The Big & Dandy 25I-NBOMe Thread (3rd edition)

[doomsdayguy]

Hey guys I am looking for some advice. Now I am not experienced with psychedelics at all, I have only smoked a shitload of weed, some MDMA and done LSD once at a low dose (100mics). I have been meaning to get into psychedelics for along time now, the concept really interests me and I take it greatly upon myself to always seek personal development and I think I have a fairly strong and positive mindset.

Welcome to our thread. It helps to skim through any pages here and in the archived B&D threads to get as much information as possible, as almost all of your questions have been answered in the past.

I just got my hands on 15 x 600mic 25i-nbome tabs complexed. I was going to take 1 and a 1/2 tabs tomorrow morning so 900 mics.

Everyone on the thread here will recommend around 500ug for a first dose on blotter of this stuff. The dosage response curve gets very strange as dosage increases and negative side effects come out more and more. Compared to a 300ug dose, 600ug will not be equivalent to 2x300ug in trip intensity.

Safety is a huge factor for me and I have done probably upwards of 5 hours of reading on this particular substance and peoples experiences with it. I see recently people have been saying that a good starting dose is 500mics but I want to go higher.

You should spend more time reading on the substance. If safety is a huge factor for you, then you don't want to go higher than 500 ug. Do you understand the concept of harm reduction? The reason why we have elected a 500ug starting dose is because of the varying responses this chemical can have for people. What is 500ug to you, may be 3000ug (3mg) to someone else.

Here is something you need to understand about drug use: When you are putting a new chemical into your body with which you have zero experience, having the mind set that you currently have will get you into trouble.

You just can't say "Safety is a huge factor for me." and follow that up with "People say 500ug is a good start dose, but I want to go higher."

That is not safe at all. What if your first time was your last?

Every time I go to try something new it always ends up not working as effectively. I think a large reason for that is I am not a very sensitive person in general. I don't want to be left wanting more as I rarely get the opportunity to have a spare day to trip like this. Do you think taking 900mics is alright? I personally feel that I can handle it well and the person I bought it off said take 2 tabs if you are strong willed, you make feel anxious and scared at the start but it will pass. Take 1.5 tabs if you are not strong willed.

This is not a reason to think you need "more" of a drug on your first time using it. Once again, this is a chemical that has never been processed by your body.

Use of psychedelic drugs is a thing that takes patience and time. If you do not have either, you shouldn't dabble in them. It's as simple as that. Having limited time is not reason to dose higher than you need to your first time.

Allow me to reiterate a third time, you have never taken this chemical in your life.

I am not willing to do anything stupid and take over 1mg yet so I am thinking of going with his 1.5 tab advice. Also I will be trying it with 2 other friends and have fully informed them about the substance and the nature of it. They also seem to have a very low sensitivity to things in general compared to others.

So you're going to take 100ug less than 1mg and this is somehow not stupid? Where do you deduce that 1mg is "stupid?"

You need to read more about this drug. You also need your friends to read about this drug.

You are not a doctor, don't make laymen's speculation on "sensitivity" to drugs that you have no experience with. Especially don't make speculation on your friends' behalf. This is how you lose a friend.

 

[webdesignnomad]

Hey Doomsdayguy, you're right, I am not going to be a retard about this and we will all just dose 1 tab (600mics). It would be hard to break up our tab dosage to go less than that. I have skimmed through almost all of these threads, I see some people saying that redosing in a appropriate time span works fine. What's the general consensus for redosing with this substance, 2 hours into the experience if I feel like I can handle more, would redosing be possible?

 

[Transform]

Redosing does not appear to be possible because of the fierce tolerance gain from NBOMes.

If your 600ug is not complexed then that seems like a perfectly appropriate dose.

 

[webdesignnomad]

Redosing does not appear to be possible because of the fierce tolerance gain from NBOMes.

If your 600ug is not complexed then that seems like a perfectly appropriate dose.

And if it is complexed?

