Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[Basic Base]

New Suboxone Film Formulation

http://www.rb.com/FDA-Approval-for-Suboxone-Sublingual-FilmC-III
They say that they should be available by October. From what it sounds like...they are still injectable. We'll see.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

We can discuss this in the Suboxone/buprenorphine mega thread.

 

[Shadow997]

Hello to everyone! This is my very first post and I am soo glad that I found this site...Here is a little info on me and what I am going through... I suffer with horrible migraine headaches. A few years ago, my PCP started me on Vicodin for the pain. Well, most know how the story goes from there...i started with 5mg, then my body became tolerant and soon it was 10...20...40...etc. Then my script started running out way before refill time so, I started buying them. Then it was on to Percocets and Oxycontins. Whatever I could find. After a while, I wasn't even taking them to "get high". It was more to just feel normal. I didn't want to go anywhere or do anything unless I had my "medicine". I would normally do 2-3 Percocet 30mgs a day. Or 6 10mg Percs, or occasionally 1-2 Oxycontin 40mgs. This as you know gets VERY expensive. So, I began to get behind in all my bills...arguing with my fiance over money, etc. The longest I managed to go between doses was 3-4 days, and that was only because I had no money. I would ease my w/d symptoms by taking Tramadol when I could get it. For me, the worst was the restlessness. I never actually vomitted or had diarrhea. I would toss and turn and "kick the sheets" and I did get the runny nose and tearing eyes. But as I said, the restlessness was terrible. At times I felt like a quiver in my heart and almost felt like I was going to have a panic attack... I started missing work etc. I got warned for missing too much time. Well, about a week ago, I decided enough is enough. I went to see a pain management doctor and explained everything. She started me on Suboxone 8mg twice a day. The first night I took my first 8mg sublingually. Right away I felt GREAT. Then, a few hours later, I got very sick and threw up twice. The next morning I took another 8mg dose and became violently ill! I literally threw up every 10 minutes all day and evening. So, I didn't take anymore that whole night or any the next morning(which is today). I went all day today and felt okay. Around 3pm, I started having cravings. I was terrified to take any more Suboxone but figured that maybe the doctor just had my dose way too high. So, around 3:30, I took 1/4 or about 2mg. I feel okay right now. Almost "normal". I guess I am just wondering if anyone else has had this problem. Do doctors always prescribe such a high dose in the beginning? I may want to add that it was definately NOT precipitated w/d because I was completely clean for 4 whole days before I took my first dose of Suboxone. Has anyone else gotten very sick after taking their Suboxone? It's been about 2 hours since taking the 2mg and I still feel okay. What system should I follow from here? Should I do 2mg twice a day and maintain that? Also, I was wondering if anyone knew about the confidentiality of the Sub programs? Since I went to a pain management doctor and it was covered by my insurance(i only had to pay a 30.00 co-pay) is there any way my job will find out? Any help will be GREATLY appreciated!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

8mg is a bit high, 2mg is much more ideal.

I used to vomit daily from Suboxone, it's a common problem.

 

[Georgie25]

Yeah Im prescribed 24mg a day and only take around or under 2mg a day and am fine. Most doctors dont know how to dose correctly with it. Bupe is very strong so if 2mg is holding you good just keep taking that..not only will you not be throwing up but you'll also make your subs last 4x as longer.

 

[Shadow997]

Thanks for answering. After my first experience I was honestly scared to take any sub ever again...I am glad that I tried the 2mg today though because I really can NOT go back to the way things were before. I was on the verge of losing my job, my house, my car...literally everything. Right now I had to pay 100.00 for 15 subs( the other 15 is still at the pharmacy) until my insurance pre-authorizes it. The pharamacist said that my insurance will cover it more than likely after my doctor calls them, but even if they don't, I was spending between 600.00-800.00 a month on other things. So, at this rate even if i have to pay 200.00 for 30 subs, I am still coming out way ahead. And if I am only taking about 1/2 a sub total every day, 15 should last me a month and 30 should last me 2...I am going to try to take 2mgs twice a day for the next month and then cut back to 2mgs once a day for another month, and then maybe 2mgs every other day for the third month and so on... I will continue to update as I go along my "journey", because I feel like I need to talk to people who understand what I am going through....Thanks everyone!

