Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[JamtasticX]

That shouldn't have put you into withdrawals, strange. I've never found that bupe has put me into p/w, and if you were only taking 75mg vic, that's pretty low, should be fine.? idk..

 

[destiny_days]

Well in the UK we dont pay Doctors or anything...You get the sub for free and if anything the Docs here make u lower ur sub dose and get u off....So quite the opposite to the United States Protocol..

I was only saying what my Doctor use to say, that doing a short sting on sub and even tapering still keeps a lot of half-life in you're system as the sub is only building and not built in your system. Whereas for a long term user the sub has been built so one can do a long slow taper and take out the bup from the body and mind..I dont know about it myself but was only going by what my Doctor said..She use to say since the half-life of sub is long (few days) that even on a short sting on sub ur only building the sub up in ur system so when u taper u its only quarter or half built in the system because your still getting use to sub but whereas to a long term user the patient is use to sub and has felt the full effects of having sub in the body & mind..You know when some say they like the high of sub and like to take it everyday as contrary to a long term user who says he/she is bored of sub it usually means the sub as built up in their system so they can do a long slow taper to rid the bup...But to short term bup user they are still use to the feeling of sub so even if they taper their mind wasnt ready to let go of the bup hence of feeling the effects and withdrawals of sub...I really dont know the truth in this or not nor do i frankly care..I just want to be clean of Subutex now..Ive been on it for 5 years but it did stop me taking heroin..I got my own house, lucrative job, 2 cars, respect from family and freinds, got decent life-style etc, no worries about money, career, health or family etc so in that sense it did well for me..Considering am still in my 20s...Now 1 obstable is to taper the sub and live life free of sub..Ive managed to taper from to 1mg from 8-12mg without any problem, this due to the fact i excercise and dont take any other meds.

I only want help and advice in what meds i can take which will help my withdrawals and if i can take a valium or ativan now and again at the lower stages of my sub taper i.e 0.8mg 0.6mg etc till am on 0.2mg and skipping days...Some say taking DHC will help yet others say it wont so am bit confused here..If anybody can recommend a taper plan from 1mg i would appreciate it..I dont know if i should go from 1mg to 0.5mg or to 0.8mg as is there a difference between 0.2mg and 0.5mg? i dont know. Can i take a Valium here and there at the lower stages of sub?

thanks.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

i have a script as well, 2mg clonazepam twice a day and 2mg alprazolam twice a day with suboxone(8/2) twice a day, not that i take all in a given day by any means, but was RX'd the clon and alp on seperate occassions(same doc) to see which works better. was on both before, but that was before i got on the suboxone maint. now i am out of everything until at least Friday, i dont know what to do!

sorry mods if i have broken any rules, im still learning them, this is my first time joining one of these forums and feel it could be alot of help venting to people and getting advice

if it's benzo's you seek, get some phenazepam they have some on a popular site.. quick ass shipping also.. (that wasn't too specific Mods, was it?)

 

[john3434]

Please dont take this personally but you may not be as sick as you think you are , Your mind can play alot of tricks on us . Yes you may have some withdrawal but for two weeks only with a taper it should not be so bad. Example was on methadone for a long time and i used to think i was sick in the morning and omg i need to get to the clinic asap , i went to jail had no choice had to cold turkey and although i got sick it was nothing what i made it out to be before in my head.
Get up , get a shower, eat some chicken broth you not eating is probably adding alot to it, take a small walk, tell yourself you can do it
I am not saying this to be a smart ass or a know it all, when i found out i had gotten kicked of my suboxone i was on for almost two yrs about on anywhere from sixteen to twenty four mgs, i stopped using it for two days then went back to four and i am on three and a half, I got myself all upset at first and then reminded me i wont die from this and i went out and bought immodium and you have ambien so that will help you . My dad and my friend said to me ok you need to get up and stop this and i had no choice because i have a baby . It was empowering and I know i can do it now with help from people in here and family and friends . I am only saying this because i do the same thing and when i stopped and made myself still move , eat and shower it got better.
just my experience and opinion feel free to ask others for help Goodluck

