The Big & Dandy AMT / αMT Thread - 4th Rush

[Solipsis]

See if it floats on (fb) or dissolves (salt) in water.

 

[stratofortress]

Would you mind going into details? I hadn't really consider smoking this, so skim-read this thread regarding oral dosages only. But frankly, smoking sounds easier, quicker and cheaper... (how could you resist such a combo!?)

I think others have answered your question as well as I could, but I'll tell you what I did anyway. Sprinkle a little on tin foil (a match head sized pile is a decent dose), run your lighter underneath, quickly inhale the vapour/smoke using a tooter made from foil (i learned the hard way that vaping with paper tooters can result in burnt lips). The amt will vapourise very quickly, so have everything ready before lighting up.

The smoke tastes like shit, smells like shit, but wasn't as harsh as some are claiming. I am a smoker though so perhaps my lungs are a little better 'tempered'. I imagine this is highly unhealthy and must cause a fair bit of damage; not gonna dispute that.

Smoked amt hits within minutes. Repeated dosing keeps you high for longer. Obviously.

Anyway hope that helps.

P.S. I was using the freebase form.

 

[Morkin]

Thanks for the info everyone.

Do you have to freebase aMT to smoke it?

 

[Mycotheologist]

Thanks for the info everyone.

Do you have to freebase aMT to smoke it?

I have some orangish powder, not sure if its the freebase or what but it vaporises easily. Haven't tried smoking it yet. According to erowid, you need much lower doses when smoking and if it kicks in within minutes, it seems like a way better ROA than oral. How long do the effects last when smoked?

EDIT: The stuff I have isn't water soluble so it must be the freebase.

 

[johannes kreisler]

hi boyz n girls!

I've used aMT maybe 10-15 times. mostly plugged 5-20mg as an antidepressant/"day enhancer"/party basis and sometimes smoked tiny amounts for energy...
I liked it most of the times but always felt that the comeup is serious and that the experience gives my GI discomfort and is quite jittery as a whole, requiring a lot of cannabis.

...last week I had a full dose of smoked aMT for the first time. we were up for a house party and I had preweighted 10mg-doses in gelcaps. 2 of them were shared between 2 experienced trippers with one hour in between and left us wanting more (5mg + 5mg each). we were obviously fucked up but not quite there yet, so we smoked 10mg each at t+90min.

I don't wanna write a full trip report so here are briefly a few ideas on smoked aMT:
onset is instant but the comeup is NOT - maybe 45min after the last dose we went out to walk ~20min through the city to the homeparty. there was fresh cold air and we were walking and we were smoking a joint on the street but I'm sure this was not enough to produce the effects I experienced: an overwhelming comeup. very intense, surreal, feeling of fainting or the feeling of "I think I took too much and I'm gonna fall into myself for some time now". not so comfy on the street at night, at 5°C...(at times bordering panic, but it stayed controllable and didn't really felt threatening or disintegrating)
when we got there it subsided but the both of us (for me the effects were much more pronounced than for my friend) were definitely tripping - as in tripping considerably too much for a crowded house party.
we were pretty much couch-&music-locked for the first few hours. after that I began to be able to socialize (and dance) again but still stayed pretty much in my "bubble". talking to people (some of them on mdma/speed) was difficult cause all that came out of my mouth was typical intellectual/spritual triptalk. reflecting the situation didn't help much. I was comfortable and felt great most of the time but I could have been lying on my couch at home alone and it wouldn't have made much of a difference...

duration is long: full effects probably lasted for 6-7h after the last dose; I popped 1mg of lorazepam at maybe t+8h and managed to sleep one hour later.
GI discomfort was there and it was indeed distracting and annoying but no problem I'd consider serious or even making the experience "not worth it".

the experience is (beautifully) unique but from all the substances I know it's probably closest to 6-apb. much more relaxed and easier on the body though; more like a material "to work with". the tryptamine character is obvious so is serotonin activity and stimulation. truly unique and I'm looking forward to the next experiment. either 15mg smoked at once or ~40mg plugged.
btw: I didn't experience any form of crash but an afterglow that lasted for a few days. niiiiiice. (there's this kind of experience where the afterglow is more impressing than the trip. like "the trip was ok but I feel like it rewired some cognitive/emotional patterns for the better without me actively doing anything about it")


I'd appreciate if someone could tell me if there is anything you can do about the GI discomfort and what's the phenomenological difference between smoking and plugging.



edit: "the machine" was used to smoke the aMT. works exactly as it does with DMT. if it's too hot you feel it instantly cause the smoke gets very, very irritating...
ime there are no troubles with the respiratory system if vaped correctly.

