Tryptamines The Big & Dandy 5-MeO-MiPT Thread - Part 2

[unodelacosa]

Interesting. I use to take a blotter and watch NFL games while noodling on a guitar with special effects. Like plan for it. Never added ambien. Weed yes. I really dig how different we all are. Ambien, acid and NBA. Totally cool.

Yes, it’s something to do once in a while. If you take acid, wait, and the take Ambien or a benzo like Xanax, it’s going to kill the trip and end with a weird experience. However, if you pre-game with the benzo, and then about halfway through, before passing out, drop some acid, and that’s ticket. The benzo never puts you under and you dodge the nervous come up from. Cuts the psychedelic‘s strength a little, but that’s not always a bad thing, like say in social situations, or whilst trying to watch some basketball, lol.

That is a good way to look at a drug. It does help to think positively on what we do (unless it is kicking our ass).

Bingo. But again: this is not for everyone.

I go back and forth, not good for the brain, but extra sleep is when someone needs it.

I don’t think there’s anything particularly bad for the brain here provided one is moderate about the intensity and frequency of these experiences.

So occasional use works for me too. One thing I would never say though (and you did not really say Uno just using this space to bring it up) is that benzos give me peace.

I tried to avoid saying “never” and most absolutes in general.

Peace is a state of mind.

It has to do with the lack of conflict. This can go beyond a state of mind and often involves foreign diplomacy between two warring states. I see a good benzo like a talented diplomat or peace liaison between two warring factions inside of myself.

I guess sleep can be peaceful.

Personally, that all depends on the type of dreams I have that night.

Also I notice when I do take a benzo at the tail end of a trip as soon as it hits I can stuff my face with food.

They’re appetite enhancers. Benzo munchies are a thing.

For me I like having all gabapentinoids or benzos out of my system for at least a week.

Yes, like most drugs, they’re better without a tolerance. Also, avoid tolerance and you’re avoiding dependency at the same time. Doesn’t mean you can’t use the drug; you should just use it less frequently. In the interim, try using a different drug. By varying your drug intake, you can vary mitigate your risk of developing a drug problem, but only if you exercise discipline.

I never tried 5-MEO-MIPT.

Try it; it’s great.

But when/if it comes my way I will as it is on the shorter end of the time spectrum. The only long trips I will take these days is acid and cactus.

Give me a break. I hear so many people say this these days. Look, there’s only one family of classic psychedelic drugs that I know of that last super long: the DOx compounds. Otherwise, if you get started on a Friday night after work, plan on staying up that night and well into Saturday, then recover on Sunday, and there’s really no reason why you can’t take a 8 - 12 hours psychedelic drug, like a lysergamide. Actually that’s more than enough time to trip on a DOx drug. You just have to carve out time for it and not dread the time commitment so much. It’s not for everyone though.

When it comes to the 2 day trips of like say DOC I have to live with reading reports.

I don’t quite understand what you mean by this. You have to “live with reading reports”? What reports? Are you saying you just experience it variously through reading the reports of others? Why is that something you must “live with.” As in “make due with” because you’re not willing to commit to a longer trip experience? Why do you make it sound like you have to settle for this outcome and “live with” the settlement, as though what your heart actually desires is to have the trip, but forces beyond your control won’t allow it, le sigh, so you guess you just have to live with reading reports about it instead. Aw, shucks.

Or how about: learn how to use dark net markets safely, locate and order the drugs of your dreams, make time in your schedule and explore your mind? You won’t be this age forever; do this shit now while you can. Or it isn’t important enough to you, which is fine as well – I’m not knocking that at all; different strokes for different folks and I keep saying that drugs are not for everyone – but maybe it’s worth consideration?

 

[JackARoe]

I don’t quite understand what you mean by this. You have to “live with reading reports”? What reports? Are you saying you just experience it variously through reading the reports of others?

Sorry Uno, I did leave some info out of that statement to make it confusing. Been tripping since 1977. So I am 60 now, not sure I could endure a 40 hour trip. I am always open to hear someone elder did a DOx. So for now I have to forgo taking the long trips and be satisfied reading reports on them as much as I would love to try one.

5-MEO-MIPT seems to be a good duration if someone does not want to trip all day. Again I will with acid or cactus. Just not keen to drop a DOx.