 

[weadazoid]

I thought Sepher has had some decent experiences with a redose. But I have to echo the sentiment that 500 to 600 ug is a good place to start, it's where I started and 1mg was vastlly different then 500, and far more potent then what I expected it to be.


500 to 600 should give everone a good idea of what it is, and how it affect you if taken sublingually or buccally.


On tolerances I discovered this product about a month and half ago so I can't personally attest to much as I played things very safe.. 500 ug to start then 2 weeks later a full 1mg with my wife... she took 700 to 800 ug and was pretty pleased but I was an early guide. I had a blast, but I was thankful for gaugeing it with 500. I did not have blotter though............... straight medical salt. We have plans to try and revisit it soon. By this friday it will have been a full month since my second experience with plans to try and revisit in january . .... my sample of 10mg will keep me happy for some time LOL ....

I think 1mg to start may have been overwhelming.



I would guess a redose at the 1 hour point would work BUT.... you would have to have had previous experience to gauge the ability to add more on. I would say much past 2 to 3 hours it is probably pointless.



Take into acount your health and bodyweight as well.... a thin girl like my wife 700 ug was clearly her sweetspot. me.. I could push it maybe to 1.2 mg based on what I have experienced maybe 1.5mg at the most and I am 200 lbs. Both of us are in good shape, non smokers healthy eaters.


People who smoke may be more suceptible to the vascoconstriction issue..... be advised of this


Take a magnesium supplement and a potasium supplement the day of your planned ride..... 25i based on a report from erowid may depleate these vital minerals. Magnesium supplements are said to reduce stres and increase immune systems anyway so it is a good thing..... reports sugest it may help with vasconstriction

 

[Sepher]

^Redosing does work when you're using the nasal ROA in vodka, yes, absolutely IME. At least to some extent. I'm sure tolerance is already becoming a factor by this point but I've had some solid extra push from redoses at around +3-4 hours with 25I and C, no question.

 

[slo mo]

^Redosing does work when you're using the nasal ROA in vodka, yes, absolutely IME. At least to some extent. I'm sure tolerance is already becoming a factor by this point but I've had some solid extra push from redoses at around +3-4 hours with 25I and C, no question.

To some extent is the part that causes uncertainty with dosing and ROA. If one wants to redose, this will take patience and then never to take that total all at once in a future session. Tolerance builds fast, just remember that. I recently redosed with 25C I believe twice after the initial dose . I also did the same with 25B on a separate occasion. The doses were taken within 2.5 hours from the first . This works, but I doubt it is even close to even a similar amount all at once. This was all nasal, so blotters would be a bit different.

 

[Darkstorn]

^Redosing does work when you're using the nasal ROA in vodka, yes, absolutely IME. At least to some extent. I'm sure tolerance is already becoming a factor by this point but I've had some solid extra push from redoses at around +3-4 hours with 25I and C, no question.

I agree, although i've never felt the urge to try redosing beyond one time. But it does work, relatively well too with the nasal route. I'm guessing the rapid onset has something to do with it, blotters are very slow in action in comparison. It's easier to feel something that hits you full on in 10 minutes. You could perhaps except 50%(or more) loss of efficiency, but even then it's still NBOMe and will definitely be more than intense for some.

The long term tolerance is the real issue and could lead to some problems with judgement; It did for me. 1 mg is intensive as shit but not unbearable for me. Doing 2 mg a week after was only slightly more intensive and gave me the wrong idea; I didn't know of any tolerance issues then. So, after a month, another 2 mg and the result is the single worst trip of my life.

 

[webdesignnomad]

Hey guys, so I am back to report my trip from this AMAZING substance. Some things to note, I have never had any proper psychedelic experience other than a 100 mircograms trip of acid. Me and 3 friends took 900 micrograms of this today complexed in a tab form. None of us had any experience with psychdelics. I know every said take only 500-600 but I personally felt very strong as a person and wanted to take a bit of a leap. I made sure we all did an allergy test before we did this. Not saying this for everyone but between 3 people, we all felt like 900 micrograms was the perfect dose to get started. We also felt this to be so manageable and not much of a mind fuck which was nice.

