The Big and Dandy NBOMe-2C-C (25C-NBOMe) Thread

[invert]

Water is the solvent I used to IM it. Be honest, did you go and snort alcohol?

I've not yet taken NBOMe-2C-C... I was waiting to get a reply about whether alcohol is okay to snort or not (in the relevant quantities) and whether snorting a solution's a good idea at all (i.e. whether it'd tend to slip out of the sinus cavities and thus be wasted). Thanks for your reply! So would you advise against snorting alcohol? I haven't the faintest clue whether that'd be a bad idea.

Re: solution... I was under the impression NBOMe-2C-C isn't very soluble in water, but I guess it is if you used it thus.

I suspect I'll go for sublingual/buccal administration for now, since it seems it isn't too much less potent than insufflation.

 

[psood0nym]

So would you advise against snorting alcohol? I haven't the faintest clue whether that'd be a bad idea.

I advise you to take a shot of vodka using a neti pot first to see if it's a good idea.

 

[reformer]

Follow Up

In what order did you take the 25C and 4-AcO-DMT?

Basically at the same time, although the ROAs differed. Subject took the gelcap of 4-AcO-DMT immediately prior to to tucking the blotts into buccal compartments (did the 4-AcO-DMT first so he didn't have to drink and swallow past the hole-punch blotts). The gelcap was taken with ~8-10 oz water and both were after haven eaten a medium meal 3.5 hrs previously.

You raise a great point about rapid tolerance though, I hadn't considered that. Very interesting... Curious if sinking 4-AcO-DMT experiences can be "rescued" with small amounts of 25C-NBOMe.

I wonder if there is any information we can glean in that regard from the success that was witnessed by our subject in redosing 25C-NBOMe to overtake the 4-Aco-DMT? Its highly speculative, but there could have been some displacement occurring, as the set and experience rapidly changed toward uplifting with additional 25C-NBOMe.

That chart you posted is nicely informative! I am so curious as to whether cross-mixing extremes will muddy the waters or will provide an intense contrast.

Final note: Subject slept for ~7.5 hrs afterward, took 200 mg 5HTP and 500 mg L-phenylalanine nutritional supplements upon arising on an empty stomach. In retrospect, subject will not do this again. He was in a mellow mild mood and these nutritional supplements seemed to force a hurried attitude onto his morning (prolly mostly the L-Phe). A medium sized breakfast and a cup of coffee or tea would have been a better idea.

 

[any major dude]

The psychedelics on the far right side of this graphic (thanks Dondante) might make interesting combos with 25C due to their 5HT1a affinity, though:

hmmm.... i may have to smoke a bit of DPT on my next venture with this one...

 

[Solipsis]

I promised some quotes about 2C-N for Erny, it's from our own B&D thread. I mentioned it because 25N-NBOMe might have similarities.

2C-N has just become available to me, but im not sure whether or not I should get it.

The only thing at this point that's really turning me away from it is all the horrible things ive been hearing/reading about physical problems with it. Intense gastrointestinal problems, massive diaharia, vomiting. Doesnt sound so fun...although the experience sounds incredible.

Thizz, that was one report by MGS.

Most 2c's cause GI problems for alot of people and none for others.
If you have the opportunity to try it, id go for it.

Not only that report, but ive heard it from the one person I know who's tried it. She said it made her feel as if she'd drank a gallon of milk (she's lactose).

I guess that's not a lot of people, but it's a lot to me when considering nasty GI problems. Not exactly my favorite kind of problems

Ill have to think long and hard about this. It seems like something thats a bit too good to pass it up, but idk....

I wish there was a bit more info out there for me.

OK, so I may have exaggerated how wide-spread reports about crazy body loads on 2C-N would be but then again there aren't many reports in general to begin with...

This talk about adrenergic activity might be quite nasty combined with other body load effects, that's worrying as well.

About the drugs in the 5-HT2A/1A graph on the right: I would be careful about combining them with NBOMe's, again regarding this adrenergic activity. (5-MeO-)DMT raises heartrate and bloodpressure significantly if only for a little while. But I have had bad reactions combining DMT with stimulants and would personally not take it with something with significant adrenergic activity. Well, it still seems unclear how much of that there actually is but that is why I say be extra careful until we know more.

4-AcO-DMT with a methylone comedown has launched me into a panic attack and I tend to get weird breathing troubles with DMT + several different stimulant combinations.

All the drugs here displayed on the right might produce similar effects in combo.

 

[reformer]

NBOMe exhibit quite poor efficacies

NBOMe are very high-efficacy agonists.

