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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022

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When I feel uncomfortable, I tell myself something similar to what you're saying. Basically, "Yeah, I feel uncomfortable, shitty, irritable, but this is jackshit compared to being dopesick."
Saying that to myself makes me feel somewhat better.

On the positive end, my normal sex drive level has returned. I really had no idea how numbed out and off center I've been while on those drugs.
When I'm good, aren't experiencing any side-effects, I feel like I can feel again. So, that's been good.

Anyhow, Alright. Good luck with pondering things. Thanks for the kind words. Let us know what's up.
 
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hey i dont mean to be a jerk, but what's your question?

we can all help better if there is a specific question ya
 
So, I kind of kicked a habit recently. I was just about over the sickness when I used last monday, then I used Wed and Thurs. But I don't feel sick now, I don't think. Does this mean I'm in the clear, or I might still wake up sick tomorrow?

If we are talking opiates u need to kick longer u will probably wake up sick
 
So, I kind of kicked a habit recently. I was just about over the sickness when I used last monday, then I used Wed and Thurs. But I don't feel sick now, I don't think. Does this mean I'm in the clear, or I might still wake up sick tomorrow?

If you didn't wait until you were fully detoxed, it could very well have set you back a bit.
 
No good suboxone doctor should force his/her patient to come off/taper if they're not ready.. that's just begging for relapse.
 
It's way easier to just use an oral syringe to plug it.. there's no point in going through all the trouble of using capsules and shit. Just break down the strip in water, draw it into a syringe, and squirt it up there..

I did same dose your way there was a little capsule residue on syringe 5 hours later I dont think the capsule was pushed in far enough and double dosed my breathing is getting labored and I am keeping eye on it 12mgs plugged is alot for me at once but its nice to feel the warm blanket again. I think people need to make sure they get it in the anal cavity b4 they do another dose wish I had syringe the first time! Dont put capsules in your butt!! Never did get answer on lyrica suboxone interaction.Prescribing info very vague just says may increase drowzy, sleepiness.and shit like that.
 
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Sorry i are spectre, I was a bit vague regarding a specific question and tbh
I was more looking for feedback and opinions on a few things I mentioned, like:
-From 16mg to 4mg virtually no side effects, once I hit 3mg, it was like I left rehab last week. Cravings, some sleeplessness which lead to fatigue. Why 3mg? the 16-12 jump was a considerably larger decrease.
-Lengths of sub treatment. I'm at @ the 3 year mark and my doc seems intent on a steady decrease. Almost to the point that I started wondering if he's doing this to all his sub patients and trying to move out of that field...
-Taper schedule -Seems I'm on about a one year taper, which is not unreasonable, but a month can go by quick.

-Lastly, the counselor and Dr relationship. -Counselor and I have a great relationship, possibly the person I trust most in terms of my addiction. He and I discussed my shortage (8 stips total) and helped do the math in order to have my prescription to be, make up for the lapse and get me back on track. The Dr. ignored us both. Keep in mind I spend an hour with counselor (quite often 2 or more if we lose track of time and his schedule is open) and 3 mins with Dr. each month. So, again, I was getting the feeling the Dr. had some sort of agenda and keeping patients on a sub treatment for "XXX" amount of time is frowned upon by "insert the powers that be here".
-or is an in office counselor just another means to make a buck off a junkie?

I know, alot of questions some more specific than others. and tbh I've never tapered off of anything, my ride always stopped where the handcuffs started. Having my taper in someone elses hands is unnerving but possibly a goodthing.
 
^I personally think the doctor is just a douche! Did you point blank tell him how you feel? that you're getting sick and you wanna slow it down? If so, why would he insist on decreasing your dose faster than you're comfortable with?

Normally, I'd take the BL party line and say, "He's a doctor and he must know better than us amateurs on BL! Listen to your doctor! Heidi Ho!"....but I've had about 5 different Suboxone doctors and they all did completely different shit than the next one....I pretty much feel that, most doctors who prescribe suboxone pretty much have absolutely no clue about the effective dosage and how to effectively taper people!!

