Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v2; 2010

[*=Regulator=*]

Didn't get a chance to read over the other posts, but will do that after I type mine.

So I'm plenty tolerant to subs, and to kpins. I take around ~75-90 of them in about a week, and am still functional. It has been 3 weeks since I had any benzo's, and I'm not in any withdrawals, feel fine, etc, etc/

So yesterday my buddy and I go to get some pins, I had taken 2mg of sub earlier that day, and take 2mg more before we go.

Side note: I had been sick for the past few days (not drug w/d sick, but normal germ sick).
Unless you want to read whole thing, feel free to ignore this part

NSFW:

Anyways, first thing that should've alerted me o something being wrong was I was in a store and I had one of those time skip moments. It's hard to explain, but for those who do drugs (duh bluelight), it's lets say someone throws a ball at you, you see the ball in his hand, and next thing its smacking you. The in between moment was non existant.

I was in a store flicking something off a shelf to catch, I flick, next thing I know I'm halfway prone to the ground catching the thing, with no middle portion.

Anyways, back to story.

I had gotten 5 x 1mg kpins for myself, which is low considering to what I normally get.

Since I'm probably rambling, end of story....
I end up getting retarded, although it takes a while for it to fully kick in. I had to go out later that night to get my buddy some dope, don't really remember that, get home, don't remember that, woke up 26 hours later! Like an hour ago.

During this time I was jammed out of my mind. 4mgs of suboxone and 5mg of klonopin. Additionally I have massive black holes in my memory

Just saying, if you get yourself down to low levels of bupe, atleast where I am at ~2mg per day, you're liable to get extreamly fucked up off some benzos.

The only thing that has ever put major holes in my memory (like losing 24 hours) is Zolpidem (Ambien/Stilnox). Once I took about 100mg (10 pills) and for some reason didn't fall asleep. I was up for most of the night and next day. I was living with my family at the time and was apparently doing all sorts of crazy shit like having conversations with my cat and dogs, 'pinballing' around the house, revealing excruciatingly embarrassing secrets to my parents and running into my sister's room, jumping on her bed and running out again repeatedly. My parent's assumed I was tripping balls on acid or something and were a minute from taking me to ER when I finally passed out. I remember NOTHING of the entire event except for a few fleeting snapshots.

Not my finest hour. Zolpidem and other benzos (yes, I know Zolpidem isn't a 'real' benzo) can really fuck you up if you take too much, although in my experience, Zolpidem is much more likely to make you do really crazy shit.

Back to me: After going through ~60mg of Valium a day my Dr. has made me drop back to 25mg. He's making me pick up my doses every three days which is fair enough. Halving the dose isn't going to help my sleep but I really don't want to end up kicking Sub just to get hooked on benzos so I'm not complaining.

It's 9.30pm local time so probably got another 10 hours or so before I can even consider a nap. Time to start getting through my built up pile of books.

If anyone's interested, here's a couple of books that are extremely cutting-edge regarding issues such as addiction and PAWS (please note the references below contain the Australian publisher but both of these books are available internationally - Google that bitch!):

Harris, R (MD). (2007). The Happiness Trap: Stop Struggling, Start Living. Wollombi: Exisle Publishing

- The above is about how regular ideas of 'happiness' are misleading, inaccurate and actually directly contribute to the current epidemic of stress, anxiety and depression. The book also details how current psychological approaches are making things worse.

I've read about half of it and it makes a lot of sense. It outlines how we are our own worst enemies when it comes to the quest for 'happiness' and gives a lot of practical advice on how to overcome these self-destructive tendencies. It's a little bit like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy but makes much more intuitive sense.

Doidge, N (MD). (2010). The Brain That Changes Itself. Carlton North: Scribe Publications

- I've read about a third of this one and it's about a concept called 'neuroplasticity'; literally, the ability of the brain to restore itself. Most of you would have heard things like 'there are only a limited number of brain cells and once you lose them, they can't grow back' or similar things. Conversely, this book argues that the brain has incredible regenerative powers if tweaked in the right way. It cites numerous cases including someone who had been labelled as 'retarded' for his entire life dramatically increasing his IQ, people who had been written off as psychological lost causes making full recoveries and drug addicts literally re-wiring the way their brains work in order to overcome their difficulties.

Both these books may sound a bit like the usual 'self help' bullshit that fill rows of bookstores but critically, they are backed by extensive research and case studies. Definitely worth checking out if you have the time.