Thanks for the feedback. I understand what your saying and don't take it as being a smart ass. I've spent 7 days in jail coming off a 2 year long H and K4 habit, and no, this is nothing like that. I'm taking baths and showers, getting up each day, get on the exersize bike for 30 minutes, and do my best to get on with life. I guess my dismay and dread is more about the fact that I don't know what to expect with this, whereas I always knew what to expect with the short half life opiates....start with 4 hours of crying, feelings of severe depression, then the vomiting, the runs, the shakes, hot and cold, shaking legs,etc. Then, I know that after 72 hours I'll be fine. I won't sleep much, will be hyper, but nothing really uncomfortable. Added to that is the fact that a doctor told me there would be zero withdrawal. I'm not trying to bitch and whine about a withdrawal that's probably a lot less than what others have been through with this medicine. I've been through the absolute hell of withdrawals before to the point of nearly committing suicide. There's just something different about this and it drives me nuts. This medicine is insidious.

I'm seeing my doctor tomorrow and she's going to ask me what she can do to help. What should I tell her? What will help? It seems like nothing and that's so frustrating when it lasts so long. Does Tramadol do anything to help or does that prolong things?

 

[JamtasticX]

Well in the UK we dont pay Doctors or anything...You get the sub for free and if anything the Docs here make u lower ur sub dose and get u off....So quite the opposite to the United States Protocol..

I was only saying what my Doctor use to say, that doing a short sting on sub and even tapering still keeps a lot of half-life in you're system as the sub is only building and not built in your system. Whereas for a long term user the sub has been built so one can do a long slow taper and take out the bup from the body and mind..I dont know about it myself but was only going by what my Doctor said..She use to say since the half-life of sub is long (few days) that even on a short sting on sub ur only building the sub up in ur system so when u taper u its only quarter or half built in the system because your still getting use to sub but whereas to a long term user the patient is use to sub and has felt the full effects of having sub in the body & mind..You know when some say they like the high of sub and like to take it everyday as contrary to a long term user who says he/she is bored of sub it usually means the sub as built up in their system so they can do a long slow taper to rid the bup...But to short term bup user they are still use to the feeling of sub so even if they taper their mind wasnt ready to let go of the bup hence of feeling the effects and withdrawals of sub...I really dont know the truth in this or not nor do i frankly care..I just want to be clean of Subutex now..Ive been on it for 5 years but it did stop me taking heroin..I got my own house, lucrative job, 2 cars, respect from family and freinds, got decent life-style etc, no worries about money, career, health or family etc so in that sense it did well for me..Considering am still in my 20s...Now 1 obstable is to taper the sub and live life free of sub..Ive managed to taper from to 1mg from 8-12mg without any problem, this due to the fact i excercise and dont take any other meds.

I only want help and advice in what meds i can take which will help my withdrawals and if i can take a valium or ativan now and again at the lower stages of my sub taper i.e 0.8mg 0.6mg etc till am on 0.2mg and skipping days...Some say taking DHC will help yet others say it wont so am bit confused here..If anybody can recommend a taper plan from 1mg i would appreciate it..I dont know if i should go from 1mg to 0.5mg or to 0.8mg as is there a difference between 0.2mg and 0.5mg? i dont know. Can i take a Valium here and there at the lower stages of sub?

thanks.

I'm not trying to be a dickhead, and I will answer your questions, but think about this. You're building up all this worry in your head, prepping yourself with remedies about how to "deal" with withdrawal, what drugs will help, what you should and shouldn't take, and at what stage should you stop, or jump off. Have you ever considered that the effort you're going through isn't worth the time you'll remain on subs + pain of withdrawals if you were to just jump off now. You're already at 1mg, why not just jump off. Chances are it's not nearly as bad as you think, and if you turn off your computer for a few days, stop taking bupe, you'll be fine, and it's not worth all the trouble (now I know you're not going to do this, but I figured I'd give it a shot)

Anyways, I'm on subs, and scripted 2.5, was formerly 3mg, of clonazepam a day, so I wouldn't say there is any harm associated from potential overdose. Of course I don't know your tolerance to benzo's, but even with a low tolerance, I couldn't see that happening. Since it seems your quite worried about jumping off, I'd guess you'd probably be worried about taking the benzo's because you'll get addicted to them. From personal experience, I've been on Benzo's for about 2 years straight, usually got scripts 2 weeks at a time, and ended up eating them all in 3-4 days, then would repeat, and I've never had any problems, and I would abuse benzo's for years previous to that.

