Dissociatives The Big & Dandy Amantadine and Memantine thread

[psood0nym]

I don't know, it says right in the literature that comes with Admenta (Sun Pharma India brand memantine) that an overdose had no lasting effects but had a psychotomimetic response. They don't say much about it but I can certainly see higher doses of memantine being more like traditional NMDA antagonists. Even at 60mg, it "feels" like you have taken DXM but has no actual psychotomimetic response, just a weird body feeling that hints at it.

That said, I would be cautious escalating the doses to higher ranges because of its propensity to cause problems with respiration.

I'm guessing the psychotomimetic response to high doses has something to do with its D2 agonism, as many older antipsychotics are non-selective D2 antagonists. I personally didn't feel anything like that at 160 mg by itself. The enhancing effects of memantine in combination with MXE or 3-MeO-PCP I've experienced could be described as a sort of mania, certainly, but it wasn't the sort of racing, on the verge of being difficult to wield, sort of manic thoughts I've experienced with MXE on a few rare occasions when I could've imagined such effects leading to problematic behaviors. The sort of manic enhancement I'm referring to with memantine is of the kind that makes me want to say "yes, this is great! ... can't put my finger on it but I just feel so in and responsive to everything good happening right now, ya know man?!!" heh heh. It's not a feeling of being almost out of control so much as it is a sense of emphatic engagement, though admittedly it's not difficult to imagine such a state leading to various kinds of delusional conclusions. Though for me personally, I don't see these kinds of levels realistically being reached until taking ridiculously high dosages that I have absolutely no inclination to experiment with. I see little personal benefit in exercising those kinds of psychological limits, particularly not with a compound that has as lengthy a metabolic half-life as memantine's!

I don't know that memantine has a "propensity" to cause respiratory problems outside of your limited experience.

Respiratory side effects have included coughing ( 4% ) and dyspnea ( 2% ). Pneumonia, apnea, asthma, and hemoptysis have been reported during clinical trials although these adverse events may not be necessarily related to memantine.

 

[knockout_mice]

Recreational Memantine (voltage-dependent uncompetitive NMDA antagonist)

What do you think, does it have any worthy recreational value?

k_m

 

[boognish in brown]

no don't itll probs just turn u into a retard

 

[knockout_mice]

If it turns me into a "retard" like ketamine, I'm perfectly ok with that. Have you tried it?

k_m

 

[Mysterie]

ive had memantine around 10 times b4

it is not very recreational, but i was young and hated myself and wanted to get out of my skin so having an altered perception and being able to obsess over random topics for hours was vaguely interesting to me

its not that fun though or euphoric or nice imo

ive had up to 150mg and it is kind of like dxm but a bit worse, its hard to describe, its been a long while since i had it

i dont recommend though... try it once if you are still into it after doing your research

its nothing like K or mxe

 

[knockout_mice]

Can you tell a little more about your experience?

I think it can cause anti-nootropic effects with acute dosing as it's an alpha-7 nAChR antagonist, but with repeated doses the alpha-7 nACh receptors upregulate and the brain fog dissipates. So maybe the right way to try this drug is to consume small doses (5-10mg) over a week and then have a higher dose for recreation (e.g. 50-100mg).

Also, it could make a great combination with psychedelics and stimulants to reduce the excitotoxicity and to add a hint of dissociation.

k_m

 

[Mysterie]

try it for yourself tbh, theres not much i can say because it was years ago, it was mostly uninteresting and on the verge of unpleasant dissociation

 

[Kamuix]

Heres my erowid experiance report that got accepted : It was a bright summer day and it started with me and two of my friends having stayed up late the night before we woke up at about 12:00 noon and we had already planned on going swimming. Before my friends got up so around 11:30 I did a small 10mg line of MXE and was buzzed but not intoxicated off of that.