 

[VerbalTruist]

Is there any sort of rush when you boot subs?

 

[JamtasticX]

The only thing that has ever put major holes in my memory (like losing 24 hours) is Zolpidem (Ambien/Stilnox). Once I took about 100mg (10 pills) and for some reason didn't fall asleep. I was up for most of the night and next day. I was living with my family at the time and was apparently doing all sorts of crazy shit like having conversations with my cat and dogs, 'pinballing' around the house, revealing excruciatingly embarrassing secrets to my parents and running into my sister's room, jumping on her bed and running out again repeatedly. My parent's assumed I was tripping balls on acid or something and were a minute from taking me to ER when I finally passed out. I remember NOTHING of the entire event except for a few fleeting snapshots.

Not my finest hour. Zolpidem and other benzos (yes, I know Zolpidem isn't a 'real' benzo) can really fuck you up if you take too much, although in my experience, Zolpidem is much more likely to make you do really crazy shit.

I'm scripted 75 kpins a month, and I take some extras, and I fine. It's weird because it was only 3 weeks since my last script and I took 5mg of kpins + 2 mg of suboxone, and I was gone.

I was susposed to get a few more pins today, but the lady bailed out on me. I did a small amount of heroin I did, and barely feel it, and now I can't do the last 2mgs of sub I have left.

I don't go to the Dr to get more kpins + suboxone untill wed morning. Ugh, I'm angry !

 

[catcalls]

IME when I was on a regular dose of Subutex, taking heroin then taking Subutex afterwards did not send me into instant Withdrawal. I've also heard of some people waiting 5 hours ~ when on Subutex ~ before mixing heroin and Subutex together.

Anotherwords, I think 5 hours is the most you should wait if you are already addicted to Subutex, and have taken heroin and want to take your Subutex again. I've done Subutex roughly 3 hours after taking heroin, and it made me feel a hell of a lot better.

But, taking heroin on top of your Subutex dose, well, that just does not work. It never got me high. And I used to smoke a fair few bags of gear trying to get high, but I never did once addicted to Subutex.

I think that is why I've never gotten myself hooked on heroin since rehab.

 

[catcalls]

I'd just like to state that I took heroin smoked on foil, and Subutex dissolved under the tongue. I am not sure, but something made me post this next to the above post. Just in case you are pinning up and think, Hey, I'll take my Subutex now catcalls said that.

 

[VerbalTruist]

I have been put into precip. w/d because I didnt wait long enough with Subutex. Not sure whats going on with you but lucky you perhaps a low enough dose of both.

 

[catcalls]

I have been put into precip. w/d because I didnt wait long enough with Subutex. Not sure whats going on with you but lucky you perhaps a low enough dose of both.

Was you already a regular (daily) user of Subutex when you went into WD or was it your first time on the Substance off heroin?

I ask because I know a fair few people who (including myself) can wait roughly 3-5 hours after taking heroin, and then use Subutex without any side effects.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Is there any sort of rush when you boot subs?

Yes, but if you're expecting it to be like shooting meth, heroin, cocaine, ketamine, or midazolam, I have the feeling you'll be disappointed.

If anyone else wants my input, I'll be back later. I'm kind of tired and cold right now.

 

[caseface99]

I never experienced any sort of rush with subs, at any dose. From mics to 6mg in a shot. So i feel like it depends on tolerance, since at the time i could also shoot 10 bags of dope and not be high.

On a nerdy note, My copies of PHIKAL and THIKAL just arrived!

 

[morphinanymous]

I went to a detox center earlier this summer and went from 32mg of Subs and 20- 40mg alprazolam to 0 in 5 days and then spent 22 days without a fucking thing, well almost the first 3 I was weening of Temerz and Xanies so I had 7.5 temazepams for 3 nites and tranxene for 3 nites, after which I was put on trazadone first then remeron, then ramelton and then nothing. Luckily I'm back on Subs, Hydroxyzine, and Temerz. I smoked pot twice and drank every night. It was actually a decent experience the World Cup was on so all I did was puke, shit, seizure, drink and watch soccer.Anyways.

