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Phenethylamines The Big & Dandy Bromo-Dragonfly/DOB-Dragonfly Thread

^^^

I did also post in that thread, that I had tried 150ug orally and it was barely threshold (definitely noticeable though really, very weak though) and then about 650ug orally (no tolerance like cr00k) and it was a mild trip.

Bluedolphin and F&B are right on with the dose - and if the dose/response curve is steep (i believe thats what i read in the other thread) then yes I could see how going from 650ug to 2mg would make for an intense long ride. (F&B - was the racemic version of dob - dragonfly taken up to 8mg/8000ug and then the R isomer up to 4mg/4000ug? or possibly even both up to 8mg, i forget now)

Maybe I should type up a trip report? I actually was.. but my computer crashed :( but i just said fuck it because there wasn't much to write about, so i just posted a little something in that other closed thread.

LoL - maybe I should type up a trip report over at Murple's forum so it'll be official ;) d00d like, i tripped a mild ballz off 650 mics maan , like, my left nut went up to like, a ++ and stuff. %)
 
First hand reports are needed, if you tried the stuff you should write something up. Seems almost something that's a responsibility for those who have access to really new things. Even if it is short, write something and post here or Erowid or wherever you find appropriate. If all we have to go on is 'I trust this guy and he said his mate said he did this much and it was good' that's better than nothing at all, but, it isn't very much either.

I heard a report tonight from somebody who took 500 and said 750 might be worthwhile. That's data, but without a report, it isnt very useful considering how little information there is, and how much information seems to be wrong. Some people on other forums claim it takes 5 or 6 hours to kick in, and lasts for 40 hours. Some people are taking a bunch and saying no activity. It only gets more confusing that some people are getting blotter acid from festivals and thinking its Br-dragonflies and then reporting the effects of what is probably acid as Br-dragonfly effects.

All I am saying is with so much hear-say passing around, maybe we should be somewhat cautious about issuing absolute statements about dose and effect until there is more information.
 
> Have any suppliers of DOBDF (this is the name I choose to use
> now )provided NMR or GC/MS analysis for this material?

While I am not a supplier, I am submitting several samples of alleged DOBDF to a friend of mine for GC/MS analysis.

I'll get back to you sometime next week.
 
I know one of the RC vendor suppliers and the product of his synthesis was analysed before going to the RC vendors. Whether the other vendors have bothered to get theirs analysed is anybody's guess I'm assuming that they must have done business before with these people, so have a previous history of getting what they are paying for. If not, then that does seem rather amiss


PS. MGS, I think your acronym is the one that'll end up being used - DOB-DF/DOBDF is a hell of a lot easier to type than any of the others :)

PPS
(F&B - was the racemic version of dob - dragonfly taken up to 8mg/8000ug and then the R isomer up to 4mg/4000ug? or possibly even both up to 8mg, i forget now)
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I may be wrong and it may have been up to 8000ug of the racaemate (or it may have been the DOB-fly). I'll have to rummage through my notes and get back to you on that one
 
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F&b's source also gave me the same information, so I can fill in. It was under the condition to keep it private, but as f&b started to make it public (with permission of our source I assume), I'll just add what I know:

Racemic DOB-dfly: orally active from about 0.8 mg, similar at this dose in effect and duration to low dose DOB. Took up to 8 mg which causes long-lasting (4 days) effects, very intense, depersonalization, delirium, nausea, headache, strong body stimulation, sleep deprivation.

(R)-DOB-dfly, the more potent isomer: orally active from about 0.4 mg, similar in effect and duration to low dose DOB. Took up to 16 mg which causes long-lasting (5 days) effects, very intense, similar to above, but more body toxcity, this is clearly a toxic level.

(R)-DOB-fly, the more potent isomers of the non-aromatic compound: orally active from about 0.8 mg, similar in effect and duration to low dose DOB. Took up to 16 mg which caused effects similar to 8 mg of DOB-dfly.

Our anonymous researcher took heroic amounts in order to evaluate the toxicity and activity of the these compounds before making them available to the public. I think he deserves our unconditional respect for his thoroughness and for bringing these rare compounds out of Nichols' lab and to the general public.

I have also received a third-hand report from a different source, according to wich DOB-dfly caused very intense effects boardering on a delirium lasting 48 hours in a oral dose of 2 mg. I have reason to believe that this report is reliable. However, the source for the broader report above did not experience such strong and long-lasting effects from this dose.

Thus, there might indeed be a very steep dose-response curve for DOB-dfly as I predicted from the available in vitro data, and there might be a strong inter-individual variation in response to a given dose.

Lastly, I think this thread should be merged with the unnecessarily closed first dfly thread into a Big & Dandy dlfy thread. There definitely is useful information in the closed thread. I remember posting information on receptor affinities and EC50 values etc, others posted initial in homo experimental results. A full 14 pages of useless nonsense and stupidity, as gloggawogga claims? "There is virtually no usefull information in this thread anyways because of all the relentless stupidity as it is." Excuse me, but I feel offended by being told that what I posted was "relentless stupidity" and "useless".

