Tryptamines The Big & Dandy Bufotenine (5-HO-DMT) Thread - The Truth is Out There

[Morninggloryseed]

That is his real name as far as I am aware. It is the name he has been publishing under since the 70s.

 

[SanGaz]

That is his real name as far as I am aware. It is the name he has been publishing under since the 70s.

Hi, while ive got your attention, I was reading you use virola resin as a source of 5-MeO-DMT, is it smoked straight and untouched or is there an extraction process? There doesnt seem to be much info on the net about Virola theidora Resin.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

The actual resin can be snorted, smoked, or apparently eaten. All methods of intake have been observed. There are multiple reports from multiple sources of virola resin being rolled up into pills and swallowed. And there are beta-carbolines present in some virola that may explain this oral activity.

 

[SadAnt]

Calcium Bufotenate?

The psychoactive effects of the snuff called yopo (Anadenanthera Peregrina) or similar seem to have a strong visionary character. Reading about peoples experiences with various homemade snuffs confirms this, as do other sources.
The strange thing is that even though the main compound in the seeds of anadenanthera spp is bufotenin (and sometimes almost exclusively), and the effects of bufotenin is mainly peripheral and not psychoactive, users still report a strong visual and psychoactive response.
Reading about yopo on wiki I saw that the article mentioned the conversion of bufotenin to its calcium salt which was referred to as calcium bufotenate, and which would be able to cross the BBB and give the known yopo experience.

Naturally, as I don't trust wiki I wanted to check other sources but I was unable to find any and hence this post.
Has anybody else heard of this before?. If bufotenin is indeed converted to calcium bufotenate by the mixing of lime (calcium hydroxide) and the bufotenin contained in the seed material it is very interesting because it gives a good explanation of the effects of yopo. It also gives an answer to the question if bufotenin is a psychedelic in the same sense as DMT, which is, yes as long as the bufotenin molecules can reach the brain it is!.

If you know anything about this please post!.

 

[secretagents]

Jonathan Ott says that pure bufotenine base is psychoactive via all natural routes except rectal if I read correctly his paper.

http://www.erowid.org/archive/sonoran_desert_toad/ott.htm

 

[egor]

^^it is quite unpleasant though

 

[SadAnt]

But...
bufotenin injected iv causes only minor visual changes. And if the traditional way of preparing the "snuff" causes a full blown psychedelic experience, you must know that there's something missing.??
I have myself tried a low dose and I wasn't disappointed.

I think this is a good area of research because it could be applied to other substances too.
I guess the only way of doing a proper experiment would be to prepare a sample of A. peregrina according to the instructions on the net (using the lime at the same time as you use the seeds ,baking powder etc.). And then try to react it with the Ca+Oh- and use it in the same way. (I realize that you would have to administer it nasal or some other non-oral way because the oral route would convert it back to bufotenine!). So please, if there's some other chemists out there please post.

Most so called Head shops market these seeds as a potent source of DMT but most studies have found that the seeds contain bufotenin and only traces of DMT, MeO-DmT. etc.

I hope that you have some comments because I need them.
I will self- experiment!!.

 

[Beenhead]

it is odd though that shamans, who had no modern analytical techniques like GC/MS or IR or NMR knew that these seeds had something in them similar to traditional Ayahuasca, if they are not psychedelic at all...

 

[secretagents]

It's worth reading the paper by Jonathan Ott and you haven't done so, you bad boy. He uses pure bufotenine freebase extracted from seeds. The IV essays were with salts of bufotenine on prisonners in the fifties etc...

IMO it is very likely that lime frees bufotenine freebase from a salt of bufotenine and that is the reason of the psychoactivity of the snuff.

Ott uses ammonium hydroxide for freeing bufotenine base btw.

The formula given on wiki for Calcium Bufotenate appears to be wrong to me also.

Granted that bufotenine is a weak acid due to it's phenolic aspect, and it can theoretically yeld salts with alkalis, so that once lime has freed all alkaloids from the seeds it may further react, as it is likely to be in excess, with bufotenine freebase to yeld some calcium dibufotenate and possibly some basic Calcium bufotenate, none of which having the formula given in wiki.

Read the Ott paper in depth really.

 

[egor]

^^that paper was the best info on bufotenin I have found yet

 

[Junglistvibe]

I thought yopo seeds were a source for DMT... At least I think I saw a smartshop offer it as that. "Snort the seeds for a DMT trip" or something like that.

 

[DiLuc]

Shouldn't it be bufotenin caltrate? The salt is usually second. And wouldn't calcium in the brain be a bad thing?

 

[Ylide]

The whole compound is a salt and usual nomenclature is cation first, then anion

 

[SadAnt]

OK.
Thanks for all the comments. I'll look into Jonathan ott.

 

[Anadenanthera]

I did a search for calcium bufotenate on google and I saw this post and I just had to reply.

The calcium salt of morhine is also known as calcium morphinate, and the calcium salt of phenol is known as caclium phenoxide, so maybe calcium bufotenate is the correct term after all. But bufotenin caltrate also sounds right to me.

