Queen Beat
Bluelighter
I see you enjoyed Stupid White Men, plazma.
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AADD Moderators: Tronica
Should we go to war with Iraq?
- Thread starter jakoz
- Start date
Samadhi
Bluelight Crew
No offense intended guys...my reaction to shock is laughter. Sorry about that, i'll make my posts less ambiguous.
I completely understand your point The_Fuel, i had family in poland during the rule of Stalin. I just didn't agree with your previous statement regarding the vote rigging in the USA being a conspiracy. I do however agree that one could compare Saddam Hussein with George Bush.
johnboy
Bluelight Crew
i can't resist
From The Guardian.
From The Guardian.
The_Fuel
Bluelighter
samadhi said:
I think i worded it wrong. What i meant to say was that i felt the whole vote rigging idea was a bit far fetched, i didn't actually believe that it was a conspiracy because i don't really believed it happened. (mis-use of the phrase conspiracy theory?)
But then again plazma has come up with some good arguements to say that it may have happened that way.....however I still have to question where this comes from (Stupid White Men by Mike Moore?) and then question his agenda.... but i don't know much about the book or the man so i cant fully judge on that and really have to take it at face value....
No need to apologise man.... its the freeking internet's fault
( soooo much easier to explain yourself in front of someone )I'm enjoying this discussion.... its definatly making me think...
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nezo
Bluelight Crew
talk talk talk....
the war has started....
the war has started....
johnboy
Bluelight Crew
nezo said:
so we're supoosed to stop talking? just shut up and take it?
Russ
Bluelighter
Yesterday, in the SMH, there was a story about what the citizens really thought of Saddam. They are looking forward to the end of his dictatorship.
Now that the war has started, I think they will welcome the "Liberation".
Blame the UN sanctions all you want for the children sick in the hospitals, but it is ultimately Saddams fault.
Now that it has started, I hope it is over very quickly.
And, I think George Dubbya jumped the gun on this, and Little Johnny is just on his knees giving G.W. a blow job.
Now that the war has started, I think they will welcome the "Liberation".
Blame the UN sanctions all you want for the children sick in the hospitals, but it is ultimately Saddams fault.
Now that it has started, I hope it is over very quickly.
And, I think George Dubbya jumped the gun on this, and Little Johnny is just on his knees giving G.W. a blow job.
nezo
Bluelight Crew
well not really, well, kinda
..my point is all this debate is moot - it won't affect , no, it has not affected the events leading up to this war.George was going to invade and dispose Saddam irrespective of what you, I or the rest of the world thinks.
onetwothreefour
Bluelight Crew
Queen Beat said:
sure, he's echoed its rhetoric, but what's wrong with that - the information is still factual. also, plaz left out the fact that four of the supreme court judges -who ruled on the case regarding the recount- had strong ties to the republican party and two were even employed by dubya at a later date. but there was no conflict of interest...no...
onetwothreefour
Bluelight Crew
sorry for the two posts in a row, but i've just watched the john howard speech...grr ![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
well, i have to say, he did "better" than i'd expected, and actually addressed a couple of thing which i would have expected him to ignore. pity he's a bigoted cunt who seems to lack any fucking spine of his own. anyway, onto his speech.
that iraq's weapons are "capable of causing death and destruction" - apart from the fact that there's very little proof that iraq actually have any/much of these weapons *anyway* (oh, and the nice little fact that if they do, they were most likely given to hussein by the american goverment in the mid to late eighties), well...most countries have weapons. i wish i had a brain that was actually capable of retaining statistics, as some people seem to be able to do, but i know america's supplies *far* outnumber what iraq are even suspected of having. but of course, that's irrelevant - it's not as if the democratically elected intellectual dubya would go and invade anyone or anything silly like that!!
not that it's the worst thing, but it was pretty obvious that howard was spilling propagandic "patriotic" bullshit all through his speech (quite reminiscent of the oh-so-amusing american propaganda videos from world war ii and vietnam. except they're not so funny now, are they), such as "can *anyone doubt," "does *any australian* seriously suggest," and "that will never be the 'australian way'". wow, apparently i'm not a true australian anymore 'cos i disagree with what's going on.
