Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[homeydontplaythat]

the problem with doctors is that they have never taken the meds they prescribe. nor do they actually observe or are friends with anyone that does. if it were not for BL i would have no clue that xanax could be so fucking horrible in terms of wd. reading the horror stories here has scared me from taking benzos. doctors also dont have time to care about you. you are a number, not a person. sad but true.

 

[baschoen]

I just don't understand why these nurses/doctors from detox clinics would tell me 3-5 days and that they have experience taking people off suboxone at much higher levels. As I said showing them BL will NOT help my father and doctor will not believe anything on here. They all say the internet is the worst place to go for advice although people on this website have experienced it and know what to expect. They just don't get it. Its so frustrating that everyone keeps telling me it will be no problem to jump at 4mgs. I know they are wrong and I know I have to lower my dose but I got so anxious going down from 4-2 I couldn't even function on a daily basis. I would wake up every morning with cramping, sweats, diahreaha all the fun stuff. I wish I had known what a hell suboxone would be to get off....

 

[homeydontplaythat]

welcome to the terror dome

 

[DeLee]

Is there any sort of rush when you boot subs?

I know some people do consider there to be something of a rush, like Captain.Heroin stated.
But I gotta disagree on that, the only thing that happens is the buprenorphine starts working 5min faster.
But if your in to needles (which is quite common) to always get that psychological kick when injecting something.

I was injecting Bupe for 3 years which i regret pretty much. Just causing damage to veins and organs for no reward.
Different story with amphetamine, cocaine or heroin which actually has some sort of payoff = a rush.

 

[jamesBrown]

I know some people do consider there to be something of a rush, like Captain.Heroin stated.
But I gotta disagree on that, the only thing that happens is the buprenorphine starts working 5min faster.
But if your in to needles (which is quite common) to always get that psychological kick when injecting something.

I was injecting Bupe for 3 years which i regret pretty much. Just causing damage to veins and organs for no reward.
Different story with amphetamine, cocaine or heroin which actually has some sort of payoff = a rush.

Unfortunately im going to have to disagree with you. I, from personal experience, know for a fact that it is possible to get a rush from IV suboxone. I also know that it is possible to not only get a rush, but get a very good rush and a very nice high as well(comparable to many other strong opiates depending on the person injecting the subs and there tolerance/experience, etc..).

In my opinion, the "rush" you get from IV subs is dependent upon what dose you are maintaining on, how long you have been maintaining on that dose, and possibly factors that have to do with the biology of the individual(as in, some people are just different and cant/dont get a rush from IV'ing subs, or oxy, or whatever drug....everyone is different). But I know for a fact that I can get a rush consistently by IV'ing suboxone(bupernorphine), and I have also personally witnessed people who can do the same, not to emntion the many people here on BL who have enjoyed a nice suboxone rush after IV'ing.

I believe you must be maintained on a very low dose(anything below 2 mg's, preferably 1mg or less), and you must not be using the suboxone as a crutch between using full agonists, back and forth....for that will pretty much negate any positive effects you could obtain from IV suboxone.

I would inject about 0.5 mg's at a time and get a nice little rush that is unique and difficult to describe because its a unique opiate, but the best way to explain it in my opinion, is that its like taking a few hydrocodone pills when you are first getting into opiates, except the high you get from the "hydrocodone"(subs) comes all at once and not gradually, and it always comes about 5-10 minutes after you inject. And for me, the actual rush lasts a good 10 minutes or so, maybe 5 minutes sometimes, but the positive effects such as energy, and "happiness"(anti-depressant) last much longer, more like a few hours.
I have always thought that the fact the rush is delayed a few minutes is very interesting because I cant seem to come up with an explanation for it. I would be very glad to find out from someone what causes that if they know.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

I just don't understand why these nurses/doctors from detox clinics would tell me 3-5 days and that they have experience taking people off suboxone at much higher levels. As I said showing them BL will NOT help my father and doctor will not believe anything on here. They all say the internet is the worst place to go for advice although people on this website have experienced it and know what to expect. They just don't get it. Its so frustrating that everyone keeps telling me it will be no problem to jump at 4mgs. I know they are wrong and I know I have to lower my dose but I got so anxious going down from 4-2 I couldn't even function on a daily basis. I would wake up every morning with cramping, sweats, diahreaha all the fun stuff. I wish I had known what a hell suboxone would be to get off....

Saying you'll get over WDs in 3-5 days after jumping of at 4mg is straight up bullshit. I tapered down from 12mg to 1mg over 5 weeks and had a solid week of very bad withdrawals.