 

[Mjäll]

What's the USP of psychedelic amphetamines? Can they be approximated (except duration) by mixing lysergamides and dopaminergic stimulants? Does anyone know if they have a pharmacological characteristic, such as unusually high affinity for some receptor relative to some other?

This class of drugs is intriguing to me. I know we're already off topic but in good spirit so i figured i may throw this question here.

 

[unodelacosa]

Been tripping since 1977. So I am 60 now, not sure I could endure a 40 hour trip.

I’m sure you could endure it if you’re in good health, though I understand not wanting to; that’s different. And to be fair, last time I used DOB, I tapped out w/clonazolam.

satisfied reading reports on them as much as I would love to try one.

In all honesty, DOM is not that crazy, doesn’t last too long compared to the others, and can be subverted with benzos. If you were going to try one, I would recommend it over DOB, DOI, and DOC.

5-MEO-MIPT seems to be a good duration if someone does not want to trip all day.

Moxy is great. Sometimes I mix it w/PG and vaporize it. Comes on quickly, and lasts ~2hrs.

I’ve also vaporized some DOx drugs. I mix it w/water + soda ash to make it a freebase oil which will vaporize and can be inhaled. I do this all at once at the end of a glass oil burner, just depositing a measured amount of the drug, a pinch of soda ash and a drop or two of dH₂O – just enough to dissolve the drug and soda ash and let them react when the heat is added. The heat will first drive the reaction to freebase the drug and then it will drive off the water as vapor followed immediately by the freebase drug vapor.

If you do this, start with a smaller amount than you might take orally, b/c it hits hard. It also cuts the duration by almost half. The experience is more ethereal and less of a body buzz, so I feel strongly it misses out on an essential component to the trip, but it isn’t all lost. This RoA is useful in time management situations, and it’s not without it’s own unique charms, either. Just thought I’d mention that.

What's the USP of psychedelic amphetamines?

What do you mean? United States Pharmacopeia? In general, psychedelic amphetamines are alpha-methylated phenethylamines that have a 2,5-dimethoxy substitution and another 4-position substitution that varies and gives each compound its name, (e.g.: DOB = 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine; while DOI = 4-iodo-2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine). More info on DOx on Wikipedia.

Can they be approximated (except duration) by mixing lysergamides and dopaminergic stimulants?

That’s a subjective opinion sort of thing. Maybe to some people, sure, but to me, no. Mixing psychedelics with stimulants typically is an awful experience for me. At least, crossing peaks of them over the other is nasty feeling. It kills the trip just enough to make the peak lackluster and at the same time, there’s nothing smooth at all about the stimulant feeling. I’m just a nervous jangled bunch of nerves with highly dilated pupils and a really noticeably bad short-term memory.

Contrast that to any of the DOx drugs – these have energy waves for days, but they’re euphoric and they play along with the psychedelia, the music appreciation and the depth of insight and exquisite visual display. It’s quite a cleaner, more impressive effect to watch DOC unfold across a desert sky, or DOI to sparkle across the festival during a sundown set of your favorite act. Get what I’m saying?

Does anyone know if they have a pharmacological characteristic, such as unusually high affinity for some receptor relative to some other?

IIRC, DOB has some exceptional NSAID properties; it’s anti-inflammatory evidently. Have you searched Google Scholar or a similar search engine for academic papers?

This class of drugs is intriguing to me. I know we're already off topic but in good spirit so i figured i may throw this question here.

Maybe look into the Shulgin index, and of course PiHKAL has info maybe worth revisiting if you’re interested. The RC scene has produced a number of new DOx compounds since Shulgin’s work – a good starting point is the aforementioned Wikipedia post, perhaps.

Personally, I’m a little fascinated with aminorex compounds. Moving a little bit back on topic, I wonder what happens if we alpha-methylate 5-MeO-MiPT… probably kills its activity. But then again, aMT is active…

 

[Didgital]

So while Moxy has never really been my favorite, I decided to check it out again after prolly close to 5 years. My first experience was orally, which was underwhelming/disappointing, especially cuz I had a beautiful and willing female partner and it really just spaced us out, could have been set/setting or less likely, maybe we dosed too high though. A few years later I tossed a little bit of fumarate on top of some weed and found it was much more satisfying.