It doesn't make sense to have the information on these compounds so scattered just because of the arbitrary decision of an overzealous mod. I don't think some transient 'noise' is sufficient reason to close a thread that had grown and developed nicely to span 14 pages. If gloggawogga thinks he has to censor every nonconformist comment and stifle every thread that doesn't develop exactly how he thinks it should, I have a suggestion for him: emigrate to China and seek a job with the gov't there, they have high demand for your skills.

This is not the first time that he arbitrarily closed a thread for no good reason. I wonder if there are internal statistics which mod closed how many threads. I feel gloggawogga would lead by a wide margin. He also leads by a wide margin when it comes to rudeness towards and disrespect for the average user and other people's opinion. We john doe users deserve the same respect as demigod mod gloggawogga. Tell you something, gloggawogga: without us users you could moderate yourself.

Sorry, folks, but I just had to get this off my chest. The mods here are doing an excellent job, but the totalitarian and autocratic attitude of this one just pisses me off.
 
16mg?It seems, altough uncomfortable, yet less toxic than DOB (assuming he never took DOB above 5mg)
It would be interesting to know if these side effects come later in the experiment or are manifest with the peak.If the latter holds true it might be inherent in the compound meaning there must be some other receptor/transmitters/peripheral pathways involved (unusual high 5-HT2C activity we already know),otherwise I tend to to see it as exhaustion signs/hangover starts during experiment,typical of these >20h/highly lipophilic compounds (at least my experience).
 
don Pedro said:
cr00k is the only first-hand report I have seen where somebody got effects off under 1mg, and he was taking other drugs (DPT &c). Almost every other first-hand report was inactive, except for the 2mg report where somebody tripped quite hard.
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Please don Pedro, quit misleading people here. What you are doing is very (!) dangerous. I have not taken any drugs in combination with my final Bromo-Dragonfly trial until the 11 hour mark. We have told you again and again, please read the report once more. I'm asking you to edit your posts, you are misleading people into taking higher doses than necessary.

crOOk
 
^ In the intrests of harm reduction, I have to agree. There are several reports of DOBDF being active orally in the 500-1000ug (0.5-1mg) range. Given that, and some reports of a seemingly very steep dose-response relationship, stating that it's inactive under 1mg orally could potentially mislead someone into thinking that they needed to dose over 1mg orally to get any sort of response (yes, I know you should always start very low and work up, but some people do look to forums like this for info on what is the 'standard' dose).

I think it's always best to state any dose as being the average lowest reported active dose. If for some reason a person finds that the stated dose is too low they can always up the dose the next time. This seems far better than someone taking what amounts to a 'fuck-off' dose thinking it's the 'average' active dose and ending up in an A&E dept because the trip becomes far too intense
 
As long as there are not much more experience reports it's not safe to give any dose range because of the particular pharmacokinetics of these compounds. Obviously, oral bioavailability is quite low, maybe 10% (100 mug IM vs. 1000 mug orally). The oral bioavailability will hardly be exactly the same in every person and will probably also depend on other factors such as food and beverages consumed. Think of THC, very poorly bioavailable orally, but much more so if ingested with oil/fat.

So if we tell people that a good dose is 1 mg and in a certain person it has a bioavailability of 20% instead of 10%, which isn't such a big variation, the dose would equate 2 mg. According to the report I received 2 mg can already cause an out-of-control trip which requires a sitter and would not be manageable in many situations (at a rave etc for example).

Like probably everyone else who read about these benzodifuranes in Nichols' publications I had high hopes for them. The structure was beautiful, the potency intriguing. And I'm very glad that our anonymous friend synthesized them and made them available to the wider public. Else at least I would have wondered about these dragonflies for the rest of my days.

But now that there are in homo experiences I must say that they are very disappointing in every respect. Oral potency is at least an order of magnitude lower than anticipated. The slow onset and long duration of the effect are a clear minus. The effect itself doesn't seem to be anything what other, more reliable and calculable psychedelics don't offer. There is a lot of potential danger and little to reward the psychonaut.

I feel that the world wouldn't loose anything if these compounds vanish again and can't be found anywhere but in Nichols' lab.
 
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fly and dragonlfly series simply because DOB-dfly turns out to be a dud. There are good reports of 2c-b-fly, and there are many more compounds possible, DOM-fly, DOM-dfly, 2c-e-fly, etc. etc. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two of the entire series turns out to be a gem. Most new research chemicals are duds, imho, but it doesn't mean we don't keep searching for the few good ones that are out there.
 
Having found 2C-B a second-rate psychedelic, and having no interest whatsoever in DOB, the existance of BRDF does not excite me. My days of spending $1000s to collect every single psychedelic released are long over. Now I will save my money for benzodifuran analogues of DOM, DOET, 2C-D, and 2C-E. Those are the ones I will be seaking out.
 