TRIP REPORT MOVED TO TRIP REPORTS FORUM, HERE

 

[knockout_mice]

I had read your trip report before you posted it here, sadly. It's a funny experience indeed, but I wouldn't combine it with other NMDAR antagonists.

k_m

 

[psood0nym]

I find it pleasant on its own, but it's definetely an atypical dissociative. I've used it up to 160 mg. It adds a whole different dimension to MXE or 3-MeO-PCP, which I personally find to be a big improvement in both cases, though I like each of those on their own as well. I may give it one more shot but up it to 200 mg at some point, but I think it's really much more intriguing in combinations than by itself. Others have reported low to moderate recreational value on its own relative to most other dissociatives, and I mostly agree, but after four separate combo sessions I think it's my favorite dissociative to mix with others in the same class, and that's taking account of a wide range of dissociative experience, including ketamine, DXM, 3-MeO-PCP, 3-ho-PCP, 4-MeO-PCP, MXE, and nitrous. Use it early on in the day or make sure you have no conflicts on your schedule the next.

My experiences are in the latter parts of the Big & Dandy Amantadine and Memantine thread.

 

[MyExcuse]

I'm planning on trying this one, again, at a very high dose! I'm quite excited...

I've tried Memantine before, in the past, and found it moderately recreational on its own. My first experience with memantine was quite pleasant. I consumed 100mg and meditated for a number of hours in bed, feeling euphoric and peaceful. The effects reminded me of DXM but had a guiding force that was somewhat reminiscent of Ketamine (which I feel is lacking in the DXM experience).

I feel that memantine can give a hole experience if the dosing is high enough, at least I'm hopeful. A 4-6 hour hole would be simply divine!

I'm expecting to use nicotine in order to mitigate any of the effects the nACH antagonism might have on the experience. Plus, nothing beats a hit of nicotine while on a dissociative.

One thing I'm interested in is the combination of Memantine with tryptamines. From doing some reading, it would seem that it does not have any negative interaction with MAOI's. This would mean that it might even be safe to combine with pharmahuasca! That would be a unique experience, no nausea, a deeper psychedelic experience, one can only imagine.

 

[psood0nym]

^I'm glad someone else found it enjoyable on its own, too. How high of a dose are you thinking to attempt a memantine "hole"? I'd think at least 200 mg for the non-tolerant person would be needed, but hope you'd try 150 mg or less first. Here's an interesting case from a medical journal regarding ketamine and MAOIs:

A 42-year-old woman taking tranylcypromine, a monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitor, was hypovolemic.from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy and required an emergency laparotomy. Anesthetic induction with ketamine, an agent with sympathomimetic properties, was used because o f her hypovolemia, despite theoretical concerns of precipitating an adrenergic crisis. The patient's hemodynamic course remained unchanged with induction and incubation, and with further fluid and blood administration, satisfactory hemodynamic conditions were obtained. This report is believed to be the first to describe the use of ketamine in a patient taking MAO inhibitors.

These concerns about precipitating an adrenergic crisis are why I've never attempted to combine dissociatives with ayahuasca, though like you I think it could be an experience beyond imagining. I have combined synthetic DMT with ketamine during a ketamine/synthetic psilocin trip before. I posted about it way back when but it was easy to find in the archives using Google:

From the hour that follows I can take nothing. In some ways it has been the most phenomenal experience of my life, yet it is without memories or insights. I learn nothing and can’t accept that that is so. I decide I will endure the doubt again--wherein all self-reference and control has evaporated and I can hope for nothing but that these rhythms of my body will at some distant time carry me back to myself--before I will accept that. As soon as I am minimally able to I prepare ~40mg of DMT and another 25mg of ketamine for injection. I hope that by approaching the experience from a different perceptual angle I can see SOMETHING.