My personal opinion....going from 4 to 3, after a day or so, you shouldn't really be feeling shit for WD because 3 mg of Suboxone is still a shit-ton of buprenorphine!....but. I'm not you, so IDK!....It's a strange drug that affects everyone differently! If you wanna go slower, you should! What's the point of risking a relapse because your douche-bag doctor wants you to come off of it so quickly?!

Although, there are a lot of people who are complete babies about detoxing off everything! They think they're getting sick no matter what detox regimen they use! The reality is, detoxing sucks!

Maybe you're doctor thinks you're mind-fucking yourself and that you'll never get off this shit without a push, IDK! Either way, you should be able to go at your own pace, but in the world of buprenorphine, 3mgs should realistically be a breeze to taper down to! Starting someone at 16mg is a fucking joke in the first place IMO, but I know that's "what works", supposedly....
 
^I personally think the doctor is just a douche! Did you point blank tell him how you feel? that you're getting sick and you wanna slow it down? If so, why would he insist on decreasing your dose faster than you're comfortable with?
Great question, I straight up told him, (after speaking with the counselor),"I've been having a hard time this month...", he said, "Close your eyes, your on a road, you see a flower, what color is it?". Which is his version of some terribly misplaced attempt at helping me with some psycho-analysis-mumbo jumbo.

^
My personal opinion....going from 4 to 3, after a day or so, you shouldn't really be feeling shit for WD because 3 mg of Suboxone is still a shit-ton of buprenorphine!....but. I'm not you, so IDK!....It's a strange drug that affects everyone differently! If you wanna go slower, you should! What's the point of risking a relapse because your douche-bag doctor wants you to come off of it so quickly?!
I'm not entirely sure it's withdrawal, just alot of worrying, constant grogginess, maybe even some depression, which I don't think I've ever experienced to this level.

^
Although, there are a lot of people who are complete babies about detoxing off everything! They think they're getting sick no matter what detox regimen they use! The reality is, detoxing sucks!
I'm one of them! Huge baby, I usually try not to let it show, but I become an a-hole and put myself through unneeded stress.


^
Maybe you're doctor thinks you're mind-fucking yourself and that you'll never get off this shit without a push, IDK! Either way, you should be able to go at your own pace, but in the world of buprenorphine, 3mgs should realistically be a breeze to taper down to! Starting someone at 16mg is a fucking joke in the first place IMO, but I know that's "what works", supposedly....

I probably am, and I probably would never lower a dose on my own.

I think part of the problem is,
I started going to this Dr./Counselor when I was about 3 months clean. I had relapsed for about 2 weeks, after having just over a year completely clean. Gave it up without a second thought.
During this particular relapse I"m still not entirely sure what happened, but I was using extremely small amounts of dope, (maybe a half a dime bag) often from different distributors, and falling out
almost every time. Sometimes a ambo would wake me up, sometimes I'd come to and gather my senses and repeat the process.
My body couldn't take it anymore, these od's weren't anything new, just much more frequent than in the past.
I managed to get cleaned up on my own.
3 months or so into this clean cycle, I started having a very hard time, so I started looking into subs again. I'd been on them in the past
through other dr.'s but had never taken it seriously and sold most of them. I knew I couldn't hold out much longer though.

So, point is I guess, this Dr. has never seen me at my worst. He's only seen my "good side". Thanfully I haven't so much as sold a pill, or ate a benzo in the last 3 years, other than my subs.
He sees a chart with some substantial goals met in these three years, a patient who complies with everything and greets them with a smile and a stack of $, without fail.
I think he's underestimating my addiction and just how quickly things can go south. I do not have another run left in me, the last one was proof enough for me.
 
"Close your eyes, your on a road, you see a flower, what color is it?". Which is his version of some terribly misplaced attempt at helping me with some psycho-analysis-mumbo jumbo.