I did not say to say its inactive under 1mg. I said there are conflicting reports and its too soon to be saying with absolute certainty what the dose range is. Some people say its active under 1mg, others don't, and theres very few first hand reports. If someone asks what the dose is for Br-dragonfly, the right answer is "we don't know yet, but it could be 0,5-2,0mg or thereabout." Saying low numbers when we aren't totally sure yet isn't harm reduction. It's dishonest, same as if someone said for sure it's inactive orally. Even if your intent is harm reduction, you have to be honest, and that means you have to mention that there are reports of people taking 1mg orally with no effects, as well as saying that there are reports of trips with less doses.
 
don Pedro said:
you have to be honest, and that means you have to mention that there are reports of people taking 1mg orally with no effects
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What reports though. I had asked you before and the mentioned reports sound like hearsay to me.

As far as I am concerned, I agree that threshold doses seem to start somewhere around 300ug, while a standard dose should be settled around 750-1000ug. Again we have to consider the steep dose response curve and the potential differences in bio availability mentioned earlier in this thread.

crOOk
 
^ Other than the comment from Shulgin, I'm finding it difficult to pin down a report of 1mg of DOBDF being inactive by mouth. While I'm more than happy to conceed that without Shulgin's work, this forum (and a lot of psychedelic discussion) most probably wouldn't exist, he seems to be way out on this one. I recently tried 250ug of DOBDF orally and got mild effects, most probably comparable with 0.5mg of DOB, so the idea that it's inactive at 1mg seems way way off (the sort of thing that might be explained by having a tolerance at the time of taking a 1mg dose).


Saying low numbers when we aren't totally sure yet isn't harm reduction. It's dishonest, same as if someone said for sure it's inactive orally. Even if your intent is harm reduction, you have to be honest, and that means you have to mention that there are reports of people taking 1mg orally with no effects, as well as saying that there are reports of trips with less doses.
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I'm being honest. Most people have reported threshold activity at the 200-400ug dose level; those who've taken larger doses (600-1000ug) seem to be reporting pretty much a full psychedelic type of activity. Just because of one anomaly of someone getting no response at 1mg doesn't mean that it has to be included in the average active dose. Some people say that they only get full effects from 2C-E with doses of 30mg. Despite their reports, I don't see anyone suggesting that the average dose for 2C-E be adjusted to include them; most people need between 10-20mg for a full blown experience.

Harm reduction means noting what the lowest active dose is, to prevent anyone getting in over their head, but there's no requirement to state what the highest dose for some people to trip is. It's not just me thinking this way either - have a look at the notes on Erowid's AMT dosage page here .
 
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fastandbulbous said:
Some people say that they only get full effects from 2C-E with doses of 30mg. Despite their reports, I don't see anyone suggesting that the average dose for 2C-E be adjusted to include them; most people need between 10-20mg for a full blown experience.
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Exactly. I thought about mentioning this, but I guess I was too lazy to do so...

crOOk
 
Some people say that they only get full effects from 2C-E with doses of 30mg. Despite their reports, I don't see anyone suggesting that the average dose for 2C-E be adjusted to include them; most people need between 10-20mg for a full blown experience.
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The average for 2C-E is a tad more meaningful though. How many people have taken 2C-E? How many have taken Br-DFLY?
 
The average for 2C-E is a tad more meaningful though. How many people have taken 2C-E? How many have taken Br-DFLY?
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Out of the people who have taken DOBDF, how many have reported no activity at an oral dose of 1mg. The whole idea of an average dose is based on percentages. Other than Shulgin's report, nobody here has reported no activity at the 1mg mark; so on average, the active dose is between 500-1000ug, the same way that on average, the active dose of 2C-E is between 10-20mg
 
Someone on another forum posted translations from a Swedish drugs forum (Sweden being the country where an internet headshop was selling blotters of 100mic BDFLY) and there were quite a few people posting about being unable to trip from the stuff and being peeved about finding out it didnt do much orally (at least at reasonably priced doses). It seems as if there was much hype on the Swedish site about this chemical, as elsewhere, but once they actually started trying it, the hype faded quite rapid when people weren't getting off.

I've just seen another report on another forum of a 500mic trip, this one a fairly detailed first person report. Effects felt in 20 minutes, peak in 3 hours, person went to sleep at like 12 hours after dosing. Person got good effect, but found it a little lacking and would do 750mic if they did it again.

I still stand by my earlier statements that (at the time I posted) it was too early to give absolute information. But it does seem like newer data is increasingly indicating oral activity in the 500-1000mic range. The rumors about it taking 5-6 hours to kick in, or that peak lasts for 40 hours, seem to be bunk tho.
 
MGS, can you elaborate more on this please? in regards to the benzodifuran analogues. What are these?
and why the interest?
morninggloryseed said:
Having found 2C-B a second-rate psychedelic, and having no interest whatsoever in DOB, the existance of BRDF does not excite me. My days of spending $1000s to collect every single psychedelic released are long over. Now I will save my money for benzodifuran analogues of DOM, DOET, 2C-D, and 2C-E. Those are the ones I will be seaking out.
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