It begins promisingly. The largely involuntary idiomotor movements don’t seem to be coming back, perhaps I can maintain perspective if my body is not in the thrall of the experience. Then, in the course of a few seconds, I’m gripped in the coils of the DMT-steel-constrictor, its brilliant razor scales shredding me into bloody rivers of sensation, each following its own torturous course forever away from understanding or any bearing of coherent perception. Something behind my face melts, gurgles, and runs down my throat. A few centimeters above my head I feel the impossible tactile sensations of tiny explosions of hot sand. The particles rain down onto my face and into my eyes where they are rapidly absorbed and can be felt pumping through my veins. I ask myself to describe it, to peak my head above the surface of this process for just a second so I can look down at its water and know that that is why I’m wet. But I can’t get beyond the textures of the experience itself. The manifold lenses of my working memory have collapsed into a single frame that magnifies this one channel of experience to the exclusion of all others. It’s the same intractable situation I was in during the trip an hour ago. And in my despair the same vision I had then recurs now:

I see and feel myself sitting cross-legged in a shallow pool, my own viscera spilled out of my body, draping onto my legs through my fingers. I am frantically inspecting my digestive system, searching for something to eat. I recognize what I’m being mercifully shown, and consequently the futility of my pursuit to understand what’s been happening. The vision has a purpose, its subconscious designer has an imbued it with an undeniable wisdom, and I can trust from that wisdom that at some consciously impenetrable level my experience has been comprehended, and that I am complete.

... it was quite an experience. Still, I find ayahuasca far more immersing than synthetic DMT taken orally with an MAOI or synthetic DMT intramuscularly injected on its own. I'm not sure what it is (I typically use harmala and MHRB), but ayahuasca involves these thrilling "surges" while synthetic DMT has always been a steady, albeit still intense, sort of experience. For this reason I've always wanted to try a dissociative with ayahuasca, but I'm nevertheless very hesitant to mix anything with an MAOI but trytamines I've read previous reports about. If you do it I'd say you should start small and do successively larger doses of the MAOI taken after memantine over many many sessions until you reach the doses of MAOI needed to make pharmahuasca work. Unfortunately, due to the length of memantine such a process may take a very long time before you can try the combination, but you must agree it beats potentially dieing horribly, heh.

I also plan on combining memantine with tryptamines, though for me it will likely involve the addition of ketamine, DXM, or maybe MXE. I have a couple nicotine patches I was planning to use for inducing intense dream states, so I'll have to cut off a slice for memantine sometime. Interesting idea.

 

[MyExcuse]

Dose will be 300mg, I'm very tolerant to dissociatives and I'm hoping this dose will give me a deep experience. Ketamine has long ago lost its luster, and MXE simply doesn't consistently give the depth that I crave. It's a shame that there is no easy way to reverse dissociative tolerance...

I've combined memantine with other dissociatives before, MXE and 3-MeO-PCP, but found it only added a degree of unsettling confusion.

Just waiting for the right time to take this journey, which should be 01/08. I'll be back to report around then.

An edit before my near approaching journey.

A week ago I did a tester dose of 170mg. This was different, I'm in a much healthier space now than I was in the past when I had tried this substance. The effects were very unique, much more like DXM but very lucid. I watched a few movies and thoughts swirled around my head. Memories, feelings, emotions of times past all intermingled with the viewing experience. I was more engaged watching a simplistic action-adventure film than I've been watching more thought-provoking films while sober.

The dose was taken at 6AM and effects were moderate by 8AM, fully felt by 10AM. Full level effects lasted 4 hours and began to tapper until 6PM. Sleep was difficult and unfulfilling and effects were still noticed late into the next day. Again sleep was less than rewarding on the second day, risperidone and etizolam were taken to enhance what little I got.

One disconcerting aspect was the rise in blood pressure. I'm a regular nicotine user and have a stressful job often working 16 hours a day, so my BP is usually elevated. I noticed a 10-20 point increase in resting BP in days after the memantine. This resolved itself after 3 days but not without experiencing some unpleasant tightness in the chest and shortness of breath.

There are two non-fatal overdoses on record for memantine, one with 2,000mg in a single dose and another with 400mg in a single dose. According to the literature, 300mg is considered a "toxic dose".

The patient who consumed 2,000mg fell into a coma and experienced convulsions and delirium which lasted 10 days. An intensive blood scrubbing therapy was employed to remove the memantine from her system and she recovered without lasting effect.

The patient who consumed 400mg faired much better and only suffered typical side effects (hallucinations, ataxia, stupor, etc.). Both had dramatically increased blood pressure.