A few things are apparent.
I much prefer inhalation (smoking/vape) to oral though it's apparently the same or even weaker potency. My typical smoked dose is around 20mg. Orally I took that too, and found them to be 2 very different experiences.

The intensity is a lot stronger w inhalation than orally though somehow it seems to have a similar total duration. Smoked I find the peak around the 45 minute mark, and I'm probably 90% back around the 4 hr mark though psychonaut wiki says total duration is still 8 hrs, I'm ready to sleep at hour 4. Still, the other night I had 2 separate sessions (approx 20-25mg) spaced 3 hours apart and I did not sleep at all that night.

These most recent sessions had me reminded at least physically of 5-meo-DMT.

All in all, I find it a very pleasurable drug, and I'm annoyed I initially wrote it off. The only really obvious negative effect I noticed, is around the peak and trailing behind, my stomach felt very tight and uncomfortable. This happened both of my sessions, but wore off pretty quickly. I get similar and maybe even stronger GI issues with 5-meo-DIPT which leads me to my question.

----

All this said, I am wondering if anyone here could discuss 5-meo-DIPT inhalation. Orally at least, I much preferred it to 5-meo-MIPT. I think I'd like to try it inhaled, but figured I'd ask here if anyone has 1st hand knowledge of both compounds and both ROA's.

 

[unodelacosa]

These most recent sessions had me reminded at least physically of 5-meo-DMT.

Yeah both drugs tend to nauseate me.

I get similar and maybe even stronger GI issues with 5-meo-DIPT which leads me to my question.

Foxy is known for doing that. It does wear off quickly. Moxy tends to be less nauseating, I find, but also a bit less psychedelic. If used as an entactogen, it doesn't matter much though.

All this said, I am wondering if anyone here could discuss 5-meo-DIPT inhalation. Orally at least, I much preferred it to 5-meo-MIPT. I think I'd like to try it inhaled, but figured I'd ask here if anyone has 1st hand knowledge of both compounds and both ROA's.

Yes, I have done both compounds via both routes of administration dozens of times. I've vaporized it out of glass oil burners – do note that it will really fuck up the glass and leave a staining residue that's challenging to get out (though the trick is to use sodium hydroxide, aka NaOH, aka lye) – and I've dissolved it into PG/VG to make an e-juice that I fill into either tanks or cartridges. These are very effective and have the added advantage of dialing in the right temperature to avoid burning it.

I've also mixed either compound with a touch of sodium carbonate (soda ash) and a drop of water, right in the oil burner, and then added heat and vaporized it that way. It certainly seems more effective, probably because it's freebasing the drug into its oil form before it's inhaled, and the base form probably has a lower boiling point, also helping it vaporize more effectively without burning.

Inhalation of this drug is much more ethereal. It hits faster and the duration is significantly cut back. Ultimately though I think I prefer taking it orally.

Recently I've been vaporizing allylescaline. To my surprise, it vaporizes cleanly, leaving no residue behind even, which is pretty badass.

 

[Achten]

Just adding my latest experience:

Went to a rave and took
T0: 2,25mg DOC
T+6h: 150mcg ALLAD
t+9h: 5mg 5meomipt.

The 5meomipt was a perfect addon. New surge of energy and euphoria. But all the while still grounded in this reality. With eyes open that was, eyes closed i lived in a colorful palace .

People around us were astonished as to were our energy kept coming from .

 

[unodelacosa]

Just adding my latest experience:

Went to a rave and took
T0: 2,25mg DOC
T+6h: 150mcg ALLAD
t+9h: 5mg 5meomipt.

The 5meomipt was a perfect addon. New surge of energy and euphoria. But all the while still grounded in this reality. With eyes open that was, eyes closed i lived in a colorful palace .

People around us were astonished as to were our energy kept coming from .

Interesting order. I think it's best to start with simpler molecules and work up from there. So starting with DOC makes sense as it's an amphetamine which is a type of phenethylamine. I would've opted for the tryptamine next and finally graduated to the lysergamide last, following this logic, but I'm glad the Moxy still had an effect on you guys. Rad stuff, keep rocking out.

 

[Didgital]

So I have had several recent experiences with this compound, it may be my fav fully synthetic tryptamine.

