Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

[Captain.Heroin]

^ Thats weird that you claim to feel no effects with tramadol on its own.. But its true Captain; Bupe + Trams = good synergy and good feeling energy

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel it on its own either, I took it with hydrocodone and oxycodone, and there was definite synergism (though it was hard to actually be able to put my finger on what it did/does).

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

^ Thats weird that you claim to feel no effects with tramadol on its own.. But its true Captain; Bupe + Trams = good synergy and good feeling energy

I've tried tramadol while im on subs and all i could feel were the snri effects no opiate like effects at all.

 

[Falcon0r]

I never really liked tramadol enough to take it more than the first time I tried it, so I don't know what it's like with buprenorphine. However I get plenty of a high out of buprenorphine, hence why I'm not too interested in finding out how the combo you all are praising really is (for myself, as you all obviously like it).

I definitely like a mild dose of a benzo, or even hydroxyzine with buprenorphine.

I see you say frequently that you get high off of bupe. I know you shoot it and then either snort some or take it sublingually, I forgot. Are you on bupe for opiate addiction management? Like are you actually a patient on a bupe program? I have been a patient for a few months now and can't understand how someone who takes bupe every day, or even ever other day regularly can get high from it. I haven't gotten a buzz from bupe since the 2nd day of my program at 16mg/day.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

I see you say frequently that you get high off of bupe. I know you shoot it and then either snort some or take it sublingually, I forgot. Are you on bupe for opiate addiction management? Like are you actually a patient on a bupe program? I have been a patient for a few months now and can't understand how someone who takes bupe every day, or even ever other day regularly can get high from it. I haven't gotten a buzz from bupe since the 2nd day of my program at 16mg/day.

CH i hope you dont mind me answering this for you because I know your how you take your bupe.

1st of all less is more with bupe.. the lower the dose your on the lower your opiate tolerance is gonna be. so the higher you'll get off of bupe. im prescribed 16mg a day but ive worked my way down to 2-4mg -.5mg-1mg 4X a day and i can say it works much better and my opiate tollerance has dropped since ive been at this dose for a while BTW i snort my subs.

Well with captain heroin he has managed to lower his dose all the way down to .25mg IV 4X a day.. so since his opiate tolerance has gone down so far from being on such a low dose for so long. he gets a high when he takes his low dose of bupe.

It takes time to lower your dose and let your tolerance drop down to your dose that your taking. take it slow and you wont feel w/d's it. I've been on subs for 2 years and its taken me about 6months to drop from 16mg to where im at now. and im comfortable at the low dose im at now. and some time's i even feel a high or a "releif" feeling when I dose my bupe.


Edit: When CH see's this he'll be able to explain it a lot better than I can. I'm not too good at explaining things like this. He is very good at explaining things. Especially about bupe.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I see you say frequently that you get high off of bupe. I know you shoot it and then either snort some or take it sublingually, I forgot. Are you on bupe for opiate addiction management? Like are you actually a patient on a bupe program? I have been a patient for a few months now and can't understand how someone who takes bupe every day, or even ever other day regularly can get high from it. I haven't gotten a buzz from bupe since the 2nd day of my program at 16mg/day.

I don't snort Suboxone at all. And I rarely take it sublingually (I do sometimes), I just mainly stick to IVing it.

I am on buprenorphine however I wouldn't say it's for "opiate addiction management" because I'm no longer addicted to opiates. I no longer have cravings, no longer would use heroin even if it was free and right in front of me, and I have such a low tolerance it doesn't feel bad to go a long time without buprenorphine. I would say it's for "maintenance" if anything, plus it's to keep my mind and body away from heroin (for sure) long enough to ensure I never end up using it again. If I quit using buprenorphine as a maintenance drug before I am ready to, I can't really ensure that I'm going to never relapse again (whereas if I'm given as much time as I need on buprenorphine, I will pretty much know I won't relapse).