 

[adder]

I've been observing latest posts about ultra-low (to be honest) doses working miracles. And really, even multiplying any i.v. dose by 0.3, this still amazes me as I needed 16mg s.l. to feel alright. Tapering off was just impossible (in case of methadone problems start for me when I take 5mg twice a day, with buprenorphine it started at 8mg and I've been keeping on doses very long, I always do, even now when I'm on ultra-low doses of methadone and I can't go lower). I don't believe buprenorphine just can't work for me, well, it does but at much higher doses. I still have 10mg of freebase. If I manage to zero myself with methadone, I'll make a salt of this and shoot some to see if it works at all. I've never gotten high with bupe, that's not the point but it was good holding me somehow, I just felt alright and I had a bit better mood at higher doses (well, this actually pushed me to look deeper into κ antagonists and partial δ agonists).

Also, concerning totally different thing, I'm very surprised that some have to pay for their maintenance drugs. This isn't right if you pay insurance and rarely seek any help from public service. I know my country literally rips me off here as I only go to a psychiatrist once every two months or so and the same with an endocrinologist and that's just for getting a script for medicines (I pay nothing for clonazepam but I do pay a lot for levothyroxine, w/e).

Anyway, I'd prefer to pay and be treated like a normal person at the clinic, and be given methadone normally (you've got to have one hemisphere not working to get on program here, I realized and rare exceptions prove the rule...). If I only had chance to pay for my methadone in pharmacy, I'd pay 3 times less than I do.

 

[mike_indy_317]

Alright guys im sitting here with 3 10mg methadone right next to me. I just went o to the doctor last month on the 27th so i have while until i go back. These 3 pills were given to me by my weed guy because I had more money then he had product so he said here you go now were even. For some reason i couldnt give them back or say no so i just left with them. My qeustion is can i take them right now and then go back to my regular shcedule tommorow?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I've been observing latest posts about ultra-low (to be honest) doses working miracles. And really, even multiplying any i.v. dose by 0.3, this still amazes me as I needed 16mg s.l. to feel alright. Tapering off was just impossible (in case of methadone problems start for me when I take 5mg twice a day, with buprenorphine it started at 8mg and I've been keeping on doses very long, I always do, even now when I'm on ultra-low doses of methadone and I can't go lower). I don't believe buprenorphine just can't work for me, well, it does but at much higher doses. I still have 10mg of freebase. If I manage to zero myself with methadone, I'll make a salt of this and shoot some to see if it works at all. I've never gotten high with bupe, that's not the point but it was good holding me somehow, I just felt alright and I had a bit better mood at higher doses (well, this actually pushed me to look deeper into κ antagonists and partial δ agonists).

Well to be honest, I have always been sensitive to opiates (and most other drugs, the only drug I am not "overly" sensitive to is cannabis, but that's probably due to years of smoking daily if anything). For instance, even when I was a heroin addict, I was probably using 250mg per day at the very most, more than likely I never went far above that (over the course of a day), and I was snorting it (it was good powder but it wasn't pure obviously...) - most people on Bluelight who talk about having a heroin addiction often explain how they went to using such high doses that I never got to.

Some people are less sensitive to drugs. I knew one person who needed more buprenorphine than you to stay well (they had a liver enzyme hyperactivity which rendered buprenorphine as extremely useless). Everyone's just different I guess.

Also, concerning totally different thing, I'm very surprised that some have to pay for their maintenance drugs. This isn't right if you pay insurance and rarely seek any help from public service.

Honestly, at the rate I'm going, the needles cost more than the ORT meds. How much you ask? Every shot costs < $0.01 ($0.006 to be accurate as of right now I guess) and each needle costs $0.19. Actually, that's if I get to order needles from a website and have the luxury of waiting until they are delivered. When I buy them from the pharmacy, they are closer to $0.30 - $0.39 each.