All the learned individuals in this thread were telling me to go down to 0.5 and then 0.25 but I thought my Dr. would have to know as much as the guys here. He's an amazing Dr. but also told me it would be 3-4 days of feeling some 'flu like symptoms' and then it would all be over. It was pretty much living hell for a week but now it is all over *touch wood*.

Do not jump off at 4mg unless you are prepared for at least a week of fairly intense withdrawal. There is a strong consensus in this thread that the lower/slower you taper, the better the outcome will be. Maybe tell your dad that if he really wants you off drugs, there's a much better chance it will happen if you taper properly.

As others have said, there seems to be a real problem with Dr's understanding of the withdrawal effects of Suboxone. I don't know of any journal articles or studies but if you google 'Suboxone withdrawal' there are quite a few sites that detail these misconceptions. Several of them look more 'official' than Bluelight so you might be able to use them to sway your Dr. and dad.

On the other hand, it is possible to just tough it out and put up with a couple of shitty weeks to free yourself of this drug. You just need to really want to do it for yourself, not anyone else because you will need a lot of willpower.

My progress:

Actually felt GOOD yesterday / last night! :D I had dinner with my mum and didn't feel the least bit sick, then at about 3am, had some McDs and no stomach complaints whatsoever. I'm putting it down to three things:
1: Simply being well over the worst of the withdrawals
2: Dosing up big time of Lope (shoulda listened to you dudes earlier about that one)
3: Exercise!

The only issue I have right now is that I am completely nocturnal. I didn't get to sleep until 8.30am local time this morning. I just saw the Dr. and he prescribed me melatonin. I'm not sure how well that will work so I'm just going to keep getting up half an hour earlier every day until I am back to a proper day/night cycle. It wouldn't bother me but I need to start eating properly and I can't cook dinner at 3am without pissing off my flatmates (hence the trip to McDonald's last night).

Things are well and truly looking up!

Good luck everyone

 

[caseface99]

Glad to hear how great you are doing, i hope to be at .1mg from the .5 i am at now and then jump off sometime in December.

My plan thus far is take .5mg for a week from today, i started .5 yesterday. Then depending on how i feel at .5 a week from now - either wait another week or jump down to .25. Then go a week or 2 on .25 and see how i feel, then a week on .1, then a week with .1 every other day, then drop off and see how it goes. Does anybody see any issues with this plan? I should have enough i will be getting a new scrip of 90 600mg gabapentin and 15 .1mg clonidine right about when i hope to completely drop off, as well as my girlfriend has copious amounts of .2mg clonidine and i doubt i will need it but she also has some 100mg gabapentin. Anything else i get has to be over the counter, but ill start gathering that up when the time arrives.

 

[JamtasticX]

Was you already a regular (daily) user of Subutex when you went into WD or was it your first time on the Substance off heroin?

I ask because I know a fair few people who (including myself) can wait roughly 3-5 hours after taking heroin, and then use Subutex without any side effects.

Yea, I can do that too.

The reason you and I can jump back and forth has to do with our tolerances.

This is hard to explain, but I'm going to try. Lets say you have 10 receptors, full of heroin. You then take suboxone while they are all full, you'll end up in withdrawals because the sub is going to be weaker than the heroin, and your body is used to 10 of heroin.

However, once you stabilise to 10 receptors of subs, then you can take some heroin, then subs later. The subs will kick off the heroin and bind, however, you'll be at 10 receptors of subs, which you are stabilised at, and therefore you won't get withdrawals.

Hopefully that made sense, regardless, I can also jump back and forth between heroin and suboxone easily, without waiting more than a few hours. I only wait a few hours so I don't waste the heroin. Although I can do this, I don't do it often, because I personally like to wait until I need to take suboxone. I try not to take suboxone when I don't feel crappy, because to me that's a waste.

It can be done, jumping back and forth, very quickly, however it depends on the person. I would not advise everyone to do this.

 

[jamesBrown]

Yea, I can do that too.

The reason you and I can jump back and forth has to do with our tolerances.

This is hard to explain, but I'm going to try. Lets say you have 10 receptors, full of heroin. You then take suboxone while they are all full, you'll end up in withdrawals because the sub is going to be weaker than the heroin, and your body is used to 10 of heroin.

However, once you stabilise to 10 receptors of subs, then you can take some heroin, then subs later. The subs will kick off the heroin and bind, however, you'll be at 10 receptors of subs, which you are stabilised at, and therefore you won't get withdrawals.

Hopefully that made sense, regardless, I can also jump back and forth between heroin and suboxone easily, without waiting more than a few hours. I only wait a few hours so I don't waste the heroin. Although I can do this, I don't do it often, because I personally like to wait until I need to take suboxone. I try not to take suboxone when I don't feel crappy, because to me that's a waste.