By the way - to get high on buprenorphine, you want to have a low opiate tolerance. 16mg is a lot to take in one day (for someone with a low opiate tolerance - it's not unheard of for those with a high opiate tolerance). I use 0.16mg at a time (1/100th of your daily dose) to get high.

I actually use buprenorphine 4 to 6 times per day and I get high every time, I've found that having an opiate tolerance limits the euphoric nature of buprenorphine though.

CH i hope you dont mind me answering this for you because I know your how you take your bupe.

haha yeah it's no problem at all man. I can tell you know whats up.

1st of all less is more with bupe.. the lower the dose your on the lower your opiate tolerance is gonna be. so the higher you'll get off of bupe. im prescribed 16mg a day but ive worked my way down to 2-4mg -.5mg-1mg 4X a day and i can say it works much better and my opiate tollerance has dropped since ive been at this dose for a while BTW i snort my subs.

Well with captain heroin he has managed to lower his dose all the way down to .25mg IV 4X a day.. so since his opiate tolerance has gone down so far from being on such a low dose for so long. he gets a high when he takes his low dose of bupe.

Actually I'm at 0.16mg 4x/day (sometimes up to 6 times per day if I'm awake the whole 24 hours), plus I'm about to micron filter the next batch of solution, so I'm about to taper down even further (to 0.15mg/dose, somewhere around there. Each step down for me is going 10mcg down, or 0.01mg at a time.)

Not only do I get "a high" I also get a rush like I was shooting dilaudid (except obviously not as good as shooting dilaudid, a bit weaker and more synthetic feeling but it's there). To be honest I was surprised - when I was first coming down off of heroin I didn't get a high nor a rush out of Suboxone (even if I was IVing 2mg at a time - so wasteful now that I think of it), so when I tapered down and started getting high it was really great.

It takes time to lower your dose and let your tolerance drop down to your dose that your taking. take it slow and you wont feel w/d's it. I've been on subs for 2 years and its taken me about 6months to drop from 16mg to where im at now. and im comfortable at the low dose im at now. and some time's i even feel a high or a "releif" feeling when I dose my bupe.

Edit: When CH see's this he'll be able to explain it a lot better than I can. I'm not too good at explaining things like this. He is very good at explaining things. Especially about bupe.

Hahaha, you got it pretty much. I've been on Suboxone for 1 and a half years to 2 years (probably closer to 18 months I just don't know exactly how long), and it took me at least half a year to an entire year to get my opiate tolerance back down. The time it takes to lower your opiate tolerance might seem like a long time but once you get there you'll be a lot happier (I was).

But overall you did a good job answering the question. :D

Is there a way for me to taper off bupe so that I have no physical w/d symptoms at all?

Well it depends, I'm not 100% sure. I theorize it's possible but it could take some time (some is an understatement).

I've been trying cold turkey, it's not that bad and if you put me in a locked room I would be able to handle it (like mild flu), but the thought of doing this for another 2 weeks is psychologically deterring me from doing it.

As I mentioned earlier, I take 8 mg every 3-5 days, and I know I'm a pussy for complaining about withdrawals from such a low amount but I fucking hate them.

I would try taking 6mg every 3-5 days, and then adjust to that. The next step would be to go to 4mg every 3-5 days, then 2mg. After getting to 2mg you could try jumping off from there.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Taper - 150mcg

mg | mL = mg/mL
10 unit dose = mcg (1000 mcg to 1mg)

24mg | 15mL = 1.6mg/mL
10 unit dose = 160mcg

22mg | 14.666...mL = 1.5mg/mL
10 unit dose = 150mcg

I am about to make 1.5mg/mL solution, just about to finish off the 1.6mg/mL solution (it was probably a bit more concentrated than I intended).

Gotta love micron filters. I'll have to write a review for the IV Product Review thread.

 

[Trigeminal]

I would try taking 6mg every 3-5 days, and then adjust to that. The next step would be to go to 4mg every 3-5 days, then 2mg. After getting to 2mg you could try jumping off from there.

Going to do it this way -- I took ~2 mg a couple hours ago and feel fine (actually, somewhat buzzed which is unusual cause I really don't usually feel even 8 mg that much).