I would say that the biggest risk involved with this substance in relation to its recreational potential stems from the increase in blood pressure. A healthy individual would have no real issue from this, but if you're predisposed to cardiovascular issues it would be wise to steer clear from this substance.

I'm sticking with my plan, to consume 300mg in about 3 days. I wish I knew what effect of the drug caused a rise in blood pressure, I assume it is the dopamine agonism. It would be interesting to block that aspect and see if one can go deeper into the effects without risk/worry of some type of cardiovascular event.

 

[MyExcuse]

So I did end up going on my 300mg journey, the trip report can be found here.

I loved it, the blood pressure effects were still there but milder this time. I think I might have just been too exhausted or sick the previous time I experimented.

I've purchased a significant quantity of the pure powder from a wholesale pharmaceutical supplier for future experimentation.

 

[knockout_mice]

50mg of memantine was highly enjoyable with similarities to ketamine, but with a clearer, more 'functional' headspace. It's worth noting that it made me unable to sleep for ~12 hours. Plateau was reached 2-3 hours after oral dosing (in pepsi). Willing to try 75-100mg next time.

 

[Solipsis]

Moved a trip report to the TR section, wanna thank everyone for writing one I am sure it is much appreciated by the community if not only by me.

 

[knockout_mice]

I found something really interesting.

Donepezil markedly potentiates memantine neurotoxicity in the adult rat brain
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246087/

It seems that ACh agonists make NMDA antagonists (memantine, ketamine, etc) more neurotoxic. I don't know if it's true for nicotinic AChR agonists (nicotine), but they tested it with a muscarinic ACh agonist and it had the same effect as donepezil (which is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, so it elevates ACh levels)

They tested the neurotoxicity of memantine alone, which is more relevant to our interests.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2246087/figure/F2/

This dosages are for rats, so we should convert them for humans:

X mg/kg * 0.16 (rat-to-human conversion ratio) * 65 (average human body weight in kgs)

15 mg/kg memantine -> 156 mg - No observed neurotoxicity
20 mg/kg memantine -> 208 mg - "Very mild neurotoxicity"
30 mg/kg memantine -> 312 mg - "Very mild neurotoxicity"
50 mg/kg memantine -> 520 mg - "Quite severe neurotoxicity"

Funnily, John W. Olney worked on this paper.

 

[psood0nym]

^Nice post, knockout. Since they hypothesize the damage owes to glutimate-mediated excitotoxicity, I'm surprised in their discussion of potential implications for human users that they never brought up the ketamine findings on monkeys:

There is thus no published evidence at this time (January 2000) that ketamine can produce toxic cell changes in monkeys. The unpublished monkey data that we know about, that of Frank Sharp, actually shows that there is no damage at doses up to 10mg/kg.

Then again, when one of your authors has a brain lesion with his name on it it's probably faux pas to imply the mechanism of its cause may not apply to people using NDMA antagonists. Whether or not memantine does lead to glutimate toxicity in humans, I seriously doubt it's as severe as in rats. It's probably good that very few are interested in taking over 156mg of an atypical dissociative that lasts 24 hours just in case, though, and profoundly less than that looking to do 312mg+.

 

[Amu]

So I recently added 10 mg memantine HCL in the morning to my regimen of Parnate / Dexedrine and it's been almost inhibiting the positive effects of both, I feel my mood/energy is blunted rather than augmented. Anyone have input regarding this?

 

[Zilpe]

As was mentioned memantine has an anti-nootropic effect at the begining of a regime due to it's action on ACh receptors. That could be contributing to the blunting of mood/energy you've described. In addition with such a long half-life I think dosing every other day would be smarter. I have notice that mematine seems to block the effects of nicotine which seems to help one quit smoking but in light of what knockout_mice posted maybe it should be avoided entirely. It does seem to add a nice very subtle buzz to a nootropic regime as well as preventing the potential glutaminergic excitotoxicity of strong ampakines but the temptation to dose slightly higher is always there and with that ridiculous half-life you almost always regret it.
You get this hey I'm feeling decent maybe if I add 10 more mg I'll still be able to study and feel even better.