You know you can very easily verify what's on Wiki, at least the potency aspect of it. All of these ingredients are very easy to obtain legally in most countries. To verify, make 5 batches of Yopo, one with nothing added, one with hydrochloric acid added, one with ammonia, one with baking soda, and one with pickling lime. Prepare them all, give them plenty of time to react (a few hours at least) before drying them.

If you can do this, legally of course, you'll find that the one made with pickling lime is the most potent. If the Wiki info is flawed, then this shouldn't be the case, instead the one made with ammonia should be the most potent because the left over ammonia all evaporates after you dry it so it should take less snuff to be active. However, the lime snuff at a ratio of 25% lime, is much more potent than the ammonia snuff and has noticeably different effects. The least potent and most unpleasant is the one made with hydrochloric acid (completely evaporated of course). The second weakest is the plain snuff which also has pretty bad effects. The ammonia snuff is the same in effects as the baking soda snuff but stronger (do to the extra bulk of the baking soda snuff).

If the Wiki info is flawed, then why do the test results match the claims on Wiki?

You guys should try this (legally of course). Post your findings. Everyone I know who has tried it (legally of course) has had the same results. Are we all having placebo reactions? Its possible. Until we have dozens of reports verifying these findings we will not know for sure.

Isn't there a molecular modeling software package that can simulate these reactions and either prove or disprove this?

If the Wiki info is wrong, then what accounts for the increase in potency? Surely calcium could not be adding to the effects on its own. That's ridiculous. Something is happening beyond that. This calcium bufotenate thing seams sound to me. I do know of calcium being used in this way with other compounds to make water insoluble cleaners, and then there's calcium morphinate and caclium phenoxide where its used for the opposite effect, so this is not a new idea. I've also heard of a similar thing happening to psilocin and psilocybin when reacted with calcium hydroxide.

I too would like to see a well known chemist's response to this.

 

[Anadenanthera]

After my personal experiences with this one both extracted from A. columbrina, smoking the seeds, and through the traditional snuff, I am still on the fence about this one.

This quote from the Tihkal entry also sums it up well
"A second report carries, at least for me, much more impact. A study of the use of the seeds of a South American legume, Anadenanthera colubrina var. Cebil by the Argentine Shamans in Chaco Central, shows then to be dramatically psychedelic. And yet, extremely sophisticated spectroscopic analysis has shown them to contain bufotenine and only bufotenine as their alkaloid component.

At the bottom line, I do not really know of bufotenine is a psychedelic drug. Maybe yes and maybe no."

The Dea considers it schedule 1 hallucinogen

So, for those BL'ers who have met with bufotenine in all its fury, do you consider it a psychedelic? We should get some interesting debate out of this one.

As an afterthought I decided to add all the qualitative comments.
DOSAGE : 8 - 16 mg, intravenously

DURATION : 1 - 2 hrs

QUALITATIVE COMMENTS : (with 1 mg, intravenously, over a three minute period) "Within a minute (from the start of the injection) I had a tight feeling in my chest and my face felt as if it had been jabbed by nettles and this lasted for about 6 minutes. I had fleeting nausea."

(with 2 mg, intravenously, over a 3 minute period) "I felt a tightness in my throat and stomach and it seemed that my pulse was racing, although apparently there was no change in either my pulse or blood pressure."

(with 4 mg, intravenously, over a 3 minute period) "During the injection, I first felt a burning sensation in my face, then a load pressing down from above, and then a numbness of the entire body. I saw red and black spots -- a vivid orange-red -- moving around. Apparently my purplish face color lasted some 15 minutes, well after my visual things had disappeared."

(with 8 mg, intravenously, over a 3 minute period) "I became lightheaded as soon as the injection started, and then my face turned purple and I became nauseated and I felt I couldn't breathe. I see white, straight lines with a black background. I can't trace a pattern. Now there are red, green and yellow dots, very bright like they were made out of fluorescent cloth, moving like blood cells through capillaries, weaving in and out of the white lines. I another two minutes, everything was pretty much gone."

(with 10 mg, intravenously, over a 50 second period) "My face was suddenly very hot. I could not breathe fast enough."

(with 10 mg, intravenously, over a 77 minute period) "There were no psychological changes."

(with 16 mg, intravenously, over a 3 minute period) "Almost immediately I felt a burning sensation in the roof of my mouth and I felt a tingling all over my body. My face turned purple, and my chest feels crushed. Everything has a yellow haze, and I was sweating heavily and I vomited. Words can't come. My mind feels crowded. When I start on a thought, another one comes along and clashes with it. I can't express myself clearly. I am here and not here. It has now been forty minutes and I feel better, but I still feel like I would like to walk it off, like a hang-over."

I have experienced some pretty intense visual alterations, but the physical effects are very detrimental to the ride. So come on PD, what do you think??