I think this is one of the perfect started psychedelic drugs around. I had more of a mindfuck on 100ug of acid than I did on this but the visuals were way more amazing. We all did experience a decent amount of nausea on the come up and felt like spweing for the first hour. After that it was completely fine. I honestly believe 500-600ug would have been a very lacking trip, not saying that for other it can't be extremmely strong. If you want to play it safe, it would be a good idea to start at that dose because you never know how a random substance is going to react with your body. Though if I were to recommend it to any of my personal friends I would tell them to take between 800-900ug and this is the consesus of 3 people who all did it.

Take into considering though that we may all be getting slightly different amounts to what you are told if you are getting it in blotter form which we were and we may well have gotten a different dose than what we were told or the product could have degraded.

 

[doomsdayguy]

Redosing does not appear to be possible because of the fierce tolerance gain from NBOMes.

If your 600ug is not complexed then that seems like a perfectly appropriate dose.

Redosing works fine on the same day with blotters for me. First time I tried this chem I had a 1mg tab and another at around T+5 or T+6 to kick the trip back up on the visuals. It wasn't back to the peak I originally got, but about 70-80% of that. Still overwhelming lol.

And if it is complexed?

There's a lot of confusion here. 600ug is a good dose for complexed blotter. If it were not complexed and still on blotter, it is the HCL salt which usually needs a little more because complexing increases absorption to 90-95%.

So, non complexed blotter, 1mg is good

Complexed, 600ug is good.

I agree, although i've never felt the urge to try redosing beyond one time. But it does work, relatively well too with the nasal route. I'm guessing the rapid onset has something to do with it, blotters are very slow in action in comparison. It's easier to feel something that hits you full on in 10 minutes. You could perhaps except 50%(or more) loss of efficiency, but even then it's still NBOMe and will definitely be more than intense for some.

The long term tolerance is the real issue and could lead to some problems with judgement; It did for me. 1 mg is intensive as shit but not unbearable for me. Doing 2 mg a week after was only slightly more intensive and gave me the wrong idea; I didn't know of any tolerance issues then. So, after a month, another 2 mg and the result is the single worst trip of my life.

What happened on the 2mg trip?

 

[RUSHDAFUNK]

I wanted to make a comment on 25i-nbome and really all the nbome's when it comes to tolerance and cross tolerance.
I have pretty much a lifetime supply of 25i-nbome which I normally use via nasal spray (mist spray not nasal drop). So I have countless diversities of experiences and methods of use with this.

Nbomes tolerance seem to have the the quickest tolerance build up and highest affected cross tolerance of anything I've done before. I'll some it up like this.

Nbome day 1 then nbome day 2===huge tolerance build up
2c-x day 1 then 2c-x day 2===moderate tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 then 4-aco-dmt day 2===moderate/ high tolerance build up
Doc day 1 then doc day 2 ==== moderate tolerance build up

Now watch what happens when you mix it up.

Nbome day 1 doc day 2====huge tolerance build up
nbome day 1 2c-x day 2===huge tolerance build up
nbome day 1 4-aco-dmt day 2====huge tolerance build up

2c-x day 1 doc day 2===small moderate tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 2c-x day 2 ===small tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 nbome day 2===moderate tolerance build up.

So if you intended on tripping multiple days in a row or more than once in a 7 day span, save the nbome for the last trip. If you take it first you will hugely reduce your chance of anything good happening the next day./

etc etc.

 

[weadazoid]

Interesting that you experienced nausea. That really did not happen to me or my wife. Did you guys drop on a full stomach? Don't get me wrong for a moment I felt queasy, but thats because... well mostly because of the TV, and finding technology milldly confusing. As soon as I turned off the TV and got into music I was OK.


Last time I dropped it was 3 hours after dinner


next time I am gonna go for 4 hours after a good lunch maybe 2 hours after a light snack

 

[Survived Abortion]

So, non complexed blotter, 1mg is good

Complexed, 600ug is good.

Correction: 1mg is good for you. But it might be way too intense for someone else.