 

[Mycotheologist]

Nice, so its only 8 hours when smoked. Vaping sounds like the way to go. What kinda GI discomfort are you talking about? Cramps? Diarrhea? Loperamide should take care of diarrhea.

 

[Solipsis]

Yes JK ^ I certainly agree the afterglow is very special and at least as important as the main part of the experience.

 

[johannes kreisler]

^^cramps and gas. (a bit like on an amphetamine comedown)

and btw: I expect 15mg in one hit to be a "better-stay-at-home-dose". I have no evidence but I don't feel that "stacking" doses is efficient due to tolerance...maybe someone can enlighten me...also about how 15mg smoked would relate to 40mg plugged...

the afterglow is quite surprising as you'd expect the experience to be somewhat draining.



anyone tried smoking this on a MAOI? :D (sounds like an interesting but maybe dangerous idea to me)

 

[Solipsis]

Probably dangerous as AMT is a serotonin releaser and MAOI (especially when inhibition of the B isomorph is included) would prevent serotonin from being broken down which can really mess with you. Mild to severe serotonin syndrome, body temperature all over the place, HR / BP problems, sweating, confusion, etc etc.

What is the point even? The alpha-methyl group already serves as a pretty good prevention of MAO metabolism. I see a MAOI mainly as something that complicates matters.

Anyway Erowid is coming up empty on report on the combination.

 

[johannes kreisler]

...I'm aware of serotonin syndrome...
the point is that smoking DMT on a MAOI (harmala extract) is (for me) the absolute shit of shits. :D

but yes, you probably wouldn't like the alpha-methyl effects amplified but the tryptamine ones. maybe it would be wiser to smoke some DMT while already on aMT... 8) (but iirc it is a constant matter of debate within bluelight to what extent aMT is a MAOI...?)

btw: say I had some access to drug checking facilities in europe and knew about stuff that's going around. maybe I would have crossed a mix of (low dose) aMT and DMT sold as DMT. of course it would be extremely irresponsible to sell a 8h trip as a 10min trip but it's around and some guys seem to appreciate it...

 

[psood0nym]

^Using aMT with an MAOI is definitely dangerous as aMT's pharmacological action overlaps a lot with the MDMA/6-APB etc. empathogen set, and honestly it doesn't read like you were aware of how serotonin syndrome develops through drug interactions in your previous post, or that you were referring to smoking DMT on an MAOI (posting high, it happens, heh).

That aside, I've IM injected synthetic DMT during an aMT trip and for me they didn't really gel. I found the DMT too imperious and surging to meld with aMT's beach bum languorous bliss. I imagine smoking would amplify those issues all the more. The mentally roughest stuff I've found that combines well with aMT is 4-AcO-DMT. IM DET with aMT was, like with DMT, too much of a contrast. I imagine MET would be too. Combining aMT with phenethylamines is too anxiolytic and stimmy, and with LSD I've found the vasoconstriction a bit much -- though if I'm physically active enough during the trip to work out the tension the headspace is a lot of fun. Granted, I had a good time with all of these combo "failures," I just mention them because they didn't have natural synergy.

Psyches that lean more toward ego dissolution rather than hard and manic visual headfuckery, e.g. IM DPT and low dose vaporized 5-MeO-DMT, however, synergize fantastically with aMT in my experience.

I've not tried the combos, but I suspect 5-MeO-MiPT and DiPT would make good play pals for aMT. Anybody tried those combos?

 

[johannes kreisler]

I found the DMT too imperious and surging to meld with aMT's beach bum languorous bliss.

makes perfect sense.
my fascination came from the fact that I love MAOI+DMT and speculated about ways to make an aMT experience more alike...(wasn't high, I'm just not an english native and sometimes unable/too lazy to translate my thoughts... )

only tried 5-Meo-MiPT once and never ever would have thought of combining it with aMT. too stimmy and impalpable. but that was probably partly due to the setting...
what finally made my 5-Meo-MiPT experience worthwhile was MXE which leads me to the next idea: aMT+keta. seems reasonable, doesn't it?