Hmmm.. I am not drawing the same conclusions from Heim's dissertation. in fact, the NBOMe efficacy seems distressingly low, i.e. borderline antagonist.

Viewed in another light though, perhaps it's only the terrible efficacy that prevents the NBOMe-2C-X series from possessing absolutely unusable dose/response curves; given the incredibly tight binding they exhibit.

Take a peek at the data here:

http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/receive/FUDISS_thesis_000000001221

Click on the pdf link titled:

3_RalfHeimPharmakologischerteil.pdf

Go to tables 3:11, 3:12 and 3:14, 3:15.

The highest efficacy agonists are actually unmodified DOI and 2C-B. All the 2C-X and FLY series of NBOMe exhibit efficacies of ~20-40%, quite poor.

So... either the binding makes up for the crippled efficacy, or the assays Heim used do not tell the whole story in terms of in vivo efficacy.

 

[skillet]

or the assays Heim used do not tell the whole story in terms of in vivo efficacy.

This. Heim's assays measures intrinsic activity in causing contraction of rat tail arteries. Nichols gives much higher values, around 80%, for PI hydrolysis in HEK cells expressing the human 2A receptor, which is probably a better assay.

 

[reformer]

This. Heim's assays measures intrinsic activity in causing contraction of rat tail arteries. Nichols gives much higher values, around 80%, for PI hydrolysis in HEK cells expressing the human 2A receptor, which is probably a better assay.

Thanks for that info, I was able to find a link to Braden's Dissertation which included the data you referenced... For example Table 4:3, reproduced here (see Below). Great stuff here!

However I don't really agree with you about the HEK cell/ectopic expression model being "better" than the rat tail artery contraction... although I guess I don't understand what you mean by "better". Because actually, the artery contraction is much more relevant to in vivo situation of serotonin response and 5HT2a activation, as the full complement of molecular interactions is available. In the HEK model, those poor lil' 5HT2a receptors are being artificially introduced and don't necessarily have their required complement of partners.

I see from the dissertation that was used to originally set up the model, that they (Nichols) has a lot invested in it:

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/dissertations/AAI3263617/

But I think caution is in order, as the model that gives the highest efficacy isn't necessarily the best model... it might be the least accurate but the most precise.

Could it be just that Nichols work would be less well received and less impactful if his novel chemical inventions weren't very efficacious? Usually model selection by a scientists "just happens" to be the one which best presents their findings.

Sorry for the cynicism, but scientists are a funny, egotistical lot that have a hard time setting up experiments that really and truly attempt to destroy their hypothesis... they usually set up experiments that support them.

 

[skillet]

It's good to be a bit cautious. I meant better in that Nichols assay uses the human form of the receptor, in human cells, albeit embryonic kidney cells... I was looking at this paper for the data, btw. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17000863

You may be right about the artery contraction assay measuring a broader range of pathways than Nichols PI specific assay though. I don't know what triggers the contraction, but I guess it's due to increases in i[Ca2+], which is mostly, but not entirely, PI mediated.

I think the relative values for different compounds in the same assay do give useful information, but it's obviously not possible to compare different compounds by different assays.

And I think the main motivation for Nichols choice of assay was convenience, I can't really imagine that they tried a few methods and picked the one that gave the highest values.

but scientists are a funny, egotistical lot that have a hard time setting up experiments that really and truly attempt to destroy their hypothesis... they usually set up experiments that support them.

A lot of the time this is probably due to the need to publish successful results and acquire funding, I don't much like it either.

 

[reformer]

Oh yes, great point... I had overlooked the fact that the cell expression system was using the human receptor while the rat artery obviously contains only the rat receptor. Thanks for cluing me in. Obviously there can be no equivalent arterial assay in humans, so I guess we are stuck considering the data from both systems.

I agree that the best way to look at the data from these systems is via internal comparison and not by trying to say that one absolutely mimics our psychedelic experience better. So this gives us relative efficacies across a series of NBOMe, but as you noted, does little to tell us the magnitude of absolute efficacy.

Rereading my earlier post, I realize it comes across as a bit too cynical; I don't mean to imply any unethical or disingenuous manipulation on the part of the scientists using these models, as skillet pointed out they might be considered victims of their field and its mechanisms of funding/publication.

 

[Ralf_4]

any more trip reports on the 25c? recently had a 1mg trip and it blew me out of the water, seems as though theres a lot of visuals a lot of euphoria and possibly one of the best experiences ive ever had (not including +4s mind) anyone else feel this could be a major psych in the making?