If I asked my doctor a honest and concerning question such as yours and that was his response, I'd probably dump his dumb ass on the spot. I know that might not be an option and all, but what the fuck is that?
 
There have been a considerable amount of responses to this thread but I'm still going to move it into the Suboxone/Buprenorphine Megathread, basically because there hasn't been a lot of action there yet people are continuing to make threads that could/should be posts in that all-encompassing buprenorphine megathread.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what BlueHues says, only I actually, like the OP, found the transition from 4mg to 3mg to be the first time my taper (which had begun at 8mg, which i quickly cut down to 4mg immediately and stayed on for a month) proved to be any sort of challenge for me. BUT, if you give it 10 days, I can say from experience you will feel way better on the new, lowered dosage. And as you taper further down, you'll notice that you feel more of a 'spike' in terms of effect whenever you take your suboxone (as it was at first used as an analgesic in microgram dosages anyway). In a way it can be a bit confusing if you're really trying to get off the shit (because you get rewarded for lowering your dosage by achieving more agonist effects, but at the same time, if you have been clean for a while and aren't used to that euphoria it could be disturbing).

Also, just so you have a better understanding of what you are going through:

•Buprenorphine is a potent partial agonist. It is stronger than morphine, heroin, oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, and even Fentanyl-yet because it is only a partial agonist, it can only stimulate someones opiate receptors up to a certain point/dose, and if one continues to take buprenorphine, there will be no increased opiate effects, just a build up of the drug in the users blood.

•Many Sub doctors claim that the ceiling dosage is 32mg-its not. the ceiling effect is probably around 4mg as thats the dose that most people have no problem tapering down to, but run into trouble when they try to dip below into the 3mg or 2mg range. The reasons buprenorphine is prescribed at doses above 4mg and all the way to 32mg, is because only at 8mg and up will Buprenorphine effectively block other opiates from attaching to receptors. There are also some people who just enjoy being on higher dosages because they don't have to worry about impending withdrawals if they end up missing a dose, and can often even go a few days without even feeling withdrawal at all.

Anyway, when you take the dose that fully stimulates your opiate receptors to bupes' maximum agonistic capabilities (at around 4mg), you have enough bupe built up from previous half lives that you can still administer the Suboxone once a day and feel stable (usually). However, when you take a dose thats below 4mg, you will likely begin to experience mild withdrawal symptoms as even at its peak, the buprenorphine isn't completely covering all your receptors anymore, and as the day goes on, the drug begins to disconnect itself from more and more receptors as more time goes by without any opiate use. After 24 hours, when you wake up and take the suboxone, you'll get definite relief from the deficiency that you're putting yourself through, but you wont achieve any sense of well being for the first few days. After about 3 days though, you will find that your newer dose feels stronger than the older (and higher) one. That's because your body is finally starting to eliminate the suboxone from your system at a rate that the buprenorphine cant keep up with any longer at such a dose. If you lower your dose down to a milligram or less, it really begins to feel like you're taking a full agonist (much like methadone IMO in terms of the euphoric effects, which are present but far from mind blowing), and it also begins to wear off increasingly quicker, which is why cutting your daily dose of suboxone in half and taking it in the morning and the evening is the best thing you can do to strategize against the apathy, fatigue, anxiety and restlessness that are common unpleasant side effects that begin to kick in as your morning dosage wears off.
 
I'm down to 1 mg a day right now. I am definitely experiencing the full agonist effects of it at this dose but it's really nothing special....It's making me wanna go to sleep a few hours after I take it, but 12 hours after taking it I just feel like taking more. I'm kind of scared to go below 1 mg, but I'm gonna have to because I only have 3 two mg strips left and two 8 mg pills.....last time I jumped off at 2mg because that was the detox protocol of the rehab I was in....that sucked!