When I was clean I realized I could finally truly test the myth of the suboxone low mg/mcg shots. At 26 days i shot maybe 1mg of Subs felt a VERY, VERY SUBTLE rush and got pissed rode my moped to my friends and picked up 2 2mg Xanax which I ate instantly in my frustration. This took, oh maybe 10 minutes. As soon I swallowed those bars the bupe hit me and FUCKED ME UP. I honestly turned down free heroin for bupe at this point I could buy subs off the street (this was before the films) and split that terrible fucking taste into pieces and get HIGH. Like many have said though the rush is subtle if ANY at all, it takes a minute, and isn't really like other opiate highs in my opinion, however it was not speedy whatsoever like the pills are when I take them sublingually. Its also dangerous to shoot, and I don't just throw that around with every pill I literally almost lost my dominant hand to a missed shot of bupe it was like some shoved a tennis ball under the skin on top of my hand.

I had to go to an outpatient rehabilitation class and I honestly had to call my mother to drive me (not because of the moped I have a car as well) and luckily the bars helped me stay calm and I just told them I took a handful of Tylenol PMs instead of regulars, which they believed.

Hope this helps.


Whoever was talking about shooting subutex with dope don't do it. I can wait usually I try 6 hours to be safe when I was using heavily to take Bupe, but to do a shot mixed with dope or right after would DEFINITELY ruin your day in horrible horrible ways. Thats like saying

"Hey man do you wanna waste our money on smack and then shoot ourselves up with withdrawal juice? "

 

[Captain.Heroin]

On a nerdy note, My copies of PHIKAL and THIKAL just arrived!

That's sweet! I want a copy of these books so bad.

 

[jamesBrown]

That's sweet! I want a copy of these books so bad.

arent those books very informative on how to synthesize certain Phenethylamines? I think my friend had that first one, and he tried to synthesize something and lets just say it didnt work out to well.

I dont think he had any proper supplies or equipment. He was also probably on a large daily dose of alprazolam.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

arent those books very informative on how to synthesize certain Phenethylamines? I think my friend had that first one, and he tried to synthesize something and lets just say it didnt work out to well.

I dont think he had any proper supplies or equipment. He was also probably on a large daily dose of alprazolam.

Well, to be honest there's basic information in them about that, but if you're not well versed in chemistry you definitely shouldn't try doing it.

Furthermore, when you produce RC's, you want to test for purity, and if you don't have the ability to do that, I would forget trying to use the information in those books to produce psychedelics.

It just sounds to me like your friend was inequipt to do it.

 

[baschoen]

I find this thread a little hard to keep up with sometimes .... LOL ... can anyone tell me what my experience might be like jumping from 4mg of sub while being in the hospital for IP detox. I have been reading that the withdrawls from sub can last upwards of 7-10 days, but the hospitals I talk to have been saying 3-5 days. I wish I could switch to a shorter acting opiate and then go into detox but there is no way my doc will go for that.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I went to a detox center earlier this summer and went from 32mg of Subs and 20- 40mg alprazolam to 0 in 5 days and then spent 22 days without a fucking thing, well almost the first 3 I was weening of Temerz and Xanies so I had 7.5 temazepams for 3 nites and tranxene for 3 nites, after which I was put on trazadone first then remeron, then ramelton and then nothing. Luckily I'm back on Subs, Hydroxyzine, and Temerz. I smoked pot twice and drank every night. It was actually a decent experience the World Cup was on so all I did was puke, shit, seizure, drink and watch soccer.Anyways.

When I was clean I realized I could finally truly test the myth of the suboxone low mg/mcg shots. At 26 days i shot maybe 1mg of Subs felt a VERY, VERY SUBTLE rush and got pissed rode my moped to my friends and picked up 2 2mg Xanax which I ate instantly in my frustration. This took, oh maybe 10 minutes. As soon I swallowed those bars the bupe hit me and FUCKED ME UP. I honestly turned down free heroin for bupe at this point I could buy subs off the street (this was before the films) and split that terrible fucking taste into pieces and get HIGH. Like many have said though the rush is subtle if ANY at all, it takes a minute, and isn't really like other opiate highs in my opinion, however it was not speedy whatsoever like the pills are when I take them sublingually. Its also dangerous to shoot, and I don't just throw that around with every pill I literally almost lost my dominant hand to a missed shot of bupe it was like some shoved a tennis ball under the skin on top of my hand.

I had to go to an outpatient rehabilitation class and I honestly had to call my mother to drive me (not because of the moped I have a car as well) and luckily the bars helped me stay calm and I just told them I took a handful of Tylenol PMs instead of regulars, which they believed.

Hope this helps.