As far as jumping off, I refer you to my first paragraph, and above post, where I said if you are going to jump out of a plane and die at any height higher than 500, why jump at 100? Same applies here only convexly. If there is a magic number X, which is the amount of mg you can jump off bupe in your mind comfortably. If X is on a number line, no matter where you jump X, X+1, X+1.5, X+1.8, you are always going to pass through X.

So you are faced with three options.
1) You jump off at X+1 and you survive, and congratulations, you're done.
2) You attempt to jump off at X+1 and feel like complete shit for a very small amount of time, so you take some more, and repeat this until you find X and are happy. All together going through MINIMAL discomfort.
3) You attempt to find X on your own, like in your above post, which is almost IMPOSSIBLE to define, since I don't know what you can tolerate as far as withdrawals, and chances are, unless you are exactly correct, by attempting to jump off at exactly X, you are going to end up de facto choosing option #1 or #2

So again I ask, why not just jump?

 

[destiny_days]

Because for far the experiences ive read from various boards/forums/blogs that the only route for a long timer on Sub is to taper slowly and low..If u look at people's experiences most seem to suffer for months on end because they either jumped from a high dose such as 1mg or didnt taper at all.

Ive also got work and cant take so many weeks off....Also dont forget sub is many times strong as Morphine hence 0.4mg sub being 40 times strong as Morphine or something like that.

As many have said tapering saves weeks and months of terrible withdrawals. Ive got enough Subutex even on the 0.4mg and 0.2mg doses to do a taper..I just needed a taper plan thats all and any opinions on which meds will help...Ive also been on Buprenorphine for nearly 5 years now too..

All i see and hear is folks saying taper long and slow to save relapse and intense withdrawals...If one jumps from 1mgs obviously they will face a month or 2 of withdrawals and lingering withdrawals too so if one can take a month tapering from 1mgs then its logic that its saving a month or 2 of WDs isnt it and PAWS too?...Also to be hones i dont feel that much different to when i was on 6mgs..This kind of worries me..Makes me think ive got so much bup stuck in me that it will take a heck of a long time to rid, i duno.

So yeah like i said sub being strong as it is and from other's experiences tapering is the only way to go..I dont want to be in withdrawals for such a long time..I havent got the time...The most i take off from work are 2 weeks..Also i got other priorities too..They didnt make 0.4mg and 0.2mg for no reason did they? people arent using the water method for no reason are they?...If it means having less WDs and their duration jumping from 0.2mg then 1mg then obviously i will take jumping from 0.2mgs...I dont think i would feel that uncomofrtable tapering to 0.2mg because of the amount of excercise i do..Am pretty strong person and actually always use to ride out heroin withdrawals, i mean i still kept going, still slept, didnt stay in my bed all day etc...So i take feeling minor withdrawals for a period of time over feeling intense and long withdrawals..

 

[Georgie25]

Im wondering if people out there somewhere are taking dosages like 32mg a day for YEARS? Because i am prescribed 32mg a day but only take 4mg and am fine for 12 hours then i start getting minor w/ds. That would be a shitty taper coming off of 32mg a day for years...

 

[qwe]

update

it's been 2 to 3 months, suboxone free. i feel alright, though i'm in benzo w/d due to evil chinese people. but that's another thread (phenazepam)

for some reason, and ive writhed on teh bed throwing up and having the shits like none other on some other w/d's, i didn't poop once! what's up with that. is suboxone really that good at making withdrawal easier?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

How come so much water? 20 units seemed to work fine, prolly less would have worked as well. I always use less water with any shot I do because it's less risk of missing part of the shot as it takes less time to push the solution all in.

I'm of the same belief - that less water is better less of a chance of missing. Before I was micron filtering I preferred to use more water because it helps with avoiding getting the needle clogged.

If you want to use less water that's up to you. I prefer using less water, and that's easy to accomplish with micron filtering.