 

[psood0nym]

^Yes, it's hard to go wrong with aMT and ketamine (doing n2o chargers during that combo is not to be missed btw). I mentioned 5-MeO-MiPT because of my good experiences with low dose 5-MeO-DMT with aMT (1 -2 mg). I've read that vaporized 5-MeO-MiPT was similar to 5-MeO-DMT, with the same sort of dissociative effects mingled into the trip, and so that was what lead me to think that maybe the 5-MeO-MiPT/aMT combo might be good. I imagine a sort of warm staticy empathogenic blanket sort of space with that one.

 

[Survived Abortion]

The real question is, can you take DMT orally after aMT and have an aMThuasca experience? Going by the articles I've linked to before regarding aMT's MAOI potency, I would think there must be potential here. It's just a case of whether anyone with access to both compounds is going to try it.

As it pertains to combining MAOIs with aMT, I just want to throw this little wrench in to the works for you all to mull over:

Take a look at this paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043998/?page=1

The results support findings relating the initial behavioural response induced by a-methyltryptamine to a pre-synaptic effect on 5-HT neurons leading to increased 5-HT in the synaptic cleft. This may be caused either by release of 5-HT or by blockade of 5-HT re-uptake combine with some inhibition of MAO.

We know from the papers I have previously cited

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3747266

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13898151

that aMT is indeed a worthy MAOI, measuring as effective in it's inhibition and competitive ability as harmaline. But there is scant evidence of it being a serotonin-releaser. In fact, I've searched through pages of pubmed, and have yet to come up with any evidence whatsoever of it's serotonin releasing properties. (Please point me in the right direction if there is an explanation out there.) This is not to say it isn't, because it may very well be the case that it is. [I'm aware of the paper cited by wikipedia, but it doesn't give any explanation in the abstract about the methodology used for the experiment, although I assume from what I read that it involves studying fractions of dead rat synaptosomes prepared from cortex material, and not the in vivo electrochemical method used in the above study.]

But, since MAOIs are contraindicated with MDMA due to serotonin syndrome, don't you find it strange that both these mechanisms could be present in aMT to the same degree as it's comparative counterparts MDMA and harmaline whilst at the same time people are taking it day in day out and not freaking out/dying.

I would think that if serotonin release happens from aMT to the same degree as MDMA, and if it is also an MAOI comparable to harmaline in strength, then taking a dose would be instant serotonin syndrome by default. It cannot be a strong MAOI and a strong serotonin releaser, it doesn't make any sense. Surely it's much more likely that it's more one than the other. Maybe its serotonin releasing properties are actually very slight (if at all) and as such are amplified greatly by the MAOI properties of the drug. Or that both properties happen in a reduced enough intensity at "normal" doses.

If, as the paper suggests, the drug is actually a mild SSRI (rather than a serotonin releaser) with simultanous MAOI properties, then this would also explain it. And it may also explain why aMT lacks the crash of MDMA, and why similarly "rolly" drugs like 5-MeO-MiPT work the way they do.

I'm not saying any of this with conviction for any particular explanation, but it's a curiosity worth considering.

 

[Danny Al'thor]

What is this of which you speak please tell me?!? AMT?!?

What is AMT???

 

[Survived Abortion]

What is AMT???

Have a read of this thread, and of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-Methyltryptamine
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amt/amt.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal48.shtml

 

[Morkin]