It's weird because I don't even start getting any unpleasant symptoms until Day 4.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Going to do it this way -- I took ~2 mg a couple hours ago and feel fine (actually, somewhat buzzed which is unusual cause I really don't usually feel even 8 mg that much).

It's weird because I don't even start getting any unpleasant symptoms until Day 4.

A smaller dose is typically better than a larger one. Good to know you're tapering a bit lower over time. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Falcon0r]

Thank you for the information, both of you. That is very eye opening to me. I didn't understand how someone who doses bupe multiple times a day, no matter the dose, can actually get high on it.

To me, that is like someone who is on Vicodin 5/500s for back pain who takes their 1 vicodin every 6 hours or something. AT FIRST they get high, but they slowly build a tolerance. You're telling me that you will never build up a tolerance at the small dose you're at, and that you will always get high from it? Crazy. I don't understand that still.

It would be a lot of work for me to lower my bupe intake that much, and a lot of time mostly. I think I'd rather do what I'm doing now. Stay on them with sporadic, random doses that keep me feeling healthy and good and cheat once in a while with some pain killers on the side.

 

[tiimmmmmyyy]

You're telling me that you will never build up a tolerance at the small dose you're at, and that you will always get high from it? Crazy. I don't understand that still.

Please do explain, CH. I'm a biochem major; be detailed. Clearly the mechanism of action is different than vicodin for a tolerance to the bupe to not build up. But why would I (8mg/d) not get high if I take 5x's my dose?

 

[Pegasus]

^It is strange, I don't understand it either. I experienced it as well when I tapered off bupe. I fell in love with the drug again once I started using it in the sub 1mg range. The antidepressant qualities of bupe come within this dose range, IME.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thank you for the information, both of you. That is very eye opening to me. I didn't understand how someone who doses bupe multiple times a day, no matter the dose, can actually get high on it.

To me, that is like someone who is on Vicodin 5/500s for back pain who takes their 1 vicodin every 6 hours or something. AT FIRST they get high, but they slowly build a tolerance. You're telling me that you will never build up a tolerance at the small dose you're at, and that you will always get high from it? Crazy. I don't understand that still.

Surprisingly yes, I never build up a tolerance to it. At least not at the rate I'm going at it.

Partial agonists don't build tolerance like full agonists do. I think, specifically, buprenorphine is not a mu subtype 2 agonist like other opiates are (heroin, morphine, vicodin as you used as an example, etc) - or, if buprenorphine is an agonist at the mu subtype 2 receptor, then it doesn't fully agonize it to the point where physical tolerance is inevitable.

It would be a lot of work for me to lower my bupe intake that much, and a lot of time mostly. I think I'd rather do what I'm doing now. Stay on them with sporadic, random doses that keep me feeling healthy and good and cheat once in a while with some pain killers on the side.

Sure, buprenorphine has different uses (maintenance, pain killer, recreational drug, etc) so whatever you feel comfortable is good.

How buprenorphine works differently for different people, and opiate tolerance has a lot to do with it.

Please do explain, CH. I'm a biochem major; be detailed. Clearly the mechanism of action is different than vicodin for a tolerance to the bupe to not build up. But why would I (8mg/d) not get high if I take 5x's my dose?

Because buprenorphine is a better mu-agonist when it is metabolized into nor-buprenorphine. At high doses, your mu-agonist receptors are saturated with buprenorphine before any of it gets to metabolize.

At a lower dose, you have enough mu-agonist receptors left open in order for the nor-buprenorphine to take effect.

This is how a lower dose of buprenorphine will be a better high than a higher dose of it.

When you have an opiate tolerance, you would need so much buprenorphine to get high that you wouldn't have any room left for nor-buprenorphine, hence why it takes time to lower your opiate tolerance in order to get high with buprenorphine.

Hope that makes sense.