Alright guys im sitting here with 3 10mg methadone right next to me. I just went o to the doctor last month on the 27th so i have while until i go back. These 3 pills were given to me by my weed guy because I had more money then he had product so he said here you go now were even. For some reason i couldnt give them back or say no so i just left with them. My qeustion is can i take them right now and then go back to my regular shcedule tommorow?

Probably not.

Methadone takes forever to get out of your system, and buprenorphine will throw someone with methadone in their system into precipitated WD's.

Just trade the methadone back for more weed when he gets more. Problem solved!

 

[syndeusys]

Do you have a source for this information???

Im not like being rude I just wanted to read up on it myself. It also helps verify your advice.

My source is all the stock bottles at work we completely replenish our supply every week. And it is max of 2 years the 4 years was apprently just a lapse in memory. I don't have an actual article on the amount of time it takes the compound to degrade or anything.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

My source is all the stock bottles at work we completely replenish our supply every week. And it is max of 2 years the 4 years was apprently just a lapse in memory. I don't have an actual article on the amount of time it takes the compound to degrade or anything.

Not many drugs degrade over time like SSRI's would, if I had to bet on this issue, buprenorphine will outlive me. I will probably still have a stash of buprenorphine when I pass away too, lol. Hopefully my children will also be heroin addicts or the spare tablets will go to waste! (JUST KIDDING )

 

[mike_indy_317]

i took them already but i have 24 days till i go back and im pretty sure its not going to be in there for that long.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

i took them already but i have 24 days till i go back and im pretty sure its not going to be in there for that long.

Oh you're saying you have 24 days until you're going back on buprenorphine? Yeah you should be OK. I was confused by what you were saying regarding the time schedule. Or, my ADHD was getting the best of me.

 

[mike_indy_317]

I have 24 days until i go back and get my subs refilled i had taken 8mg yesterday and i took the 3 mdones today so ill probly take my subs again in a couple days.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I have 24 days until i go back and get my subs refilled i had taken 8mg yesterday and i took the 3 mdones today so ill probly take my subs again in a couple days.

Oh, ok, gotcha.

Well when you go back on Suboxone, start with a tiny amount just to make sure you aren't going to go into precipitated WD (so that if you do, it won't be like, severe or anything).

For what it's worth, did you feel the methadone?

 

[mike_indy_317]

I was sitting there hitting refresh for awhile until a realized it went to page 26 lol. I didnt feel it that much probably because ive been on subs for 8 months but i felt pretty good and felt better then if i would have taken my regular does of subs. Although thats what i got on the subs for in the first place because i liked that high to much and but im going back on subs in a few days and going to try and not slip up.

 

[adder]

Some people are less sensitive to drugs. I knew one person who needed more buprenorphine than you to stay well (they had a liver enzyme hyperactivity which rendered buprenorphine as extremely useless). Everyone's just different I guess.

Well, I just have to agree on that with you. I must say I don't seem to have some cytochrome P450 subtypes working like in most of population. I was addicted to morphine mostly before this major break (but also took many stronger opioids like oxymorphone, hydromorphone or synthetic like levorphanol and dextromoramide and had a 9-month episode with heroin) and moving on maintenance drugs (counting in bupe and methadone, it's been almost 1 year now). I remember I could hold on high doses of codeine i.m. (or if I had chance to do sth with it - dihydrocodeine or hydrocodone) and most people using m/h can do this for a day or two before they get the drug. I tried to tie it up with the question "why do I need methadone twice a day?" but anything is just a big simplification on what's actually going on (buprenorphine is supposed to be excreted as itself in 2/3, yet it's not only enzymes that play major role in any drug's pharmacokinetics).

Honestly, at the rate I'm going, the needles cost more than the ORT meds. How much you ask? Every shot costs < $0.01 ($0.006 to be accurate as of right now I guess) and each needle costs $0.19. Actually, that's if I get to order needles from a website and have the luxury of waiting until they are delivered. When I buy them from the pharmacy, they are closer to $0.30 - $0.39 each.