10 mg of the calcium salt of bufotenin vaporized produces NO SIDE EFFECTS AT ALL, tons of visuals, just like DMT, but lasts much longer. In my opinion its one of the best hallucinogens there is. However, this is not the same bufotenin derivative tested above by the researchers and probably not the one you tested.

The calcium salt of bufotenin is similar to free base bufotenin tested by Jonathan Ott. Ott found free base bufotenin to be quite pleasant and hallucinogenic, unlike those tested above, and wrote a report on it that was published.

So when you ask is bufotenin hallucinogenic, the answer is YES for some derivatives and NO for others. Some derivatives, like bufotenin hydrochloride, are so water soluble that they don't enter the brain much at all. These form produce toxic bodily effects. Others, like the calcium salt, enter the brain easily and produce completely different effects in humans. This is something that separates bufotenin from the other hallucinogens.

Unlike most other hallucinogens in free base form, free base bufotenin is still somewhat water soluble and must be made less water soluble in order to enter the brain properly. The calcium salt of bufotenin is less water soluble, but even it is a little water soluble. At extremely high doses, much more than needed for full hallucinogenic effects, even the salt of bufotenin will start having toxic effects on the body.

Unlike many other hallucinogens, bufotenin is non-specific and affects 5-HT sites in the brain AND body, so in order to give it greater effects in the brain its water solubility must be reduced, allowing more of it to enter the brain. The more it enters the brain, the less it affects 5-HT sites in the body, produces less effects in the body and more effects in the brain. So its all about water solubility with bufotenin. If you want a highly toxic version, with little hallucinogenic effects, you use a salt form that's more water soluble than it's free base form (like bufotenin creatinine sulfate used in many of the horrible tests above). If you want strong hallucinogenic effects, and no body effects, you use a salt form that's less water soluble than its free base form (such as the calcium salt). If you want intermediate effects you use the free base form. Its fascinating how it works.

This explains why for hundreds of years shamans have added calcium hydroxide (or calcium oxide) to all their snuff containing bufotenin and never added any acids to it (which would make bufotenin more water soluble)! They aparently knew about this aspect of bufotenin long before we did. Absolutely fascinating.

 

[cognosis]

I've experimented a bit with vilca (Anadenanthera colubrina) snuff a few years back. The big difference between Vilca (sp. colubrina) and Yopo (sp. peregrina) is the primary constitute is bufotenin with a smaller percentage of dmt and 5-meo-dmt; whereas Yopo is primarily DMT and 5-meo-dmt. Having previous experience with dmt and 5-meo-dmt, I found that if I just smoked the seeds straight the only effect I got was from the Bufotenin which caused me to feel somewhat panicked and sweaty. I could fell the blood flowing through my veins and thought I might pop.

//I have no idea exact dosages I did but if higher dosages it is more psychedelic it's probablly a terror hallucinogen, NOT AT ALL RECREATIONAL. Felt like though when I made the snuff(I crushed the germinated meat of the seeds and mixed with baking soda) I could feel the other tryptamines more but boy does that shit hurt.

 

[retired_chemist]

This wikipedia article asserts a lot of "facts" purporting that the Calcium Bufotenate hypothesis "solves the mystery" of bufotenin activity but there are no references to any actual research sources.

 

[Anadenanthera]

I've experimented a bit with vilca (Anadenanthera colubrina) snuff a few years back. The big difference between Vilca (sp. colubrina) and Yopo (sp. peregrina) is the primary constitute is bufotenin with a smaller percentage of dmt and 5-meo-dmt; whereas Yopo is primarily DMT and 5-meo-dmt. Having previous experience with dmt and 5-meo-dmt, I found that if I just smoked the seeds straight the only effect I got was from the Bufotenin which caused me to feel somewhat panicked and sweaty. I could fell the blood flowing through my veins and thought I might pop.

//I have no idea exact dosages I did but if higher dosages it is more psychedelic it's probablly a terror hallucinogen, NOT AT ALL RECREATIONAL. Felt like though when I made the snuff(I crushed the germinated meat of the seeds and mixed with baking soda) I could feel the other tryptamines more but boy does that shit hurt.

More rumors...this is total crap man. Both A. colubrina and A. peregrina have bufotenin as the main active compound. Check out the recent book Anadenanthera: Visionary Plant Of Ancient South America By Constantino Manuel Torres, David B. Repke. It has dozens of tests from all around the world proving this. That along with stuff from Janathan Ott. Read them. Check out the facts by THE EXPERTS. I myself am sort of an expert. Don't believe the crap about DMT in Yopo and Vilca. Its crap generated by internet dealers in order to sell you seeds. People don't want to buy bufotenin. They want DMT, so they lie to you and you guys all believe it. Look, DMT and 5-Meo-DMT don't last 2-3 hours. Yopo and Vilca do. Only bufotenin can give you a two hour trip like Yopo and Vilca produce.

PLEASE STOP SPREADING RUMORS.

 

[swilow]

^^^All the same, the plants do contain DMT and 5-meo-DMT, just in extremely small concentrations.