What I want to report that recently I took DMT at the moxy peak and it was INSANE. The 2 compounds complement and synergize so well, it almost feels like 5-Meo-DMT particularly the body feel. My moxy dose was pretty hefty because I find it a pretty subtle compound (prolly around 25-30mg smoked) but my DMT dose was quite small (2 tokes off a vape cart), in a sober state I would have barely felt it. It was also extremely visual especially CEVs. Saw spirits, saw some pretty scary imagery so I actually kept my eyes open for most of it the visuals were that disturbing. Also it seemed to REALLY extend the DMT.

Really, the only negative in my eyes about 5-Meo-MIPT lasts just a little longer than I'd prefer. It may be my higher dosing, but I tend to feel the effects at least 8 hours maybe even residuals up to 10. Shulgin says 4-6 hours which I do not find to be true. There is a pretty steep dropoff in that range, but i feel lingering effects for quite some time.

Oh and I tried 5-meo-dipt inhaled. Very intense I think I prefer that one orally.

 

[Pfafffed]

Great, isn't it?

25-30mg smoked probably doesn't equate to TIHKAL's oral duration with 4-6mg. I think it had a dose of 12-20mg smoked at a 7hr duration

 

[gardenhead]

Last night, I experimented with 5-MeO-MiPT. I was expecting it to be stimulating because of so many reports about how good it is as a party drug, but my experience was very couch-locking. I feel my stomach so tight and uncomfortable that there were times I was unable to move. It was very hard on my body (10mg, ~51kg, F). I want to believe that taking ginger and magnesium may help with these issues and I'll try it next time.

I'm open to ideas on how to mitigate this terrible body load.

 

[Mjäll]

Last night, I experimented with 5-MeO-MiPT. I was expecting it to be stimulating because of so many reports about how good it is as a party drug, but my experience was very couch-locking. I feel my stomach so tight and uncomfortable that there were times I was unable to move. It was very hard on my body (10mg, ~51kg, F). I want to believe that taking ginger and magnesium may help with these issues and I'll try it next time.

I'm open to ideas on how to mitigate this terrible body load.

I would've had a full on trip at that dose, adjusted for weight and perhaps depending on salt form. What was your experience? Was the desired effect achieved?

Maybe a lower dose could be good, combined with some weed and a dissociative. Fasting is always helpful ime.

Just some ideas.

 

[gardenhead]

I would've had a full on trip at that dose, adjusted for weight and perhaps depending on salt form. What was your experience? Was the desired effect achieved?

Maybe a lower dose could be good, combined with some weed and a dissociative. Fasting is always helpful ime.

Just some ideas.

I had a trip, but it was not very pleasurable due to the discomfort, I find the compound to be very interesting it gave me very beautiful visuals at the beginning. The visuals were very different from LSD or shrooms, they were not geometric/linear but more rococo-stylized.
I didn't like the headspace, it seemed shallow to me, but I was not able to dive in, mostly because of the discomfort which was always in my head, disturbing my trip experience. It was my second time experimenting with the substance; the first was just 2mg with other compounds (borax combo), and it was a much more pleasurable but different experience.
Weed helped me with my nausea (smoked after the peak around the 3h mark because i was afraid of potentially intensifying everything and ruining my trip, lmao, it potentiates it and helps but i believe it change the trip (qualitatively)..
I'm now curious about mixing with ketamine, thanks for the input!!

 

[unodelacosa]

I had a trip, but it was not very pleasurable due to the discomfort, I find the compound to be very interesting it gave me very beautiful visuals at the beginning. The visuals were very different from LSD or shrooms, they were not geometric/linear but more rococo-stylized.
I didn't like the headspace, it seemed shallow to me, but I was not able to dive in, mostly because of the discomfort which was always in my head, disturbing my trip experience. It was my second time experimenting with the substance; the first was just 2mg with other compounds (borax combo), and it was a much more pleasurable but different experience.
Weed helped me with my nausea (smoked after the peak around the 3h mark because i was afraid of potentially intensifying everything and ruining my trip, lmao, it potentiates it and helps but i believe it change the trip (qualitatively)..
I'm now curious about mixing with ketamine, thanks for the input!!

Ketamine synergizes with Moxy for me. It also helps take the edge off the body load. Another technique to help with this is to vaporize the 5-MeO-MiPT carefully with low heat either in a dedicated oil burner glass pipe / 'meth pipe', from a DMT 'The Machine' steel mesh + inverted liquor bottle w/glass-drillbit-drilled hole in the bottom setup, or if you're feeling froggy, a low-heat dabs rig or e-rig. In a pinch you can also use the 'sandwich' method of packing it in the middle of a bowl of weed and/or weed ash to 'catch' the Moxy when it becomes a liquid upon vaporizing.

