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H&R Moderators: streaM Freak
Suboxone; always withdrawing?
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4DQSAR
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Be aware the the discoverers of buprenorphine trialled it only for 7-14 days i.e. to seperate the physical dependence and psychological addiction issues.
But that isn't a very profitable product, is it?
I CAN see the sense in longer-term use on the basis that someone stabalized on buprenorphine will NOT go into AWS if they take another opioid, but the Ki of buprenorphine is more or less that of fentanyl (and naloxone) so they compete thus no high thus no point in thinking one can become a chipper.
But once someone pointed out that buprenorphine would give rise to the next generation of 'pill mills', it makes sense. AFAIK only buprenorphine and methadone QD are exempted from the DEA crackdown.
I think the stuff dreadful but so many people seem to like it - no accounting for taste, I suppose. So we WILL see people selling street bupe.
Wasn't the film 'Reindeer Spotting' about dependent buprnorphine users? Whacking up pills NEVER ends well.
But that isn't a very profitable product, is it?
I CAN see the sense in longer-term use on the basis that someone stabalized on buprenorphine will NOT go into AWS if they take another opioid, but the Ki of buprenorphine is more or less that of fentanyl (and naloxone) so they compete thus no high thus no point in thinking one can become a chipper.
But once someone pointed out that buprenorphine would give rise to the next generation of 'pill mills', it makes sense. AFAIK only buprenorphine and methadone QD are exempted from the DEA crackdown.
I think the stuff dreadful but so many people seem to like it - no accounting for taste, I suppose. So we WILL see people selling street bupe.
Wasn't the film 'Reindeer Spotting' about dependent buprnorphine users? Whacking up pills NEVER ends well.
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notsmokeymcpot42088
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But that isn't a very profitable product, is it?
I CAN see the sense in longer-term use on the basis that someone stabalized on buprenorphine will NOT go into AWS if they take another opioid, but the Ki of buprenorphine is more or less that of fentanyl (and naloxone) so they compete thus no high thus no point in thinking one can become a chipper.
(Echo'd as everyone should know that)
People always wonder why they can't get a good buzz on say hydrocodone 4 days after subs -- I think it is "Ever again" honestly, rule of thumb at least? Ki = binding affinity right?
I CAN see the sense in longer-term use on the basis that someone stabalized on buprenorphine will NOT go into AWS if they take another opioid, but the Ki of buprenorphine is more or less that of fentanyl (and naloxone) so they compete thus no high thus no point in thinking one can become a chipper.
(Echo'd as everyone should know that)
People always wonder why they can't get a good buzz on say hydrocodone 4 days after subs -- I think it is "Ever again" honestly, rule of thumb at least? Ki = binding affinity right?
4DQSAR
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Yep. EC50 can be more useful as it understands pharmoknietics (if it doesn't reach the brain, it can't bind) but Ki IS useful.
In this case we have a partial agonist (buprenorphine), a full agonists (fentanyl) and an antagonists (naloxone) all competing on equal terms for those juicy MOP receptors.
So no, bupernorphine will not send someone stabilized on the stuff into AWS, it will simply do nothing much.
It IS objectively funny that naloxone was added to bup as I even knew a French addict who still whacked them up! He said 'it feels a bit odd for 10 minutes, then it's just like the usual bup buzz'.
Again, I simply do not understand the attraction of the stuff but it isn't an awfully good analgesic and I only take my meds to hobble - not walk, just HOBBLE.
In this case we have a partial agonist (buprenorphine), a full agonists (fentanyl) and an antagonists (naloxone) all competing on equal terms for those juicy MOP receptors.
So no, bupernorphine will not send someone stabilized on the stuff into AWS, it will simply do nothing much.
It IS objectively funny that naloxone was added to bup as I even knew a French addict who still whacked them up! He said 'it feels a bit odd for 10 minutes, then it's just like the usual bup buzz'.
Again, I simply do not understand the attraction of the stuff but it isn't an awfully good analgesic and I only take my meds to hobble - not walk, just HOBBLE.
notsmokeymcpot42088
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^Oh jee in the US it was common practice to IV suboxone complete with naloxone. Knew a few ppl that did it daily --- against all advice from me.