And dont worry I have a very good technique, even if I do re use my needles lots of times. Everyone i know is jealous of me because I can see every single vein on my arms and most of them are pretty big from working out/being tone/on the skinny side. In my 2 years of daily IV dope habit I can count on 1 hand the ammount of times I've missed and used the same two injection spots the whole time without collapsing veins or missing. IV coke led to more fuck ups though cause you tend to do a lot more shots right after another for hours on end...lol I use 27g cause thats all the exchange carries, never had any problems with them.

I have decent veins too and still have all of mine, I just use 31g's only, because I prefer to do roughly 5 to 6 shots per day. Glad to hear you have good technique. That's a plus. %)

But yeah I doubt im gonna make IVing my subs a habit, besides soothing my needle fixation nothing really of benefit was added by the experience.

Interesting. Glad to hear your experience, some people don't get much benefit out of it, I get a lot out of it for whatever reason. How long did it take until it onset for you? That seems to vary from person to person.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I'm totally with you about this. The one good thing about shooting subs, is that missing hurts so much, that you can feel if only 1 cc misses. therefore, it's really easy to know when you're in the vein and when your not.

You mean 1 unit; 1cc = 1ml = 100 units.

Does anyone know what it is that makes it hurt so bad if missed? I've shot quite a few pills in my time, and missed parts of the shot, and none of them hurt like suboxone does.

The inactive ingredients, like the corn starch. After micron filtering, Suboxone doesn't hurt nearly as much if you miss.

There are some drugs which hurt a lot more than Suboxone if you miss, like hydroxyzine (due to the non-neutral pH) or meth.

Hey all. I'm on day 6 of withdrawals from Subs after only taking them for two weeks in a low dose taper. I was of course told by my doctor that there would be no withdrawal. Well, there is and it's awful. I haven't eaten in three days, depressed, etc. Been taking Ambien at night which gets me 5 to 6 hours of sleep before I wake up sweating. I was sure that by day 6, because of the low dose and short period of time I was taking it that it would be over with. To be honest, it almost feels like it's getting worse. Does anyone know any tricks to make yourself eat? I have zero appetite and it's killing me. No energy. Completely drained and just feel awful.

Weed helps you eat.

Benzos give me the munchies. Trade your Ambien in for some benzos if you know you won't get addicted to them. As much as benzos can help make sure you don't get dependent on them.

I think by taking sleep meds or whatever they tend to posptone sub withdrawals or make them a tad worse. Some say they take 1 sleep tab and next day feel crappy so obviously ur bound to feel crappy with alreadying having minor sub withdrawals mixed with a sleep aid after-effects..

Also doing Short Term Buprenorphine Stint its actually building up the sub in ur system? so even if u taper u still have actually have sub in ur system whereas a long term sting on Subutex u have built up the sub in ur body to the max so then u can do a long slow taper and if u jump from 0.2mg u only withdrawa of a 0.2mg dose?...This is what my Doctor told me once.. Dont know if its true..She said short term stay on sub and then taper actually isnt the best as the sub builds up in ur system but not to the max and not enough to do a taper so when u do u jump u actually have lot of half-life of sub in ur system..But on a long term Maintence sub stay u got enough sub in ur system to do a long slow taper and not build so much bup...I hope u know what am saying and if it makes sense.. Oh well!.


Is Valium good to use when tapering Subutex on Low Doses such as 0.8mg and under????????????......I only mean to use them sparringly here and there when tapering on lower doses of Subutex?

Cheers!.

Sleep meds help me out, I don't think that they make the WD worse whatsoever.

Benzos are fine to use with buprenorphine, I think that there's decent synergy there.

Some people prefer a short term taper, I like a long term taper. It differs form person to person.

 

[JamtasticX]

Because for far the experiences ive read from various boards/forums/blogs that the only route for a long timer on Sub is to taper slowly and low..If u look at people's experiences most seem to suffer for months on end because they either jumped from a high dose such as 1mg or didnt taper at all.

Ive also got work and cant take so many weeks off....Also dont forget sub is many times strong as Morphine hence 0.4mg sub being 40 times strong as Morphine or something like that.