^It is strange, I don't understand it either. I experienced it as well when I tapered off bupe. I fell in love with the drug again once I started using it in the sub 1mg range. The antidepressant qualities of bupe come within this dose range, IME.

Exactly.

It was a difficult concept for me to understand at first. When I eventually got to the point where I started getting high on buprenorphine it finally made sense to me though.

I have talked to a lot of people who used buprenorphine for the long term, and not everyone will get high with buprenorphine. However I have heard from enough people to think that in general a fair amount of people who have a limited-enough opiate history (long-term use of high potency opiates may render buprenorphine an ineffective 'high' for you)

 

[tiimmmmmyyy]

Makes sense. I just haven't studied the properties of partial agonists yet. I would just expect one to develop a tolerance to nor-bup at this low norbup:bup ratio anyways.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Makes sense. I just haven't studied the properties of partial agonists yet. I would just expect one to develop a tolerance to nor-bup at this low norbup:bup ratio anyways.

Well actually I think it has to do with the low dose. There was a study someone cited on this website where people with treatment-resistant depression took 5mg oxycodone orally once per day, and not only achieved antidepressant effects, also had minimal side effects and no problems with tolerance.

I think when you're on a bare minimum dose of an opiate, you're less likely to grow a tolerance. That's how buprenorphine maintenance is best utilized, when you take just enough to feel much better.

 

[tiimmmmmyyy]

Noted, CH. We are not chasing this euphoria as we used to. Minimal dosages suffice.


Also, to those with organic chemistry backgrounds. What's up with the cyclopropane in buprenorphine? We all know how thermodynamically unstable that ring strain is.

 

[rolls_]

treatment-resistant depression took 5mg oxycodone orally once per day, and not only achieved antidepressant effects, also had minimal side effects and no problems with tolerance. COLOR]

That is what I am also trialling suboxone to do, unofficially as I am technically using it to get off opiates but I have spoken to my doctor and he agrees that it should help with depression and anxiety which it certainly does seem to.

 

[Oxymorphone]

After about a week and a half of cocaine, oxycodone, a lot of heroin, and now some hydromorphone and fentanyl tonight I am ready to get back on my regular suboxone routine. Aside from a possible cocaine overdose it really isn't a huge set back assuming no one close to me finds out and I can get back on maintenance which I think I can. It was a fun little binge, but I can't waste more money and if I take it further I will screw my life up.

Now I have a good stockpile of IV supplies including some 3ml luer lock syringes and 1cc luer slip syringes with some 22 and 25 gauge needles from the exchange to go along with my 10 10ml luer lock syringes I will be using to prepare vials of suboxone. After a mistake in my micron filter order I am about to order some wheel filters and storage vials to make my daily suboxone dose easy- it will be a .1mg bupe in every .1CC of solution for super easy dosing. I expect i will have to start at a higher bupe dosage coming off all this stuff. I did break it up with 2-3 days of not using and taking suboxone in between so it wasn't an all out binge.

I'm not sure what dose of bupe I will have to go back on tomorrow to hold me but I will dose up gradually and we'll see. I don't know what's hitting me but this is my first time with fentanyl and I just stuck on a 50mcg/hr patch on my arm instead of trying to fuck with extracting anything since this type is nearly impossible to and fentanyl is dangerous stuff.

So anyway back to bupe and vials and stuff, if I go with the presealed vials how does filling and then taking doses out of them work while keeping the solution sterile and bacteria free? What about the non sealed media bottles that need caps? The site has many different kinds of caps and I'm not sure which is best. I asked this in another thread I think, I'll check if it was answered.

 

[Falcon0r]

I think when you're on a bare minimum dose of an opiate, you're less likely to grow a tolerance. That's how buprenorphine maintenance is best utilized, when you take just enough to feel much better.

So, all variables aside and just a very general opinion (YOUR opinion), what is the "ideal" bupe dose taken via insufflation (50% bioavailability) to stay at the level where nor-bupe can be received and still "hold you down"? I know that EVERYONE will be very different, but I don't have a clue as far as area.