Noon. 60mg of orange powder like fine sand. Oral ROA gel-cap on empty stomach.
1 hour to come-up. No nausea.
1pm until 11pm everything "trippy". Lights are vibrant, occasional sparks of colour leap from them. Slight tracers. Very slight "wash" of shimmering shadow over bright things. Blank spaces are covered in the shifting, translucent paisley-like pattern I always see with tryptamines. Nothing is boring to look at. Pupils massively dilated. No real stimulation except slight shakes. No weakness in the legs as with the 40mg dose taken previously - perhaps because I spend the day moving around. Able to socialise with people I've just met, though hard to concentrate (forget names, lose card games). Only "fear" (in a fun kind-of-way) is an 8pm walk through a dark park where things behind trees/bushes & under bridges seem to shift & lurk (but nothing is there). Otherwise, good mood throughout.
11pm until 2am. Light come down with a touch of farting & constipation (that latter of which never happens to me, except with AMT, it seems). Feel fine.
2am. Cannot sleep, no visuals. Talk half a zopiclone.
3am. Take another half.
3.30am. Take another half.
4ish asleep.
Next day, feel normal. Great stuff. If only it were served in bars.
Enjoy.

 

[Splitz]

So glad I'm not the only one who farts a lot because of this drug... haha. It's pretty unpleasant, for other people that is. I find it slightly amusing (partly because I'm tripping, partly because I seriously need to grow up!)

 

[Morkin]

The worst digestive issues I've had (i.e. the shits) was with DXM, but this was surprisingly odourless and easy to do. Massive, blasting farts though and regular, almost pouring "movements". It was so unbelievably over-the-top it was actually fun (& for my girlfriend, also full of DXM & superhuman farts/shit). The second worst was mushrooms (i.e. stomach discomfort followed by the shits) but this was also very funny (to me) & was laden with a heavy sense of truth (I saw shitting as a very basic thing upon which all civilisation is essentially built - kind of true, but seemed very profound then). The third worst was 5-MEO-DiPT (stomach discomfort - not fun) and fourth is acid (farts). AMT ranks the fifth (occasional farts, not especially malodorous), so in comparison, it isn't bad. As I've been told (above, in this thread) that AMT causes stomach upset & nausea in some, so I count myself very fortunate.

(Note that I'm never comfortable farting around anyone, but under the influences above, I care a little less, except with DXM which was almost a scatological celebration.)

Farting is the definite "come down" signal for tryptamines, much like sibilance heard in speech in the "come up" for phenethylamine. (For me, anyway.)

I intend to try an 80mg dose of this delightful substance soon.

 

[psood0nym]

The real question is, can you take DMT orally after aMT and have an aMThuasca experience? Going by the articles I've linked to before regarding aMT's MAOI potency, I would think there must be potential here. It's just a case of whether anyone with access to both compounds is going to try it.

As it pertains to combining MAOIs with aMT, I just want to throw this little wrench in to the works for you all to mull over:

Take a look at this paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2043998/?page=1



We know from the papers I have previously cited

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3747266

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/13898151

that aMT is indeed a worthy MAOI, measuring as effective in it's inhibition and competitive ability as harmaline. But there is scant evidence of it being a serotonin-releaser. In fact, I've searched through pages of pubmed, and have yet to come up with any evidence whatsoever of it's serotonin releasing properties. (Please point me in the right direction if there is an explanation out there.) This is not to say it isn't, because it may very well be the case that it is. [I'm aware of the paper cited by wikipedia, but it doesn't give any explanation in the abstract about the methodology used for the experiment, although I assume from what I read that it involves studying fractions of dead rat synaptosomes prepared from cortex material, and not the in vivo electrochemical method used in the above study.]

But, since MAOIs are contraindicated with MDMA due to serotonin syndrome, don't you find it strange that both these mechanisms could be present in aMT to the same degree as it's comparative counterparts MDMA and harmaline whilst at the same time people are taking it day in day out and not freaking out/dying.

I would think that if serotonin release happens from aMT to the same degree as MDMA, and if it is also an MAOI comparable to harmaline in strength, then taking a dose would be instant serotonin syndrome by default. It cannot be a strong MAOI and a strong serotonin releaser, it doesn't make any sense. Surely it's much more likely that it's more one than the other. Maybe its serotonin releasing properties are actually very slight (if at all) and as such are amplified greatly by the MAOI properties of the drug. Or that both properties happen in a reduced enough intensity at "normal" doses.

If, as the paper suggests, the drug is actually a mild SSRI (rather than a serotonin releaser) with simultanous MAOI properties, then this would also explain it. And it may also explain why aMT lacks the crash of MDMA, and why similarly "rolly" drugs like 5-MeO-MiPT work the way they do.