As many have said tapering saves weeks and months of terrible withdrawals. Ive got enough Subutex even on the 0.4mg and 0.2mg doses to do a taper..I just needed a taper plan thats all and any opinions on which meds will help...Ive also been on Buprenorphine for nearly 5 years now too..

All i see and hear is folks saying taper long and slow to save relapse and intense withdrawals...If one jumps from 1mgs obviously they will face a month or 2 of withdrawals and lingering withdrawals too so if one can take a month tapering from 1mgs then its logic that its saving a month or 2 of WDs isnt it and PAWS too?...Also to be hones i dont feel that much different to when i was on 6mgs..This kind of worries me..Makes me think ive got so much bup stuck in me that it will take a heck of a long time to rid, i duno.

So yeah like i said sub being strong as it is and from other's experiences tapering is the only way to go..I dont want to be in withdrawals for such a long time..I havent got the time...The most i take off from work are 2 weeks..Also i got other priorities too..They didnt make 0.4mg and 0.2mg for no reason did they? people arent using the water method for no reason are they?...If it means having less WDs and their duration jumping from 0.2mg then 1mg then obviously i will take jumping from 0.2mgs...I dont think i would feel that uncomofrtable tapering to 0.2mg because of the amount of excercise i do..Am pretty strong person and actually always use to ride out heroin withdrawals, i mean i still kept going, still slept, didnt stay in my bed all day etc...So i take feeling minor withdrawals for a period of time over feeling intense and long withdrawals..

The only thing that is going to SAVE you from relapse is if you don't choose to do opiates again, NOTHING other than that can SAVE you.

You've got no way of knowing if you're even going to have any withdrawals. Why not just stop taking your suboxone right now, and not take it again until you feel "intense and long withdrawals".

This will not affect your work, because once you begin such "intense" withdrawals, you can just go back on your sub, and no problem? Seriously, whats the problem of trying it? Worst case is you find out your right, no harm done. Make a post, saying what time you took your last bupe dose, and another dose at the time you have "intense withdrawals" that would require you not to work, and are so horrible that you've had to keep them away for years. I'm sorry, but if you are honestly that scared of withdrawal because "[a]s many have said tapering saves weeks and months of terrible withdrawals." then you're in some dire trouble.

And as far as potency, you cite 40x Morphine. So 1mg bupe = 40mg morphine = 20mg heroin = 0.02 grams heroin = less than a $10 bag of heroin for me.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

This is a pretty basic inquiry about Suboxone, so I'm going to move this into the mega thread.

 

[Znegative]

when they say that sub is stronger than morphine, do they mean that it's ability to bind to the opiate receptors is stronger, or that it's overall potency mg for mg is stronger as a pain killer up to a certain point (since buprenorphine has a ceiling effect.)

 

[Captain.Heroin]

when they say that sub is stronger than morphine, do they mean that it's ability to bind to the opiate receptors is stronger, or that it's overall potency mg for mg is stronger as a pain killer up to a certain point (since buprenorphine has a ceiling effect.)

They are referring to potency.

The affinity is also stronger.

They aren't referring to analgesia though, I believe morphine has better analgesic properties.

 

[Znegative]

so I'm hopefully going to aquire some Opana IR 10mg soon. I take daily now roughly .9 mg of suboxone/day I.V. I've heard from many that oxymorphone is an extremely potent opiod, and I want to be safe when using it. I plan on I.V'ing 2.5mg for my first shot. Is this a safe dosage for the level of suboxone I'm on? For my first experience with this pill I would rather underdose and be safe than to risk an overdose. I know things like this vary from individual to individual, but if anyone had any experience regarding this, it would be helpfull. I've only used opiates besides suboxone about 5 times within the last 4-5 months. Any responses would be helpfull.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

^ i dont know if this helps but i nod off and get decently fucked up from sniffing 2mgs of bupe, and a little more than half a 20mg opanaER(around 12mgs) puts me on my ass

 

[Znegative]

it gives me a sense, although I hear the BA difference between Insufflation and Intravenous are very drastic. That is why I'm planning to do about 2.5 mg I.V opana, but I want to make sure this is a good dosage, and not underestimate suboxone, nor opana's power.