I'm wondering if I should IV small crumbs off the tablets to try to stretch it, or if I should just cut down to .5 mgs sublingual tomorrow? Because I don't have enough to keep dosing 1 mg at at time, which is kind of sad because I had WAY more than enough of the shit stockpiled for years when I didn't need it, but now that I could use just another 16mg even, I'm running really low!

any thoughts on whether or not IV is a good idea? I was supposed to get some xanax today, but I can't get in touch with the guy....I'm thinking of trying to get more Subs, but I really wanna just be done with them, I've been on subs for 2 1/2 months to get off a 1 1/2 month dope relapse....I wonder if it will be much better at the end than it was jumping off at 2 mg? God I hope so! Not that I couldn't get through it, but I'm just not up for it again....oh man...
 
There have been a considerable amount of responses to this thread but I'm still going to move it into the Suboxone/Buprenorphine Megathread, basically because there hasn't been a lot of action there yet people are continuing to make threads that could/should be posts in that all-encompassing buprenorphine megathread.

Anyway, I agree with a lot of what BlueHues says, only I actually, like the OP, found the transition from 4mg to 3mg to be the first time my taper (which had begun at 8mg, which i quickly cut down to 4mg immediately and stayed on for a month) proved to be any sort of challenge for me. BUT, if you give it 10 days, I can say from experience you will feel way better on the new, lowered dosage. And as you taper further down, you'll notice that you feel more of a 'spike' in terms of effect whenever you take your suboxone (as it was at first used as an analgesic in microgram dosages anyway). In a way it can be a bit confusing if you're really trying to get off the shit (because you get rewarded for lowering your dosage by achieving more agonist effects, but at the same time, if you have been clean for a while and aren't used to that euphoria it could be disturbing).

Also, just so you have a better understanding of what you are going through:

•Buprenorphine is a potent partial agonist. It is stronger than morphine, heroin, oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, and even Fentanyl-yet because it is only a partial agonist, it can only stimulate someones opiate receptors up to a certain point/dose, and if one continues to take buprenorphine, there will be no increased opiate effects, just a build up of the drug in the users blood.

•Many Sub doctors claim that the ceiling dosage is 32mg-its not. the ceiling effect is probably around 4mg as thats the dose that most people have no problem tapering down to, but run into trouble when they try to dip below into the 3mg or 2mg range. The reasons buprenorphine is prescribed at doses above 4mg and all the way to 32mg, is because only at 8mg and up will Buprenorphine effectively block other opiates from attaching to receptors. There are also some people who just enjoy being on higher dosages because they don't have to worry about impending withdrawals if they end up missing a dose, and can often even go a few days without even feeling withdrawal at all.

Anyway, when you take the dose that fully stimulates your opiate receptors to bupes' maximum agonistic capabilities (at around 4mg), you have enough bupe built up from previous half lives that you can still administer the Suboxone once a day and feel stable (usually). However, when you take a dose thats below 4mg, you will likely begin to experience mild withdrawal symptoms as even at its peak, the buprenorphine isn't completely covering all your receptors anymore, and as the day goes on, the drug begins to disconnect itself from more and more receptors as more time goes by without any opiate use. After 24 hours, when you wake up and take the suboxone, you'll get definite relief from the deficiency that you're putting yourself through, but you wont achieve any sense of well being for the first few days. After about 3 days though, you will find that your newer dose feels stronger than the older (and higher) one. That's because your body is finally starting to eliminate the suboxone from your system at a rate that the buprenorphine cant keep up with any longer at such a dose. If you lower your dose down to a milligram or less, it really begins to feel like you're taking a full agonist (much like methadone IMO in terms of the euphoric effects, which are present but far from mind blowing), and it also begins to wear off increasingly quicker, which is why cutting your daily dose of suboxone in half and taking it in the morning and the evening is the best thing you can do to strategize against the apathy, fatigue, anxiety and restlessness that are common unpleasant side effects that begin to kick in as your morning dosage wears off.


It's all starting to make alot more sense now.
So, in reality I have nothing to worry about, and a lower dosage can have some upside to it.
A few days in now of completely cutting back to 3mg, (I did for a few days, went back up to four, quickly realized the eo month was coming and back to 3 I went) and did feel a bit better today,
mowed the grass, got some much needed work caught up and dosing didn't envoke a complete sleepiness state, but an hour or so of chill time.
Some anxiety, but not like it was and actually feel a bit better about things.