"Street knowledge" is the naloxone amnt is low enough it has no effect. Still ppl will sometimes pay an extra 5 to get subutex. (Usually ppl that do not know that IME).
Is this not the case?
As I type this I realize it reads very much "I have a friend who'd like to know" --- lol I sware this one aint about me -- and if it was fck ya anyways. *But really its not*
"Street knowledge" is the naloxone amnt is low enough it has no effect. Still ppl will sometimes pay an extra 5 to get subutex. (Usually ppl that do not know that IME).
Is this not the case?
As I type this I realize it reads very much "I have a friend who'd like to know" --- lol I sware this one aint about me -- and if it was fck ya anyways. *But really its not*
I think it is absolutely hilarious that after this "opioid epidemic"(which is way worse now)
now all a pain patient or anyone addicted would have or can obtain for the most part is subs and fentanyl - naturally it dips into the streets or black market as the only readily available opioids/easier to access and alot cheaper than any real pharmacy grade oxycodone on the street, usually).
A motherfucker in any sort of physical or psychological distress in america can not even have a goddamn OTC codeine tablet, and good fucking luck finding the syrup(and if you do, a pharmacist will likely only sell you ONE 4floz bottle, then ask you to ask a doctor to get a note FOR SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVER THE COUNTER).
Shit you not it is easier to get psuedophedrine nowdays-and liquor, cigarettes, some kratom(plus that 70h capitalism pull to fuck you even more), AND of course SUBOXONE..so back to any random motherfucker in america, all you get is tylenol/ibuprofen, a gnarly fucked up suboxone addiction and then when everyone is ready to kill themselves it is off to the street to survive only to find it can kill you quicker.. but oh no look what their "epidemic" produces..our streets are packed with fentanyl and fake pills...killing us one by one,.. apple doesn't fall far from the tree(covid).
As unatural as this whole escapade has been...this nation has been showing a lot of true colors lately. If they want to help prevent tragedy or save millions of people they would sign ALOT more than just Ibogaine. They need over-the-counter codeine and hydrocodone or get hydrocodone and whatever oxy or opioid back onto prescription pads for the MANY ppl that need them.
People wonder why everyone is stretched out, pulling out gauges and shit.
Sorry for anyone that had to read through this but is the main reason I am fucking clean from subs, growing my own drugs and advocate psychedelics, . It's funny the government shut it down just to over prescribe subs, and fentanyl is so very synergistic with suboxone-you can feel the evil going on here.
now all a pain patient or anyone addicted would have or can obtain for the most part is subs and fentanyl - naturally it dips into the streets or black market as the only readily available opioids/easier to access and alot cheaper than any real pharmacy grade oxycodone on the street, usually).
A motherfucker in any sort of physical or psychological distress in america can not even have a goddamn OTC codeine tablet, and good fucking luck finding the syrup(and if you do, a pharmacist will likely only sell you ONE 4floz bottle, then ask you to ask a doctor to get a note FOR SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVER THE COUNTER).
Shit you not it is easier to get psuedophedrine nowdays-and liquor, cigarettes, some kratom(plus that 70h capitalism pull to fuck you even more), AND of course SUBOXONE..so back to any random motherfucker in america, all you get is tylenol/ibuprofen, a gnarly fucked up suboxone addiction and then when everyone is ready to kill themselves it is off to the street to survive only to find it can kill you quicker.. but oh no look what their "epidemic" produces..our streets are packed with fentanyl and fake pills...killing us one by one,.. apple doesn't fall far from the tree(covid).
As unatural as this whole escapade has been...this nation has been showing a lot of true colors lately. If they want to help prevent tragedy or save millions of people they would sign ALOT more than just Ibogaine. They need over-the-counter codeine and hydrocodone or get hydrocodone and whatever oxy or opioid back onto prescription pads for the MANY ppl that need them.
People wonder why everyone is stretched out, pulling out gauges and shit.
Sorry for anyone that had to read through this but is the main reason I am fucking clean from subs, growing my own drugs and advocate psychedelics, . It's funny the government shut it down just to over prescribe subs, and fentanyl is so very synergistic with suboxone-you can feel the evil going on here.