Inhalation shortens both the come-up and the duration, and it mitigates the degree to which the drug feels 'in the body'. The trip is much more ethereal this way while still affording its top merits. The brevity is also welcomed in my opinion, bc otherwise the sustained body load is almost exclusively suited to dancing at a rave or festival or having sex or doing something physical / lightly athletic. It lends itself well to physical activity. Vaping it takes most of this pressure down. Also bc it hits so quickly you can more accurately and rapidly assess how high you are relative to how high you want to be. Hope this helps!

 

[gardenhead]

Ketamine synergizes with Moxy for me. It also helps take the edge off the body load. Another technique to help with this is to vaporize the 5-MeO-MiPT carefully with low heat either in a dedicated oil burner glass pipe / 'meth pipe', from a DMT 'The Machine' steel mesh + inverted liquor bottle w/glass-drillbit-drilled hole in the bottom setup, or if you're feeling froggy, a low-heat dabs rig or e-rig. In a pinch you can also use the 'sandwich' method of packing it in the middle of a bowl of weed and/or weed ash to 'catch' the Moxy when it becomes a liquid upon vaporizing.

Inhalation shortens both the come-up and the duration, and it mitigates the degree to which the drug feels 'in the body'. The trip is much more ethereal this way while still affording its top merits. The brevity is also welcomed in my opinion, bc otherwise the sustained body load is almost exclusively suited to dancing at a rave or festival or having sex or doing something physical / lightly athletic. It lends itself well to physical activity. Vaping it takes most of this pressure down. Also bc it hits so quickly you can more accurately and rapidly assess how high you are relative to how high you want to be. Hope this helps!

Thanks for the info. I didn't think smoking it would work (I'm new to this compound) but it seems to be a really good idea! Next time, I will definitely smoke it and try a bump of ket if it is still uncomfortable.

Erowid categorizes my oral dosage as "heavy" while smoking 10mg would be considered "common". So, I'm guessing a 10mg oral dose translates to a 20mg smoked dose, right?
Do you believe if I smoke it with the sandwich method with caapi it would be okay? I don't know about the interaction of this substance with MAOIs, but I believe the smoked caapi has very little MAOI activity anyway. Weed would be ideal because it's more "sticky" but I'm a little afraid of mixing it at the beginning of the trip.
thanks in advance,
love and light for the community

 

[Pfafffed]

Thanks for the info. I didn't think smoking it would work (I'm new to this compound) but it seems to be a really good idea! Next time, I will definitely smoke it and try a bump of ket if it is still uncomfortable.

Erowid categorizes my oral dosage as "heavy" while smoking 10mg would be considered "common". So, I'm guessing a 10mg oral dose translates to a 20mg smoked dose, right?
Do you believe if I smoke it with the sandwich method with caapi it would be okay? I don't know about the interaction of this substance with MAOIs, but I believe the smoked caapi has very little MAOI activity anyway. Weed would be ideal because it's more "sticky" but I'm a little afraid of mixing it at the beginning of the trip.
thanks in advance,
love and light for the community

A majority of people report that smoking it is much less potent than oral. Theories as to why vary.

I love the material and have used it up to ~12mg. My sweet spot is 6.25mg, though. After about 7.5, the body load gets annoying for me. Magnesium typically helps, but when taken orally, it's one that I find shines at lower levels. It's a grue psychedelic, but for me that manifests at higher doses than is pleasant and is really chasing something it's not suited for. It's weird and interesting, but cognitively and visually light, and that's fine.

FWIW, I have friends that have told me that they found it uncomfortably stimulating at 2.5mg, so the dosage does vary quite a bit.

I've found that adding just a little bit of N,N-MiPT fills out the space so that I don't feel like it's missing something.

 

[unodelacosa]

Thanks for the info. I didn't think smoking it would work (I'm new to this compound) but it seems to be a really good idea! Next time, I will definitely smoke it and try a bump of ket if it is still uncomfortable.