But you inject Suboxone. Here we (I mean country) have to import it (actually both methadone and buprenorphine/naloxone formulation although there's a Polish manufacturer that produces both sublingual tablets and injectable ampules with buprenorphine HCl). 1000ml (1mg/ml) Molteni syrup costs ~170PLN (= 55$, it may be nothing in the U.S. but it's a lot in Poland). It's available only for controlled scripts as antinociceptive. Now I mean - if program spots are overcrowded, I'm really willing to get a script and pay 170PLN for 1g of methadone - with my current tolerance it would be enough for a month for me, anyway as I've written many times I'm at loggerheads with this doctor here, the chief at hospital and clinic. Suboxone is marked LZ (closed treatment), it's not available in pharmacies. And Polish brand Bunondol comes in very small doses (0.2mg & 0.4mg tabs) but it's not widely accepted as a maintenance drug (there's only one hospital practicing giving scripts and addicts have to buy it at pharmacy.

Anyway, if you get on the program here, you don't pay anything! Health insurance covers this. I'm surprised you have to pay for it in the U.S. But maybe if it worked that way here, there would be more places for addicts to get help and such actions would push junkies to find some job to cover expenses. Instead, programs are full of junkies who sell methadone and black market grows and they keep on scoring heroin and stealing. It's more like a life-style, a solution to lack of money for drugs than maintenance program...

And concerning needles and syringes - they're widely available and they're very cheap (well, 1 needle is like 0.1PLN so just divide it by 3.09).

- - - - -

I've just found a patch with buprenorphine, actually a cut part of it. The matrix holding buprenorphine has also:
1) the side with bupe: Z-octadeca-9-en-1-yl oleinate, PVP, levulinic acid, and a heck of a glue polymer:
acrylic acid : butyl acrylate : 2-ethylhexyl acrylate : vinyl acetate at 5:15:75:5
2) the side with no bupe: just that glue

Well, I know people here shoot this but judging by ingredients, water, ethanol, citric acid, and heat (what they do...) must cause the ester to hydrolyze, PVP, levulinic acid is well soluble in both water and EtOH, and that polymer cannot be resistant to uncotrolled heat so most acrylates go into the final solution even after filtering. At the beginning the glue should be visible and some of it can be probably taken away from the solution but not everything. Well, I checked LD50's for all of these and even shooting the solution obtained from the strongest patch (75mcg/h, i.e. 40mg in total) contains very small doses of toxic substances. But i.v. acrylates? I've just remembered this was the winner of junkies who can get codeine at most a few months ago...

 

[Shadow997]

Well... I took another 2mg dose of sub this morning when I got up and I feel okay so far. No nausea yet, just a slight pressure behind my eyes like a tension headache, but I took some Ibuprofen for that. I will probably take another 2mg dose this evening and see how that goes. The good thing is, I have zero cravings and haven't even thought about a pill! I realize that this will be a long process and I am trying not to get too optimistic too soon... but so far so good. And I am okay today...I will worry about tomorrow, tomorrow...The other good thing is that with the smaller dose, I'm not getting big amounts of that "orange death liquid" left over in my mouth to swallow... And at this point, I will take any positivity that I can get!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I was sitting there hitting refresh for awhile until a realized it went to page 26 lol. I didnt feel it that much probably because ive been on subs for 8 months but i felt pretty good and felt better then if i would have taken my regular does of subs. Although thats what i got on the subs for in the first place because i liked that high to much and but im going back on subs in a few days and going to try and not slip up.

Well good for you man! If you can go back on Suboxone then this is just further proof to yourself that your recovery is going very well.