4DQSAR
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No - did you know that NOBODY is keeping track of the mortality rates among buprenorphine users? Every time I end up with a single (small) 2009 paper. We do not know how many it kills - but do we WANT to know? Long-term, bup will produce exactly the same dependence as a full agonist.
Methadone is termed 'liquid handcuffs' for a very good reason. You can't go anywhere because you have to be on the dot at YOUR clinic. Same with supervised consumption of buprenorphine. This isn't helping people, this is erecting barriers so people trying to get well are set up to fail. Again, 'frequent flyers' must earn far more than those who escape.
Except doctors who seem able to forge a second career if caught - use normies end up in the bin.
Methadone is termed 'liquid handcuffs' for a very good reason. You can't go anywhere because you have to be on the dot at YOUR clinic. Same with supervised consumption of buprenorphine. This isn't helping people, this is erecting barriers so people trying to get well are set up to fail. Again, 'frequent flyers' must earn far more than those who escape.
Except doctors who seem able to forge a second career if caught - use normies end up in the bin.
notsmokeymcpot42088
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This is a longshot theory but I am going to toss it out there
Any chance the cartels thought about "If they addicted to fentanyl and nitrazenes the sub won't help and we still have a captured market." and on some level it was a countermove to the high binding affinity of bupe?
more relevant question --- any reason to believe there would be an increased mortality rate in bupe users......in a vacuum -- er how do I word it; "If bupe was the only variable"?
( I did not sign up for toxicity of any kind, teeth bad news, little liver and kidney but pretty negligible - I missing anything big? )
Any chance the cartels thought about "If they addicted to fentanyl and nitrazenes the sub won't help and we still have a captured market." and on some level it was a countermove to the high binding affinity of bupe?
more relevant question --- any reason to believe there would be an increased mortality rate in bupe users......in a vacuum -- er how do I word it; "If bupe was the only variable"?
( I did not sign up for toxicity of any kind, teeth bad news, little liver and kidney but pretty negligible - I missing anything big? )
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4DQSAR
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No - I suggest they are simply the easiest synthetically. Someone posted ALL of the papers on the synthesis of carfentanil and the nitrazine on here, oddly.
BUT one thing we haven't seen through every purmutaion of the nitazene class is actually the most potent - but it's chiral so while x6000M as an analgesic in mice, it hasn't shown up. In fact I suspect there is also another chiral example and so far that hasn't shown up either.
Don't forget, it isn't really medicinal chemists who optimize a synthesis - 'enough' is enough. So I would be looking more at chemical engineers on these as while often overlooked, a ligand is pointless unless you CAN scale. That's why it's a whole different specialism.
Frankly, stainless steel scares me - because I can't SEE trouble coming. But such people do the fine calculations so know when a reaction is exothermic (for example). It IS a very different thing.
BUT one thing we haven't seen through every purmutaion of the nitazene class is actually the most potent - but it's chiral so while x6000M as an analgesic in mice, it hasn't shown up. In fact I suspect there is also another chiral example and so far that hasn't shown up either.
Don't forget, it isn't really medicinal chemists who optimize a synthesis - 'enough' is enough. So I would be looking more at chemical engineers on these as while often overlooked, a ligand is pointless unless you CAN scale. That's why it's a whole different specialism.
Frankly, stainless steel scares me - because I can't SEE trouble coming. But such people do the fine calculations so know when a reaction is exothermic (for example). It IS a very different thing.
notsmokeymcpot42088
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I was with ya until stainless steel - is that a metaphor? prolly not
Oh because of the reaction, or the temperature? Or something else I missed in there somewhere. (Sorry im so close to understanding a post in full lol)
ahh the exothermic welding -- HEY I GOT IT. ( I think ) 1/2 credit lol
I have enough swords and knives forgery (Learning how to forge? lol) has been recommended --- but yea that ish looks dangerous and everyone that does it has burned there hands horribly 1,000 times (hyberbole but ya know, the bomb maker missing fingers is a cliche for a reason)
Oh because of the reaction, or the temperature? Or something else I missed in there somewhere. (Sorry im so close to understanding a post in full lol)
ahh the exothermic welding -- HEY I GOT IT. ( I think ) 1/2 credit lol
I have enough swords and knives forgery (Learning how to forge? lol) has been recommended --- but yea that ish looks dangerous and everyone that does it has burned there hands horribly 1,000 times (hyberbole but ya know, the bomb maker missing fingers is a cliche for a reason)
4DQSAR
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EU Drug Market: Amphetamine — References | The European Union Drugs Agency (EUDA)
Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission (2022), National Wastewater Drug Monitoring Program – report 17, Commonwealth of Australia, Canberra.