I also gave the whole bit some thought today and I'm a big believer in the old adage, "if it aint broke, don't fix it".
I view varying measures I take to stay "clean" as somewhat of a "distancer" between myself and dope.
Anything that disrupts these measures, I take seriously and possibly to literal.
I felt as if the Dr. was trying to keep shaving away at the dose, but at the same time leaving me with one less wall of defense.
Perhaps I'm relying on subs to keep clean and that isn't the smartest thing in the world but, it works for me now and I ain't trying to fix it.

The comments/replies have been truly helpful, thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply.
 
I have a question regarding the last taper steps:

I took my last 0,4mg last saturday, and now after 2 days without Opiates I insufflated another 0,4mg. My doc told me that it could be helpful to make the intervalls inbetween longer and maybe take 0,2mg after another 2 days and then jump off.

What do you guys think about this approach?
Because regardless of these small doses I suffer from severe insomnia. I dont want to rely on Benzos (which I took ~2-3 times a week this month) why I got some Mirtazapin (last night even 600mg Gabapentin over the day, 0,5l beer, THC and low dose Promethazin did nothing and I was completely awake the whole time...).

Any input is appreciated, thx.
 
It is very hard to "jump off" at that dose and I would not doing so because you are still having withdrawl symptoms. I personaly would extend the taper until you stop having symptoms. I do agree with you not wanting to use benzos, but as long as you dont abuse them they can help with relieve some of the symptoms. Try breaking the doses down 25% every few days and see if that helps with the withdrawl. If you can do this over a month or so. Remember to be careful with the benzos only take them when u really need to. Good luck!
 
Thx for the reply, I appreciate it. Haven't been on big opioid doses. 1mg/day max with a few breaks and switches so I didn't bother with tapering.

3rd day so far. Used Tetrazepam and Gabapentin. Feeling ok now but I know the next nights will be shitty, sweating through 2 shirts.
And I think without any supporting medication it will get bad. Only have 1mg Etizolam and a few Gabapentins left so I am really not looking forward to the PAWS.
But at least the hardest days will be this weekend where I have nothing to do.

This time for real.
 
I started shooting up 1mg two times a day.... And get some euphoria esp at night after I had some beers then dose.. But I fear 2mgs iv is to much.... Plus I can 't shit at all and I hate taking exlax...

I'll probably just go back to snorting, don't like covering my arms...., it's hard in summer lol Btw I'm on subutex..
 
I started shooting up 1mg two times a day.... And get some euphoria esp at night after I had some beers then dose.. But I fear 2mgs iv is to much.... Plus I can 't shit at all and I hate taking exlax...

I'll probably just go back to snorting, don't like covering my arms...., it's hard in summer lol Btw I'm on subutex..

IV'ing 2mg's is way too much. Most IV bupe doses are in the sub-milligram range.
 
Thx for the reply, I appreciate it. Haven't been on big opioid doses. 1mg/day max with a few breaks and switches so I didn't bother with tapering.

3rd day so far. Used Tetrazepam and Gabapentin. Feeling ok now but I know the next nights will be shitty, sweating through 2 shirts.
And I think without any supporting medication it will get bad. Only have 1mg Etizolam and a few Gabapentins left so I am really not looking forward to the PAWS.
But at least the hardest days will be this weekend where I have nothing to do.

This time for real.

I have been in your spot before and I would never start a taper if i am not comfortable in the first place. From what you are telling me I think you are setting yourself up for relapse!!
 
I hope your concern is not justified. So far day 4 and it got a little better but I'll take some Promethazine this night.
On Monday I have my first therapy appointment so further measures are initiated.
My habit was never that bad and until recently I had one day breaks in between irregularly.
This time I mean it and I have a good motivation. Football season is over (would fit better to Xanax I guess).
 
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