 

[psood0nym]

^I'd say it has a lot of potential -- very few unwanted side-effects, shorter than LSD but not too short, extremely visual, and pretty easy to handle: sounds like a popular one to me. The biggest issue is that it's not active if you swallow it. If it was ever sold widely on the street I see a lot of people simply swallowing it out of ignorance and assuming it's crap. It also pisses me off how much vendors are ripping us off with the NBOMe's, considering that something like 25C is around an order of magnitude less cost per dose to manufacture than 2C-C. Hopefully as soon as they're is some more competition costs will come down due to how easy it is to lower prices while still retaining high profitability compared to other RCs.

I ended up doing 25C yesterday. I did ~1 mg IM all at once with no tolerance. It definitely hit harder than when I did 1.5 mg over a few hours (presumably due to that rapid tolerance), but was still entirely manageable (low plus 3). I got "first alerts" within 5 minutes. I can report now that I was essentially plateaued within a half hr using this ROA. IM is probably the best method for those wanting to find their dose with this chem because it hits you quickly enough that you can still use a booster dose before tolerance sets in too much.

 

[Solipsis]

What about a dose of around 250-500 micrograms that is taken this way? (Obviously not as an initial try, there would be testing for idiosyncratic reactions):

Dissolve a known amount of 25C in a measured volume of vodka (does IPA work? would it be recommended the way I propose) and wetting a known amount of mannitol with this solution so that the mannitol will either dissolve or at least be completely submerged and swirled for homogeneity. Then let it dry so that the 250-500 ug of 25C are now in 50-100 mg powder that is insufflated.

Any ideas about that? Also about tolerance? I assume this is a superior way compared to sublingual tincture since the absorbed amount is more constant as opposed to swallowed saliva. Of course by insufflation it seems best not to do so much at once that there is a drip for the same reason.

 

[amanitadine]

^I'd say it has a lot of potential -- very few unwanted side-effects, shorter than LSD but not too short, extremely visual, and pretty easy to handle: sounds like a popular one to me. The biggest issue is that it's not active if you swallow it. If it was ever sold widely on the street I see a lot of people simply swallowing it out of ignorance and assuming it's crap. It also pisses me off how much vendors are ripping us off with the NBOMe's, considering that something like 25C is around an order of magnitude less cost per dose to manufacture than 2C-C. Hopefully as soon as they're is some more competition costs will come down due to how easy it is to lower prices while still retaining high profitability compared to other RCs.

I ended up doing 25C yesterday. I did ~1 mg IM all at once with no tolerance. It definitely hit harder than when I did 1.5 mg over a few hours (presumably due to that rapid tolerance), but was still entirely manageable (low plus 3). I got "first alerts" within 5 minutes. I can report now that I was essentially plateaued within a half hr using this ROA. IM is probably the best method for those wanting to find their dose with this chem because it hits you quickly enough that you can still use a booster dose before tolerance sets in too much.

Interesting, this almost raises more questions than it answers. I know people vary wildly in their responses to these compounds, but this is a bit much. I assumed with your last tests that 1.5mg was as a result of the instant tolerance, in that you titrated up from 50mcg. But here you report 1mg I.M. (which I would have assumed would have been a much more surefire, predictable ROA) taking you to a low plus three. MattPsy reports a solid plus 3 with 1-200mcg smoked, Atara got to a very intense place with 550mcg intranasal, and sublingual dosages are all over the place. I am wondering if due to the lipophilicity of the molecules a lot of it is getting caught up in muscular fat with I.M. administration? I wonder if subcutaneous administration would be more effective? Or rectal for that matter. Hmmm. I've only come across a few poorly translated hyperlab reports of intravenous administration, but 1-200mcgs seems to be a rolling plus 3. More information needed!

I am eager for more reports to come filtering in.....especially in regards to alternate ROAs.

Cheers

 

[psood0nym]

Solipsis: I guess that would work. If you need to liquid measure I'd just keep it in a syringe (inside a toothbrush holder or something to make sure it doesn't squirt out accidentally). I'm sure such a small amount would would dissolve in as little as 10 insulin units. Ten insulin units of water will evaporate pretty fast; then you just scrape it up and snort it (or just cut off the tip of a new syringe and squirt 10 units into it, then squirt the 10 units into your nose -- such a small amount should stay in there w/o dripping).

Regarding tolerance: conservatively, in my experience I'd say that substantial tolerance develops within an hour, making any redosing substantially less effective after that point, though it certainly possible substantial tolerance develops even faster.

amanitadine: Yes, the 1.5 mg dose was cumulative over time.