I'm pretty sure some of those links contain lab-p0rn. Best way never to use speed - go see the 'cooks' because I KNOW that in the whole EU, ONE person is selling all the 'turn key' labs i.e. they fabricate from stainless steel (so no glassware) and essentially set it all up and cut; cut FAST. Every time it's beer barrels as reaction-vessels and dank, dirty and downright dodgy. The muppets who work this stuff are how we say, zo dom als het achtereind van een varken".
notsmokeymcpot42088
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So nah.... I was way off you meant the reaction-vessels; haha ah well took a stab at it. *rimshot* -- thats how ya learn
dumb as the backside of a pig? Must be more catchy in its own langauge
dumb as the backside of a pig? Must be more catchy in its own langauge
DeathIndustrial88
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I've been on buprenorphine for 10 years.
Sure you can still get high on full agonists. As long as your blood levels of bupe are low enough to offer open receptors for it to attach to,.
I actually liked buprenorphine in the beginning. With no tolerance, it does produce a "high" of sorts. It's almost like a "diet-tramadol/methadone" type buzz. Kinda stimulating, a little bit of a warmth & relaxation, makes me chatty & then after 2-4hrs fades into some nodding/sedating/lucid dreaming type "buzz:" But once you take it everyday & it builds up, you can say goodbye to that feeling.
I also find buprenorphine is insanely more sedating to me than every other opioid. I could stay awake all day & function on heroin, hydrocodone, tramadol, etc.. some times I'd need a little nap. But bupe keeps me tired as fuck all the time.
It's pain relief is subpar though. And I've come to realize that living on buprenorphine means constant headaches/migraines. It's a really shitty opioid.
The government is fine with people taking something as potent as fentanyl, as long as it doesn't give them any euphoria like heroin would. It's such hypocrisy.
Sure you can still get high on full agonists. As long as your blood levels of bupe are low enough to offer open receptors for it to attach to,.
I actually liked buprenorphine in the beginning. With no tolerance, it does produce a "high" of sorts. It's almost like a "diet-tramadol/methadone" type buzz. Kinda stimulating, a little bit of a warmth & relaxation, makes me chatty & then after 2-4hrs fades into some nodding/sedating/lucid dreaming type "buzz:" But once you take it everyday & it builds up, you can say goodbye to that feeling.
I also find buprenorphine is insanely more sedating to me than every other opioid. I could stay awake all day & function on heroin, hydrocodone, tramadol, etc.. some times I'd need a little nap. But bupe keeps me tired as fuck all the time.
It's pain relief is subpar though. And I've come to realize that living on buprenorphine means constant headaches/migraines. It's a really shitty opioid.
The government is fine with people taking something as potent as fentanyl, as long as it doesn't give them any euphoria like heroin would. It's such hypocrisy.
4DQSAR
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YMMV - I was trialled on buprenorphine for severe chronic pain but overwhelming anxiety and the resultant insomnia saw me have a few grand mal seizures and wind up in hospital.
@notsmokeymcpot42088 - I just got it <slaps palm on forehead>. The Harry Harrison series of juvinalia; NOW I get it. See, see how dumb I am!
@notsmokeymcpot42088 - I just got it <slaps palm on forehead>. The Harry Harrison series of juvinalia; NOW I get it. See, see how dumb I am!
DeathIndustrial88
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Was the bupe the cause of these seizures or something else? Or do you mean the bupe caused you anxiety & insomnia to the point where you had a seizure? That's crazy man. Glad you're still alive! Grand mals are pretty serious.