Not to be a stickler, but you have to be careful that you don't in fact smoke it, b/c radiant energy from an open flame can destroy the compound. To maximize the efficiency, make sure you're vaporizing it, like with an oil burner where the glass protects the chemical from the radiant energy but still allows heat to transfer.

I've also dissolved it into a 3% nicotine e-juice I like and loaded that into a Vaporesso pod + battery unit and ripped it that way. That probably worked the best honestly, plus nicotine acts as a mild MAOI.

Erowid categorizes my oral dosage as "heavy" while smoking 10mg would be considered "common". So, I'm guessing a 10mg oral dose translates to a 20mg smoked dose, right?

Something like that. Ease into it at first.

Do you believe if I smoke it with the sandwich method with caapi it would be okay?

I don't know. Probably depends on the doses used and your bodyweight and personal enzymology, shit like that, ya know?

I don't know about the interaction of this substance with MAOIs, but I believe the smoked caapi has very little MAOI activity anyway.

All monoamines are affected by MAOIs. To identify an amine, look for a NH₃ molecule or the word "amine" in the chemical name. So all tryptamines, phenthylamines & amphetamines are included here. If Alexander Shulgin listed it in PiHKAL or TiHKAL, MAOIs interact with it, preventing the drug from clearing the synapses and potentially leading to overdose on otherwise low doses.

That's not to say it isn't safe to smoke caapi with 5-MeO-MiPT – it might be fine – I just don't know for sure enough to tell you or make a recommendation beyond – I would err on the side of caution and not mix these two drugs together. Save the caapi for DMT and instead of using green buds, save some ashes from a bowl or joint and pack that into the bowl, sandwich in the tryptamine, and top it with a bit more ash. Another alternative is to sandwich it into dried mint leaves.

Weed would be ideal because it's more "sticky" but I'm a little afraid of mixing it at the beginning of the trip.

To each their own.

thanks in advance,
love and light for the community

 

[unodelacosa]

I've found that adding just a little bit of N,N-MiPT fills out the space so that I don't feel like it's missing something.

When you say this, do you mean that MiPT provides the visual psychedelic component? To me, 5-MeO-MiPT does not bring much at all in the way of visuals, but that's not what that drug is all about in my mind, either. I think of both Moxy and Foxy as being inherently erotic drugs that enhance sexual experience, bring on impressive entactogenic qualities without being pushy about it. If one has a sex partner willing to experiment with this, it can be a breathtakingly amazing experience roughly on par with 2C-B or methamphetamine in terms of enhancement. PDE5 inhibitors are recommended but not necessarily needed if you don't need it ordinarily. Remember: PDE5 inhibitors are performance enhancers, not just treatment for erectile dysfunction.

So when I'm on Moxy or Foxy, and I'm not having a … shall we say romantic evening? Then I need some form of physical activity to do – like dancing or hiking – to use that nervous excitement energy. Otherwise, yeah, it can cause uncomfortable body load and I'll find myself trying to smoke myself calm with cannabis or even just bailing with a benzodiazepine.

 

[Pfafffed]

When you say this, do you mean that MiPT provides the visual psychedelic component?

No, I don't mean that, but it does add a little visual activity for me. 5-HO-DMT is possibly the most visual psychedelic I've ever used, but it's clear-headed. Even vaped N,N-DMT is fairly cognitively light. 5-MeO-MiPT can leave me feel a little hungry for something more full-spectrum, and N,N-MiPT feels like it rounds it out

 

[unodelacosa]

No, I don't mean that, but it does add a little visual activity for me. 5-HO-DMT is possibly the most visual psychedelic I've ever used, but it's clear-headed. Even vaped N,N-DMT is fairly cognitively light. 5-MeO-MiPT can leave me feel a little hungry for something more full-spectrum, and N,N-MiPT feels like it rounds it out

So then how do you feel about 5-MeO-DMT? Do you find it visual or not really compared to n,n-DMT? I have my own thoughts but I don't want to "lead the witness" as it were.

Also, do you have experience specifically with 5-MeO-DiPT as opposed to 5-MeO-MiPT? Circa 2000, Foxy Methoxy, 5-MeO-DiPT, was one of the very first RCs I ever messed with that I had not synthesized myself. Prior to this I had the opportunity to synthesize and try DMMDA-2 and DMMDMA-2 (they were interesting, but the latter was hardly active while the former was very strong).