Also, I'm not sure how you are working out these figures so absolutely. One of the things that is very apparent to me is that not only are people's optimal doses all over the place, but that there is wide variation in the response to the difference between complexed and un-complexed forms. In other words, whilst some people are reporting that complexation increases potency greatly, others are reporting that it doesn't seem to matter. And I feel this has more to do with the way it is being taken, such as the length of time it is being held in the mouth if taken subligually/bucally, as well as individual biology.

At this point, I don't believe any of us can rightly give a definitive "one size fits all" dosage recommendation for either complexed or uncomplexed forms. And because of that, I think we should avoid being so absolute. Let's encourage people to find their optimal doses properly via titration, not by handing them a voucher on a plate.

 

[ConspiracyTheory]

I wanted to make a comment on 25i-nbome and really all the nbome's when it comes to tolerance and cross tolerance.
I have pretty much a lifetime supply of 25i-nbome which I normally use via nasal spray (mist spray not nasal drop). So I have countless diversities of experiences and methods of use with this.

Nbomes tolerance seem to have the the quickest tolerance build up and highest affected cross tolerance of anything I've done before. I'll some it up like this.

Nbome day 1 then nbome day 2===huge tolerance build up
2c-x day 1 then 2c-x day 2===moderate tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 then 4-aco-dmt day 2===moderate/ high tolerance build up
Doc day 1 then doc day 2 ==== moderate tolerance build up

Now watch what happens when you mix it up.

Nbome day 1 doc day 2====huge tolerance build up
nbome day 1 2c-x day 2===huge tolerance build up
nbome day 1 4-aco-dmt day 2====huge tolerance build up

2c-x day 1 doc day 2===small moderate tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 2c-x day 2 ===small tolerance build up
4-aco-dmt day 1 nbome day 2===moderate tolerance build up.

So if you intended on tripping multiple days in a row or more than once in a 7 day span, save the nbome for the last trip. If you take it first you will hugely reduce your chance of anything good happening the next day./

etc etc.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

 

[mozaik0000]

I'm a bit puzzled as i read that people have been dissolving this in vodka, is it a problem that i dissolved mine in a apple spirit about 40% alcohol, or is only white alcohol such as vodka acceptable for conservation?
Thanks!

 

[weadazoid]

I'm a bit puzzled as i read that people have been dissolving this in vodka, is it a problem that i dissolved mine in a apple spirit about 40% alcohol, or is only white alcohol such as vodka acceptable for conservation?
Thanks!

It really all depends.... are you working with a powder, is it in HCL... if so it will disolve in pretty much anything including water ... well clean filtered water, distilled of minerals ... not tap water. If the powder is in free base form then you need to use something like citric acid first before any alchahol.





I think it is just easy to see the solution disolve with a clear liquor. BUT an argument could be made as well regarding the ability to simply let something like Belvy (Vodka) evaporate if you are intending to say release the HCL from whatever it was shipped in safely so you can scale it out and make sure you future doses are accurate. This is of course more appropriate when you don't have access to a full on lab.


I think the general rule is Vodka and say a good high alcahol content white rum tend to kill off any germs that may infiltrate your solution. Vodka tends to evaporate nicely, and cleanly.

Plus Vodka is good for storeing large amounts in the freazer. although I don't think there is evidence it has to be kept in the freezer, just away from sunlight for the UV obviously and in a generally cool dry place.


I think

 

[doomsdayguy]

Correction: 1mg is good for you. But it might be way too intense for someone else.

Also, I'm not sure how you are working out these figures so absolutely. One of the things that is very apparent to me is that not only are people's optimal doses all over the place, but that there is wide variation in the response to the difference between complexed and un-complexed forms. In other words, whilst some people are reporting that complexation increases potency greatly, others are reporting that it doesn't seem to matter. And I feel this has more to do with the way it is being taken, such as the length of time it is being held in the mouth if taken subligually/bucally, as well as individual biology.