I'm not saying any of this with conviction for any particular explanation, but it's a curiosity worth considering.

I'm short on sleep and no pharmacology expert, but I don't think the paper you cited as supporting the idea that aMT is an MAOI on par with harmaline is in fact saying that. I've edited the abstract to make what I do think its saying about the aMT/harmaline stand out more because it's a long convoluted sentence (double check to make sure I'm getting this right):

In rats, three alpha-alkylated tryptamine derivatives (alpha-methyl, alpha-ethyl, and alphaalpha-dimethyltryptamine) caused alterations of 5-hydroxytryptamine metabolism typical of monoamine-oxidase inhibitors with short duration of action, viz., ... an ... inhibition of the increase [of 5-hydroxytryptamine] induced by iproniazid. The increase after iproniazid was antagonized to the same extent by all the tryptamine derivatives and by harmaline, whereas dexamphetamine showed less effect. In the other experiments with brain, the tryptamine derivatives were less potent than harmaline, but somewhat more active than dexamphetamine...

Full abstract

So I think it's saying aMT is almost as effective as harmaline at inhibiting the increase of serotonin by iproniazid only. When we look at Fig. 1 comparing the change in endogenous 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) with harmaline we can see that aMT is not as effective as harmaline, and in Fig 4 that it's not as effective as harmaline at inhibiting the decrease of serotonin induced by a benzoquinolizine derivative (a different measure of competitiveness I'm guessing):

Figures:

NSFW:

I can't explain the discrepancy between the aMT/harmaline rough equivalency for the ipronizid chart and the benzoquinolizine derivative chart (that's maybe a question for the ADD folk). But regarding "aMThuasca" I'd think the amount of aMT one would need to ingest to inhibit MAO enough to make DMT orally active in most people would make it prohibitive, as I want to say most people need around 70 mg of harmaline to make the DMT effective orally (that might be wrong though). However, if you ate a shit load of DMT what MAO inhibition aMT does offer at recreational doses would probably be sufficient to trip at some point, I don't know. I'm guessing it would be expensive to find out.

From what I've heard people in advanced drug discussion say, aMT inhibits MAO in a similar manner to amphetamine. From the aMT wiki talk page: "AMT and Amphetamine are both MAOIs because the methyl screws up MAO by getting in the way and taking up its time." (clearly not the writing of a professional but it remains so it's probably about right)

I also think it's highly plausible that aMT is a strong serotonin releaser. In addition to the study whose methodology you weren't so sure about involving studying fractions of dead rat synaptosomes prepared from cortex material that indicates it is, the closely related (homologue) aET is a serotonin releaser. Source That study was in vivo as the abstract states that "Serotonin and 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5-HIAA) levels and the number of 5-HT uptake sites (determined from [3H]paroxetine binding) were significantly decreased in frontal cortex samples at one week killing. A significant decrease in 5-HT and 5-HIAA levels was also observed in rat hippocampal samples. The results provide evidence that alpha-ethyltryptamine may induce serotonin neurotoxicity similar to that of MDMA and PCA."

Regarding the idea that being a releaser and an MAOI should cause serotonin syndrome, there's a lot of evidence that MDMA is a serotonin releaser as well as an MAOI, yet its MAOI effects are not sufficiently powerful in conjunction with its serotonin releasing effects to cause serotonin syndrome at common doses on its own. I'm thinking that's the same story for aMT. And of course, anecdotal evidence reports aMT as having subjective effects similar to serotonin releasing empathogens like MDMA. Perhaps the more telling anecdotal evidence is that many users report experiencing brain zaps in the wake of aMT overuse, a symptom correlated with SSRI cessation and MDMA use thought to owe to reduced intersynaptic serotonin levels.

AMT may have similar MAOI properties as amphetamine or MDMA (probably stronger than both, but not harmaline strong). I'm guessing the fact that it's a much stronger serotonin releaser than amphetamine in addition to both its more-powerful-than-MDMA MAOI efficacy AND its extreme duration of effect (allowing more time for serotonin to build-up) is what makes it more dangerous to combine with the likes of MDMA than amphetamine or simply taking another recreational dose of MDMA on top of what your on.