He's going to make a proper post eventually, but I will report that a highly experienced friend of mine has told me he used 25C intravenously at ~1 mg and had a lucid plus three experience with little to no anxiety. Though this is a single experience, with some ambiguity regarding the actual dose, the fact that a higher level dose (definitely >500 ug) was not overwhelming via this route is evidence that reactions to the chemical in different people really do vary very widely, and that the differences cannot be attributed to absorption differences in individual's membranes, the drug getting caught up in muscle fat when IMd, etc. 25C is a weird one in this regard. I have no idea how to explain it unless my chem is cut (but I have no reason to assume it is since most of us are probably getting it from the same place and Erny has already reported substantial variation in dose between individuals). Be sure to start low. There's no way to know which group you fall into beforehand (for instance, I'm within the normal dosage range with phenethylamines and tryptamines, but I'm apparently a hard head when it comes to 25C).

 

[reformer]

Liquid Insufflation- A must try.

ROA, Nano-trip report:

psood0nym has it dead on with the liquid insufflation. It is amazingly effective. Anyone researchng this compound would be really missing out if they didn't try the liquid route.

The 25C-NBOMe*HCl salt is sufficiently soluble in water that you can dissolve it in that without using any alcohol at all, which makes it easy to simply insufflate the small volume of water/NBOMe directly rather than drying and trying to hope micrograms of powder make it through the insufflation journey.

Someone convinced me to try a liquid insufflation method and it was so incredibly potent and effective that I would highly recommend it.

Also recommended to explore potency enhancement with this ROA before going for high doses. Subsequent trial with liquid insufflation shows thresholds at 5-10 ug, and full ++ at 100 ug.

With 1.4 mg liquid insufflation:

Recently dissolved 25C-NBOMe in water to 7 mg/ml and then removed 2 X 0.1 ml volumes and insufflated these volumes in immediate succession. This delivered (0.2 ml) x (7 mg/ml) = 1.4 mg 25C-NBOMe. This delivered too much (for the potency of this ROA). Previous trials at 1 mg buccal/sublingual didn't prepare this psychonaut for the journey which awaited.

It was overwhelming. Insane... Was not prepared. Effects were *on* hard by 5 minutes, +++ by 10 minutes, peaked by 1 hour at the most, had an approximately 5 hour plateau and ~3 hour comedown. At the height of effects, was completely incapacitated for ~2-3 hours. Had never felt a come-up this rapid, but that was likely due mostly to the large dose.

Other than a disturbing manifestation of high body temp, and some initial hypertension (measured by BP/HR monitor; perhaps both perhaps made worse by the shockingly rapid and unexpected come-up), the trip was surprisingly gentle and friendly. Especially considering that the dose was 50% greater than tried before, and the liquid insufflation ROA is easily 3 times more potent than buccal/sublingual blots... so the effective dose was ~3 times greater than any that had been tried before.

Had body tremors, time-shifts, trails, and intense, Tron-hued visuals. Very euphoric, with a thrumming body-load. Most of the time was spent spinning away inside, in an introspective journey that seemed to be cued and guided by external lights and movement as I watched out a window. In all though, most of that journey was indescribable due to the dose. Seemed to be very clean and electric, but not too stimulatory, despite the negative heat and hypertensive effects. Movies seemed to have great importance attached to their message, but not as deep of secret messages as Lucy might make apparent. The comedown was gentle, helped along by some mixed JWHs, and food was possible by t = +7 (in small amounts).

If the bodyheat and hypertension turn out to be spurious and nothing to worry about, then the liquid insufflation ROA with ~500-800 ug (5-8 ug/kg) will probably be deemed optimal for a general strong +++, depending on physical and psychological tolerance to the PEAs.

 

[Lombergerh]

I'm curious why we don't see some other compounds from this class at the market.
Simply because NBOME's the most potent (than lower Ki, then substance more potent, isn't it?) or something else?

And why there are NBOME's but no FLY's?
I think many peoples will like to research something like Chloro-Dragonfly or 2C-D-Fly.

Sorry for offtop.

 

[FlippingTop]

Free samples of 25C-NBOMe are being given out from my current RC vendor. I will get mine soon, but I am not quite sure when I will be brave enough to try it. Does it fully dissolve in anything? My scales are 0.01 at the moment, and that just is not good enough...

 

[abrad84]

I just dissolved a sample in water. It seemed to dissolve easily with a little heat leaving me with a 2mg/ml concentration.

 

[invert]

I just dissolved a sample in water. It seemed to dissolve easily with a little heat leaving me with a 2mg/ml concentration.

Roughly what temperature of water was needed to dissolve it? And does anyone know how high a temperature would be too much, i.e. would risk destroying the chemical? Thanks.