It can be done, jumping back and forth, very quickly, however it depends on the person. I would not advise everyone to do this.

of course you can jump back and forth from using heroin to suboxone and then back again, i have done it a few times myself, it works fine if you do it in a certain way...but if you continue to do this at any frequency, you will end up making your tolerance skyrocket, and eventually the effectiveness of the suboxone will be lessened, eventually to the point where you shouldnt even bother using it to get clean when you finally do decide to quit getting high all the time. You will have to find some other route of getting clean, whether its methadone, cold turkey, or maybe anoter full agonist.....but not subs, the partial agonistic effects of the drug make it much more sensitive, especially when being mixed with full agonists back anf forth.

 

[Philsadvns]

IV Bupe

I have been taking suboxone via IV for maybe 2 years or so now, mostly because (and I am so glad to see the bioavailability research that captain heroin posted backs me up on this...I knew I wasn't crazy) I need waaaay less of a dose to hold me than if I take it sublingually (I use about one 8mg suboxone a week, shooting maybe 1/5th - 1/3rd a mg a few times a day). The only problem I have is that after a few weeks of only shooting subs, I get pain in my veins, and sometimes even like dark lines on my skin where the veins I use are. The pain gets so bad sometimes that I have to stop shooting subs and take a break for a couple days and get some OC's or some bags or something, purely just for pain relief. Now I have no illusions that this is certainly a bad thing, and I don't want to damage my veins if I don't have to, but I don't have insurance, or indeed, a prescription for suboxone, and I just cant put myself through all the necessary cocaine sales to make the money I used to have when my habit started, and shooting the subs allows me to cut my suboxone budget literally in half if not even less. For a long time I thought I was the only one out there who shoots their subs on a regular basis, but reading a few of captain heroin's posts I see that that isn't the case. My question is, does anyone else who shoots their subs experience this pain, or the lines on their skin? And part 2 of my questions is, has anyone found a solution? I have noticed that the suboxone strips seems to be a little bit more painless, but they're also a pain in the ass to work with, and after a long enough period of time the pain retuns to the same level. Anyone out there in drugland have an answer to this? Your help would be appreciated.

 

[JamtasticX]

of course you can jump back and forth from using heroin to suboxone and then back again, i have done it a few times myself, it works fine if you do it in a certain way...but if you continue to do this at any frequency, you will end up making your tolerance skyrocket, and eventually the effectiveness of the suboxone will be lessened, eventually to the point where you shouldnt even bother using it to get clean when you finally do decide to quit getting high all the time. You will have to find some other route of getting clean, whether its methadone, cold turkey, or maybe anoter full agonist.....but not subs, the partial agonistic effects of the drug make it much more sensitive, especially when being mixed with full agonists back anf forth.

I'd agree. In my case though I have no desire to get "clean". I jump back and forth because I can, and I'm only on suboxone because I have good insurance.

Will this bite me in the ass eventually, yes. Will I be pissed when that happens, yes. However, right now I'm just enjoying the ride

_________________________________

side note, I found this article on my computer about bupe. I didn't look it over yet, so I don't know what it's about, but I attached it to this post if anyone wants to check it out

The article is actualy titled: Buprenorphine: A Unique Drug with Complex Pharmacology


I had to split it into 2 pdf's, because it was too big to be uploaded as one.

 

[jamesBrown]

I have been taking suboxone via IV for maybe 2 years or so now, mostly because (and I am so glad to see the bioavailability research that captain heroin posted backs me up on this...I knew I wasn't crazy) I need waaaay less of a dose to hold me than if I take it sublingually (I use about one 8mg suboxone a week, shooting maybe 1/5th - 1/3rd a mg a few times a day). The only problem I have is that after a few weeks of only shooting subs, I get pain in my veins, and sometimes even like dark lines on my skin where the veins I use are. The pain gets so bad sometimes that I have to stop shooting subs and take a break for a couple days and get some OC's or some bags or something, purely just for pain relief. Now I have no illusions that this is certainly a bad thing, and I don't want to damage my veins if I don't have to, but I don't have insurance, or indeed, a prescription for suboxone, and I just cant put myself through all the necessary cocaine sales to make the money I used to have when my habit started, and shooting the subs allows me to cut my suboxone budget literally in half if not even less. For a long time I thought I was the only one out there who shoots their subs on a regular basis, but reading a few of captain heroin's posts I see that that isn't the case. My question is, does anyone else who shoots their subs experience this pain, or the lines on their skin? And part 2 of my questions is, has anyone found a solution? I have noticed that the suboxone strips seems to be a little bit more painless, but they're also a pain in the ass to work with, and after a long enough period of time the pain retuns to the same level. Anyone out there in drugland have an answer to this? Your help would be appreciated.