Whoever was talking about shooting subutex with dope don't do it. I can wait usually I try 6 hours to be safe when I was using heavily to take Bupe, but to do a shot mixed with dope or right after would DEFINITELY ruin your day in horrible horrible ways. Thats like saying

"Hey man do you wanna waste our money on smack and then shoot ourselves up with withdrawal juice? "

You are correct in saying that the effects of IV buprenorphine take a minute or two to begin, and you should be peaking by 5-10 minutes into it.

I find this thread a little hard to keep up with sometimes .... LOL ... can anyone tell me what my experience might be like jumping from 4mg of sub while being in the hospital for IP detox. I have been reading that the withdrawls from sub can last upwards of 7-10 days, but the hospitals I talk to have been saying 3-5 days. I wish I could switch to a shorter acting opiate and then go into detox but there is no way my doc will go for that.

It'll probably last 2 weeks if not longer. This is what I've heard from other people, I can't guarantee anything but that's what the general consensus is.

 

[jamesBrown]

I find this thread a little hard to keep up with sometimes .... LOL ... can anyone tell me what my experience might be like jumping from 4mg of sub while being in the hospital for IP detox. I have been reading that the withdrawls from sub can last upwards of 7-10 days, but the hospitals I talk to have been saying 3-5 days. I wish I could switch to a shorter acting opiate and then go into detox but there is no way my doc will go for that.

4 mg's of suboxone is quite a high dose, and an especially high dose to jump off of. To be completely honest, if you quit at 4mg's you would have fairly severe WD symptoms that could last anywhere from a couple weeks to a few months. And the PAWS could last indefinitely.

I think you should lower your dose to about 0.5mg's or less if possible and stay at that for atleast a couple weeks, and then jump off. The difference in WD symptoms would be huge. You may not even get any noticeable WD symptoms at that low of a dose. I know that I was able to take 0.5mg doses daily and could stop using anytime I wanted and did many times. In fact, I stopped like a month and a half ago and still have had no WD symptoms.

When it comes to suboxone, be very carefull when listening to doctors advice. they dont seem to understand much about this drug. Anyone who tells you that you can jump off of a 4mg daily sub dose with only a few days of WD is CRAZY. I guarantee that. If you read about this very subject in BL(because it has been discussed extensively) you will see all these people who jumped off at doses similar to yours and had to go through a long drawn out hellish WD period. Some people claimed that they had WD symptoms for over a year even. It all depends on the person and the situation, but I can guarantee you that jumpin off at 4mg's is a very poor decision, no matter what any doctor says.

 

[baschoen]

Double posted by accident. Can anyone show me to some medical reports that will say this so I can show my father and my doctor. All these hospitals are telling my dad that jumping off at 4mg will be OK and that it will only take 3-5 days to get over withdrawals, I talked to a woman yesterday that said they detox people off all levels of suboxone and it usually takes 5 days, I wanted to say ru nuts, but I'm not the one that deals with addicted people everyday they are. I know they are wrong but they won't listen to me when I tell them this. I already make myself so anxious about all of this that Im sure the withdrawal will last longer for me because of my already high level of anxiety.

I already had issues going down from 4mgs to 2mgs. Maybe it was just to large of a jump. For whatever reason suboxone doesn't last as long for me I have always needed to dose twice daily to keep the withdrawal away no matter what level I was at. When I got down to 2mg I was dosing once a day and my level of anxiety was unbearable. Maybe I just jumped down too much and should have tried 1mg at night and 2mg during the day. I just want off this shit as soon as possible so I can move on with my life. The slow taper down to .5mgs is going to take way too long and cause way too much pain.

 

[jamesBrown]

this thread is tough to keep up with ... LOL ... does anyone have any experience with inpatient suboxone detox/withdrawal. The hospitals I have talked to have said 3-5 days, but everything I read online says it will take anywhere from 7-10 days. I wish I could switch over to a short acting opiate and then go through detox but there is NO WAY my doctor would go for that. Both my doctors (my sub one and my psychiatrist) hate that I go online and read about this stuff. Sometimes it calms me down sometimes it makes me crazy. I guess its just the addict in me that needs instant gratification with everything. If anyone can give me any advice about getting off this stuff it would be greatly appreciated.

read my post above

and also look through the previous suboxone megathreads. there is more than enough information in there that will help you quit subs MUCH easier.

