base btw.

The formula given on wiki for Calcium Bufotenate appears to be wrong to me also.

Granted that bufotenine is a weak acid due to it's phenolic aspect, and it can theoretically yeld salts with alkalis, so that once lime has freed all alkaloids from the seeds it may further react, as it is likely to be in excess, with bufotenine freebase to yeld some calcium dibufotenate and possibly some basic Calcium bufotenate, none of which having the formula given in wiki.

Read the Ott paper in depth really.

10 mg of the calcium salt of bufotenin vaporized produces NO SIDE EFFECTS AT ALL, tons of visuals, just like DMT, but lasts much longer. In my opinion its one of the best hallucinogens there is. However, this is not the same bufotenin derivative tested above by the researchers and probably not the one you tested.

The calcium salt of bufotenin is similar to free base bufotenin tested by Jonathan Ott. Ott found free base bufotenin to be quite pleasant and hallucinogenic, unlike those tested above, and wrote a report on it that was published.

So when you ask is bufotenin hallucinogenic, the answer is YES for some derivatives and NO for others. Some derivatives, like bufotenin hydrochloride, are so water soluble that they don't enter the brain much at all. These form produce toxic bodily effects. Others, like the calcium salt, enter the brain easily and produce completely different effects in humans. This is something that separates bufotenin from the other hallucinogens.

Unlike most other hallucinogens in free base form, free base bufotenin is still somewhat water soluble and must be made less water soluble in order to enter the brain properly. The calcium salt of bufotenin is less water soluble, but even it is a little water soluble. At extremely high doses, much more than needed for full hallucinogenic effects, even the salt of bufotenin will start having toxic effects on the body.

Unlike many other hallucinogens, bufotenin is non-specific and affects 5-HT sites in the brain AND body, so in order to give it greater effects in the brain its water solubility must be reduced, allowing more of it to enter the brain. The more it enters the brain, the less it affects 5-HT sites in the body, produces less effects in the body and more effects in the brain. So its all about water solubility with bufotenin. If you want a highly toxic version, with little hallucinogenic effects, you use a salt form that's more water soluble than it's free base form (like bufotenin creatinine sulfate used in many of the horrible tests above). If you want strong hallucinogenic effects, and no body effects, you use a salt form that's less water soluble than its free base form (such as the calcium salt). If you want intermediate effects you use the free base form. Its fascinating how it works.

This explains why for hundreds of years shamans have added calcium hydroxide (or calcium oxide) to all their snuff containing bufotenin and never added any acids to it (which would make bufotenin more water soluble)! They aparently knew about this aspect of bufotenin long before we did. Absolutely fascinating.

Also, could Arundo Donax be a good source of 5-OH-DMT?

Edit:
I did some reading on another site and apparently you can extract DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and 5-OH-DMT from Arundo Donax safely using Naphtha.

 

[ShaggyFin]

Idea

5-OH-DMT suspended in Acetone. Add some Lye... What do you think happens? bk-DMT HCl maybe?

Possibly Chloroform or Chlorobutanol being involved could catalyze.