At this point, I don't believe any of us can rightly give a definitive "one size fits all" dosage recommendation for either complexed or uncomplexed forms. And because of that, I think we should avoid being so absolute. Let's encourage people to find their optimal doses properly via titration, not by handing them a voucher on a plate.

Complexation absolutely increases absorption. The problem with non complexed 25i is that its solubility in water is so low (<10% ) that you literally cannot get high off of it if you try to make a blotter because you'll have 100ug... AND the absorption sucks... so freebase can really only be smoked or snorted.

If you use a chemical to turn your 25i into the HCL salt, both solubility and absorption go up to around 50-60%. This is still non complexed.

You're confused, because here we recommend ~500ug complexed for a first time, but for the HCL this is going to be about double that dose to get the same effects.

Complexing with HBPCD is like putting a condom over the molecule to get it across our skin membranes. It increases absorption to almost 90-100%.

Most blotter is going to be complexed anyways... It's not economical at all to blotter straight HCL salt. You lose half the product you're selling!

We can absolutely give a one size fits all first time dosage based on all of these threads...

Encourage people to find the optimal dose using titration? Are you kidding me? I don't care what you think is "safe," that's not how human beings operate. Most of the time this drug is found on blotters if you're getting it from any old street dealer. How is a laymen going to titrate that? Let's be realistic about this.

 

[Transform]

I would love to see some sources for that data. This debate has been back and forth a dozen times but until it is studied we will have to reply on anecdotal evidence.

From reading this threads and other discussions, it does appear that complexation increases bioavailability slightly but it is not clear how much by. It doesn't seem to me to be more than about 20%

 

[slo mo]

I would love to see some sources for that data. This debate has been back and forth a dozen times but until it is studied we will have to reply on anecdotal evidence.

From reading this threads and other discussions, it does appear that complexation increases bioavailability slightly but it is not clear how much by. It doesn't seem to me to be more than about 20%

Has anyone (anywhere) verified for sure the difference with buccal ROA with complexed vs non complexed HCL NBOMe blotters?

 

[zn13bt]

Complexation absolutely increases absorption. The problem with non complexed 25i is that its solubility in water is so low (<10% ) that you literally cannot get high off of it if you try to make a blotter because you'll have 100ug... AND the absorption sucks... so freebase can really only be smoked or snorted.

If you use a chemical to turn your 25i into the HCL salt, both solubility and absorption go up to around 50-60%. This is still non complexed.

You're confused, because here we recommend ~500ug complexed for a first time, but for the HCL this is going to be about double that dose to get the same effects.

Complexing with HBPCD is like putting a condom over the molecule to get it across our skin membranes. It increases absorption to almost 90-100%.

Sorry, but you sound like the one who's confused. You're repeating the words and figures of someone who doesn't even post around here any longer.

Personally I would recommend 500ug of the HCl on blotter for a first-timer. You could maybe go up to 800ug for someone who has a lot of experience with other psychedelics and knows how to handle themselves if a trip turns bad. I would definitely NOT recommend taking 1mg+ for a first experience for anyone, and this is even if it's uncomplexed HCl and even if it's on blotter.

This is based on my own personal experience over the past nine months (19 trips and counting as of this afternoon, all with dosages between 0.5-1.3mg) as well as the dozens of other reports I've read that have been posted to these threads. What are you basing your statements on?

Most blotter is going to be complexed anyways... It's not economical at all to blotter straight HCL salt. You lose half the product you're selling!

We can absolutely give a one size fits all first time dosage based on all of these threads...

Encourage people to find the optimal dose using titration? Are you kidding me? I don't care what you think is "safe," that's not how human beings operate. Most of the time this drug is found on blotters if you're getting it from any old street dealer. How is a laymen going to titrate that? Let's be realistic about this.

Well, that's exactly the problem with blotters, they come in units that can't be precisely divided. They should be laid about 400ug per blotter IMO (not to mention, clearly labelled with the correct dosage and material, but I guess that's too much to ask...). Anyone who's laying a milligram or more per dose and distributing that is risking the sanity or even the lives of their own customers.