I am so sorry to hear your experience. I dont understand why that is happening exactly, allthough I think I have heard of a couple other people having similar problems. Maybe it has somethign to do with each persons circulatory system.

I know that I was able to inject suboxone for several months and NEVER had ANY negative side effects at all. Especially any problems with my veins. Allthough I never missed a shot as I am almost a certified phlebotomist so maybe that helped...do you miss shots sometimes?... because the pill fillers and binders can cause serious problems if missed. Usually they cause abscesses but maybe its possible they cause the symptoms you are experiencing.

Wish I could help more sry. Maybe try using a micron filter(which I never did).
Good Luck.

_________________________________

side note, I found this article on my computer about bupe. I didn't look it over yet, so I don't know what it's about, but I attached it to this post if anyone wants to check it out

The article is actualy titled: Buprenorphine: A Unique Drug with Complex Pharmacology


I had to split it into 2 pdf's, because it was too big to be uploaded as one.

I think that is a somewhat interesting article but I dont think it has much data that could be used here on BL......

Thus, the goal of this
review is to provide evidence demonstrating that the ORL-1 receptor plays a functional role not only
in the antinociceptive effect of buprenorphine but also in other actions of the drug as well

 

[Philsadvns]

No I never miss. And further more, I usually shoot in the back of my hands or my wrists, and the pain only occurs further up my arms in my forearms and sometimes as far up as my elbow. It is really weird and its a pain in assssss.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

No I never miss. And further more, I usually shoot in the back of my hands or my wrists, and the pain only occurs further up my arms in my forearms and sometimes as far up as my elbow. It is really weird and its a pain in assssss.

My guess is that you might be hitting a nerve.

 

[JamtasticX]

@James

Yea, I didn't read through it, I just noticed I had a bupe article on my computer so I put it up in case anyone wanted to read it.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I had a really intense neck/head ache... I think it's mostly gone.

 

[baschoen]

Does anyone see doing a quick taper from 4mg down causing issues since ive been on sub for 6 months now if I accelerate my taper I could see major issues coming up. Anyone know a good taper schedule and how long to be on each dosage? The only reason I am looking into all this IP detox stuff is because I want to be off suboxone ASAP so I can move on with my life. I cant have a real job and worry about going through withdrawals. I've been on suboxone for 6months, never used another opiate for this long consistantly. In hindsight I was probably not a good candidate for suboxone in the first place should have just cold turkeyed from my short and relatively low OC habit, but I'm a huge wimp when it comes to W/D.

 

[astroboy007]

Ok guys well i have the answer, iv'ing suboxone does FUCK ALL, i had 8mg and whoever it was that said they would rather drink poppy tea is dead right, you cannot feel it.

 

[Suboxone]

Ok guys well i have the answer, iv'ing suboxone does FUCK ALL, i had 8mg and whoever it was that said they would rather drink poppy tea is dead right, you cannot feel it.

because you're retarded. you can't feel a damn thing if you boot 8mg.

to get a high off bupe you need low tolerance and a low (<2mg) dose.

 

[*=Regulator=*]

Does anyone see doing a quick taper from 4mg down causing issues since ive been on sub for 6 months now if I accelerate my taper I could see major issues coming up. Anyone know a good taper schedule and how long to be on each dosage? The only reason I am looking into all this IP detox stuff is because I want to be off suboxone ASAP so I can move on with my life. I cant have a real job and worry about going through withdrawals. I've been on suboxone for 6months, never used another opiate for this long consistantly. In hindsight I was probably not a good candidate for suboxone in the first place should have just cold turkeyed from my short and relatively low OC habit, but I'm a huge wimp when it comes to W/D.

I found that a dropping my dose every 7 days didn't cause too much pain at all. What you need to remember is to decrease the amount you drop off every week as the % amount will change - e.g. going from 10mg to 9mg is only a 10% drop but going from 2mg to 1mg is a 50% drop. To account for this, as your doses get lower you may need to decrease the amount you drop off.

I went from 12mg to 1mg in 5 weeks and it wasn't too bad. What I should have done is keep tapering right down to 0.25mg and then 0.25mg every second day. If you space it out over enough time you should experience very little, if any withdrawals. It's all about balancing how long you want to be on the Sub vs. how well you can tolerate withdrawals.

If it helps, I did what most would consider a pretty 'rapid' taper and was only really sick for a week. If you can man up and take the pain for a single week of your long life, you'll be well and truly over the worst.