Just make sure you feel the withdrawal at full force before taking Suboxone, and if you aren't sure, but are going to take Suboxone anyways, start out with a *very* little amount to be on the safe side, and good luck! Feel free to keep us updated as life goes along for you.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

But you inject Suboxone. Here we (I mean country) have to import it (actually both methadone and buprenorphine/naloxone formulation although there's a Polish manufacturer that produces both sublingual tablets and injectable ampules with buprenorphine HCl). 1000ml (1mg/ml) Molteni syrup costs ~170PLN (= 55$, it may be nothing in the U.S. but it's a lot in Poland). It's available only for controlled scripts as antinociceptive. Now I mean - if program spots are overcrowded, I'm really willing to get a script and pay 170PLN for 1g of methadone - with my current tolerance it would be enough for a month for me, anyway as I've written many times I'm at loggerheads with this doctor here, the chief at hospital and clinic. Suboxone is marked LZ (closed treatment), it's not available in pharmacies. And Polish brand Bunondol comes in very small doses (0.2mg & 0.4mg tabs) but it's not widely accepted as a maintenance drug (there's only one hospital practicing giving scripts and addicts have to buy it at pharmacy.

Anyway, if you get on the program here, you don't pay anything! Health insurance covers this. I'm surprised you have to pay for it in the U.S. But maybe if it worked that way here, there would be more places for addicts to get help and such actions would push junkies to find some job to cover expenses. Instead, programs are full of junkies who sell methadone and black market grows and they keep on scoring heroin and stealing. It's more like a life-style, a solution to lack of money for drugs than maintenance program...

And concerning needles and syringes - they're widely available and they're very cheap (well, 1 needle is like 0.1PLN so just divide it by 3.09).

- - - - -

I've just found a patch with buprenorphine, actually a cut part of it. The matrix holding buprenorphine has also:
1) the side with bupe: Z-octadeca-9-en-1-yl oleinate, PVP, levulinic acid, and a heck of a glue polymer:
acrylic acid : butyl acrylate : 2-ethylhexyl acrylate : vinyl acetate at 5:15:75:5
2) the side with no bupe: just that glue

Well, I know people here shoot this but judging by ingredients, water, ethanol, citric acid, and heat (what they do...) must cause the ester to hydrolyze, PVP, levulinic acid is well soluble in both water and EtOH, and that polymer cannot be resistant to uncotrolled heat so most acrylates go into the final solution even after filtering. At the beginning the glue should be visible and some of it can be probably taken away from the solution but not everything. Well, I checked LD50's for all of these and even shooting the solution obtained from the strongest patch (75mcg/h, i.e. 40mg in total) contains very small doses of toxic substances. But i.v. acrylates? I've just remembered this was the winner of junkies who can get codeine at most a few months ago...

Whoa, syringes are cheap in Poland!!! That's like 10x less expensive! I wonder why insulin syringes are so damn expensive in North America... maybe I need to buy them by the 1,000 or more???

I don't mind paying for Suboxone because it's not that much money, and comparing it to a heroin habit, it's like pennies in the bucket. I do understand your concern though, I do believe ORT should be (at least much cheaper if not subsidized/free) because drug addicts do deserve a fighting chance, and ORT costs a lot less than addicts funding their habits illegally.

Well... I took another 2mg dose of sub this morning when I got up and I feel okay so far. No nausea yet, just a slight pressure behind my eyes like a tension headache, but I took some Ibuprofen for that. I will probably take another 2mg dose this evening and see how that goes. The good thing is, I have zero cravings and haven't even thought about a pill! I realize that this will be a long process and I am trying not to get too optimistic too soon... but so far so good. And I am okay today...I will worry about tomorrow, tomorrow...The other good thing is that with the smaller dose, I'm not getting big amounts of that "orange death liquid" left over in my mouth to swallow... And at this point, I will take any positivity that I can get!

It sounds like it's working well for you man! I understand about taking it one step at a time and not being overly optimistic all at once though... when I first got on Suboxone it was such a relief, but I still had WD symptoms that were residual and I still felt totally shitty.

As time goes on you will start to adjust to life without full agonist opiates and once you get 2-3 weeks with just Suboxone underneath your belt, it'll be a hell of a lot easier than it is now.

Keep us updated with how it goes for you, and best of luck!