If you need help finding the threads, ask a moderator, im kinda tired and in a lot of pain so i really dont feel like searching for the link etc..sry

 

[Captain.Heroin]

4 mg's of suboxone is quite a high dose, and an especially high dose to jump off of. To be completely honest, if you quit at 4mg's you would have fairly severe WD symptoms that could last anywhere from a couple weeks to a few months. And the PAWS could last indefinitely.

I think you should lower your dose to about 0.5mg's or less if possible and stay at that for atleast a couple weeks, and then jump off. The difference in WD symptoms would be huge. You may not even get any noticeable WD symptoms at that low of a dose. I know that I was able to take 0.5mg doses daily and could stop using anytime I wanted and did many times. In fact, I stopped like a month and a half ago and still have had no WD symptoms.

When it comes to suboxone, be very carefull when listening to doctors advice. they dont seem to understand much about this drug. Anyone who tells you that you can jump off of a 4mg daily sub dose with only a few days of WD is CRAZY. I guarantee that. If you read about this very subject in BL(because it has been discussed extensively) you will see all these people who jumped off at doses similar to yours and had to go through a long drawn out hellish WD period. Some people claimed that they had WD symptoms for over a year even. It all depends on the person and the situation, but I can guarantee you that jumpin off at 4mg's is a very poor decision, no matter what any doctor says.

Yeah most doctors know nothing about withdrawal. They often say things like you can just stop taking benzos, or you can taper off in a week or two. They will also say you can stop taking SSRI's over the course of 2-3 days max, and you'll end up with SSRI discontinuation syndrome.

Doctors are really horrible at tapering people off of their medications correctly. At least, some/most are. There are probably doctors out there who are much more informed.

this thread is tough to keep up with ... LOL ... does anyone have any experience with inpatient suboxone detox/withdrawal. The hospitals I have talked to have said 3-5 days, but everything I read online says it will take anywhere from 7-10 days. I wish I could switch over to a short acting opiate and then go through detox but there is NO WAY my doctor would go for that. Both my doctors (my sub one and my psychiatrist) hate that I go online and read about this stuff. Sometimes it calms me down sometimes it makes me crazy. I guess its just the addict in me that needs instant gratification with everything. If anyone can give me any advice about getting off this stuff it would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry I'm still on Suboxone, I've never gone to rehab.

 

[caseface99]

arent those books very informative on how to synthesize certain Phenethylamines? I think my friend had that first one, and he tried to synthesize something and lets just say it didnt work out to well.

I dont think he had any proper supplies or equipment. He was also probably on a large daily dose of alprazolam.

Phikal is about phenethylamines and Thikal is about tryptamines. Each book also contains a part one which is an autobiographical style story. The chemistry sections do include the synthesis process for all of the chemicals mentioned, but lets just say they aren't put in lamens terms. Along with the synthesis however it also includes qualitataive comments that talk about whether the chemical is active, at what dose, what the effects are like and for certain more well known chemicals like LSD it discusses analogues and research briefly.

*scuttles over to PD as to not clutter OD with psychedelic goodness "


On another note, I am not sure if it is because i just started on the strips or what but jumping down from 1mg to half a mg gave me MUCH less withdrawal than i was expecting. I took 1mg every day for a month, feeling like shit already before i fell asleep every day. Yesterday i took 1/2mg and fell asleep feeling surprisingly normal, but went back to feeling shitty when i woke up. Interesting. I was expecting double the withdrawal, not half of it...? It must be because with the strips you end up absorbing the full dose, but then why didn't i feel normal the 2 days i took 1mg with the strips after a month of feeling shitting with 1mg of the pills?

Not to mention less withdrawal throughout the day then with the pills/1mg. It MUST be from switching to the strips, meaning i just took a step back, but at least my dose is accurate now. The withdrawal from 1mg with the strips being the same as 1mg with the pills must be a fluke? I don't know. im about to take todays dose of .5mgs so ill see what happens.


Well thats a downfall to the strips, it just got stuck on the back of my teeth/slightly on the inner gums. Im sure most of it still absorbed but probably only as much as absorbed when i would take the pills. I get an unusually large amount of saliva build up when dissolving sub in my mouth and i can't imagine nearly all of the sub being absorbed with it floating around in all that spit. >.< I guess i need to be more careful to place it under my tongue. But on a positive note if i go back to feeling the same shitty withdrawal i have for the last month then i know that switching to the strips was the cause of feeling normal even after dropping .5mgs.