After about a week and a half of cocaine, oxycodone, a lot of heroin, and now some hydromorphone and fentanyl tonight I am ready to get back on my regular suboxone routine. Aside from a possible cocaine overdose it really isn't a huge set back assuming no one close to me finds out and I can get back on maintenance which I think I can. It was a fun little binge, but I can't waste more money and if I take it further I will screw my life up.

Now I have a good stockpile of IV supplies including some 3ml luer lock syringes and 1cc luer slip syringes with some 22 and 25 gauge needles from the exchange to go along with my 10 10ml luer lock syringes I will be using to prepare vials of suboxone. After a mistake in my micron filter order I am about to order some wheel filters and storage vials to make my daily suboxone dose easy- it will be a .1mg bupe in every .1CC of solution for super easy dosing. I expect i will have to start at a higher bupe dosage coming off all this stuff. I did break it up with 2-3 days of not using and taking suboxone in between so it wasn't an all out binge.

I'm not sure what dose of bupe I will have to go back on tomorrow to hold me but I will dose up gradually and we'll see. I don't know what's hitting me but this is my first time with fentanyl and I just stuck on a 50mcg/hr patch on my arm instead of trying to fuck with extracting anything since this type is nearly impossible to and fentanyl is dangerous stuff.

So anyway back to bupe and vials and stuff, if I go with the presealed vials how does filling and then taking doses out of them work while keeping the solution sterile and bacteria free? What about the non sealed media bottles that need caps? The site has many different kinds of caps and I'm not sure which is best. I asked this in another thread I think, I'll check if it was answered.

Sounds like your little vacation got bigger than you originally expected! Glad to see you are keeping yourself in line and getting back on bupe. I don't have any specific advice for you starting your IV bupe maintenance other than be careful with your first dose, don't be afraid to take too little because you can always add more.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

How to micron filter Suboxone (or any other drug) for IV

You can use as much water and as many Suboxone tablets as you'd like, but 24mg/15mL = 1.6mg/mL. This solution will yield 0.16mg for every 10 units.

What you will need (everything other than the Suboxone tablets can be procured from gpzservices.com - though I got my 18G needle tips and rubbing alcohol pads elsewhere):

• Whatman 0.2 micron filter
• Bacteriostatic water vial, 30 mL
• 20 CC luer lock syringe
• 18G needle tip
• 3 Suboxone tablets
• media bottle
• rubbing alcohol pad

What you do:

1. After washing your hands thoroughly, boil the media bottle for at least 10 minutes, and sterilize the rubber top of the bacteriostatic water vial.
2. Attach 18G needle (any gauge will do, the larger the quicker) and draw back 15 CC into the syringe. Pull the bacteriostatic water vial off of the needle. You will have to do this as the plunger of the syringe will be pressurized to return back to 0 CC if you don't hold onto it as you're pulling the vial off of the needle.
   [*]Pull the syringe plunger out and back load the Suboxone tablets. Replace the plunger, and push the air out of the syringe. Once the air is out of the syringe, you can replace the needle tip with the micron filter.
3. Shake the syringe to dissolve the tablets. Align the micron filter over the mouth of the media bottle, and push the plunger down. The micron filter will fit securely into the mouth of the media bottle (if you use the same equipment I do), but be careful of it getting stuck (have pliers to remove the filter if it gets stuck).
4. Re-cap the media bottle with your sterile solution, and put away the used micron filter, used syringe, and needle tip. Enjoy!

The above bolded step is incorrect; I notice if you don't put the micron filter on before taking the plunger out, water will just fall out the tip of the syringe.

I'll create new, updated, final steps in a second.

 

[HdoubleODeezy]

So, all variables aside and just a very general opinion (YOUR opinion), what is the "ideal" bupe dose taken via insufflation (50% bioavailability) to stay at the level where nor-bupe can be received and still "hold you down"? I know that EVERYONE will be very different, but I don't have a clue as far as area.

.

.5mg-1mg

Thats my dose 4X daily and i feel that it's the most effective dose via insufflation.