 

[ashla]

Thanks for the feedback. I understand what your saying and don't take it as being a smart ass. I've spent 7 days in jail coming off a 2 year long H and K4 habit, and no, this is nothing like that. I'm taking baths and showers, getting up each day, get on the exersize bike for 30 minutes, and do my best to get on with life. I guess my dismay and dread is more about the fact that I don't know what to expect with this, whereas I always knew what to expect with the short half life opiates....start with 4 hours of crying, feelings of severe depression, then the vomiting, the runs, the shakes, hot and cold, shaking legs,etc. Then, I know that after 72 hours I'll be fine. I won't sleep much, will be hyper, but nothing really uncomfortable. Added to that is the fact that a doctor told me there would be zero withdrawal. I'm not trying to bitch and whine about a withdrawal that's probably a lot less than what others have been through with this medicine. I've been through the absolute hell of withdrawals before to the point of nearly committing suicide. There's just something different about this and it drives me nuts. This medicine is insidious.

I'm seeing my doctor tomorrow and she's going to ask me what she can do to help. What should I tell her? What will help? It seems like nothing and that's so frustrating when it lasts so long. Does Tramadol do anything to help or does that prolong things?

hey hope your doing a little better ,
i don't know much about tramadol i had huge scripts of them and usually sold them now i see that people get high from them
. Anyway i am not an expert on bupe withdrawal whatsoever but i will tell you please eat, even if it is one of those breakfast drinks
, Clonidine helped me immensely when cutting so low and i had one xanax everyday, now that is where it gets sticky for some people i have been addicted to xanax so i am kind of scared of it Try asking for clonidine , if you get a benzo ask for a slow acting one like Valium instead of fast acting ones like ativan or xanax.
try Imodium i heard great things about that for withdrawal Also make your self drink alot of water I know sounds simple but if your sweating you need to replenish yourself. If you need someone to talk to you can msg me i will try my little one is getting teeth and he is driving me nutssss. goodluck hon

 

[ashla]

I'm wondering if people out there somewhere are taking dosages like 32mg a day for YEARS? Because i am prescribed 32mg a day but only take 4mg and am fine for 12 hours then i start getting minor w/ds. That would be a shitty taper coming off of 32mg a day for years...

hi i thought same thing as well but really coming down from a big dose to a smaller dose was easy . I look at how much i am doing now 4 mg at most and think that is a lot, i used to snort eighteen mg at once how the heck did i do that
now i snort two mg twice a day
. i heard that it is when your jumping from like one mg it is harder . i am on it over two yrs and it does annoy me that doctors are over dosing there patients on it (not literally)
. Also when pregnant i was on it and the doctor increased me to twenty four mgs a day I didnt do that much but i think of other women who dont know as much as i do about sub and go on it while pregnant and the doctor gets them addicted to a big dose . I like suboxone dont get me wrong it seems like i am saying i dont but i feel the doctors should either know more about it .
I can imagine where a patient would be scared of coming down of a big dose and i was . The thing that annoys me the most is i wasted like two yrs on such a big dose and truly feel like i was feeling crappy for most of it.
Since i lowered my dose i physically feel better. i am not as tired, i can go to the bathroom easier and i honestly think once in a while i get like a little high
I think that i even knew this because i would come in blue light and read less is more but the addict mentality i have that i wont feel good on a low dose
I was devestated when the doctor kicked me of and felt like omg how will i do this and i have an eleven mth old but i had a script of sixty plus a refill and just had to say to myself i cant afford to go to another doctor and i can't afford the pills So myhand was pushed and i am glad!
Will i continue to feel this way when i go lower is to be seen and i wont say i will never go to a doctor if i need to I am just enjoying today and will come to that road if i have to

 

[FlawedByDesign]

it gives me a sense, although I hear the BA difference between Insufflation and Intravenous are very drastic. That is why I'm planning to do about 2.5 mg I.V opana, but I want to make sure this is a good dosage, and not underestimate suboxone, nor opana's power.

I believe opana's BA is 20-45% when snorted and 95-99% when shot so yea thats a pretty big margin, always good to start small and work your way up