"australia is a western country, with western values, nothing will or should change that," said howard. now, does this sound like some really thinly-veiled racism? to me, it's a really fucking horrible statement - what, just because most western countries hold different ideals and customs to the "east" (wow, that's not a broad generalisation is it?!), we're somehow better. and i'm not suggesting that i agree with saddam's rule, but fuck me if we can somehow claim to know better than an entire half of the world. fuck.
in regards to the legalities of the attack (and god would i be happy if after all this bullshit dubya, blair, howard et al were all trialled for war crimes. though, i don't know how that all works, so i really have no idea if it even *could* happen!), howard said that everything would be cool (well, so to speak...i forget his exact words) "on condition that iraq gave up their weapons of mass destruction...clearly we all know this hasn't happened". and why hasn't that happened...oh yeah, the us forced the un weapons inspectors to leave the country because they were ready to invade. sorry about that and all :/
in regards to critics of the war, he said that "they know and admit that weapons inspectors only returned to iraq because of the pressure of the american military build-up," but of course, he doesn't mention *why* they originally left, in 1998 (not to return until this year). actually, us ambassador to the un, peter burleigh reccommended that the inspectors leave the country due to air strikes that were planned. so you know...it was *obviously* the *un*'s fault that inspections had ceased...right. btw, reference for this is [rai, m (2002) war plan iraq, ten reasons against war on iraq, verso, london].
"apparently," again about critics of the war, "they believe that a quarter of a million american, british and indeed australian troops should stay in the desert indefinitely, doing nothing". wow, this argument is so flawed that i almost feel as if i'm missing something. unfortunately, i'm pretty sure this is about it. what the fuck kind of reason (and yeah i know it's not the main, probably not even a large reason for war, but fuck, by putting this in his speech, it obviously carries some weight) is this for war? 'oh, our soldiers are kinda bored...really not much to do...wanna kill some iraqis?'. fucking hell. what a bullshit excuse. you can't deploy troops, and then use the fact that they're *there* as a reason to use them. as i'm sure most people can see, this is a bullshit fucking reason, just like the rest of them.
following this, he said that "we all know that if the troops had been withdrawn, iraq would have immediately stopped its minimal cooperation with the inspectors". right. sure, the cooperation probably has (and always has been...it's pretty obvious that hussein *does* have things to hide - he's not the most savoury character; i guess dictators are just like that) been minimal, but there's absolutely no indication that he would have kicked the inspectors out. as i said before, the last time the un was kicked out, it was due to the *us*!
also, it was nice to see howard preying on the public's "fear" and "terror"
with statements like "the apparatus of terror," and the "immense burden of terror".
also, it's nice to see that he'd love to "extend to [the people of islam and/or arabs of this country] the hand of australian mateship". oh, except for the 'iraqi spies' that are so prevalent in the country...we better kick those out!!
lastly, he said "can i say something that i know will find an echo from all of you, whether or not you agree with the government," -of course the *rest* of us must just be plain stupid- "and that is to say to the men and women of the australian defence force in the gulf, we admire you, we are thinking of you, we want all of you to come back home safe and sound". well, i'm sorry, but my "prayers and our hopes are" NOT "with all of you". yeah, really sorry, but to anybody who's chosen to travel to this foreign country and fucking INVADE it, you being safe and sound is the fucking last of my worries. you deserve none of the above. it's the people like you, the cunts of the world, that are causing the fucking problems like this in the first place.
the comment above goes out to the vast majority of the australian defence force (those that are in iraq to 'create peace' [read: kill all the iraqis]); saddam hussein; all the iraqi troops who *are* informed about why and whom they're fighting; george w. bush; john howard, and anyone else who thinks that killing innocent civilians is in any way justifiable.
wow, that's a pretty damn long post...anyone read the whole thing? also, thumbs up *majorley* to plazma for having the guts to stick up for what he believes in in this thread, we need more people like you around
wow, this is really getting scary now
well, i have to say, he did "better" than i'd expected, and actually addressed a couple of thing which i would have expected him to ignore. pity he's a bigoted cunt who seems to lack any fucking spine of his own. anyway, onto his speech.
that iraq's weapons are "capable of causing death and destruction" - apart from the fact that there's very little proof that iraq actually have any/much of these weapons *anyway* (oh, and the nice little fact that if they do, they were most likely given to hussein by the american goverment in the mid to late eighties), well...most countries have weapons. i wish i had a brain that was actually capable of retaining statistics, as some people seem to be able to do, but i know america's supplies *far* outnumber what iraq are even suspected of having. but of course, that's irrelevant - it's not as if the democratically elected intellectual dubya would go and invade anyone or anything silly like that!!
not that it's the worst thing, but it was pretty obvious that howard was spilling propagandic "patriotic" bullshit all through his speech (quite reminiscent of the oh-so-amusing american propaganda videos from world war ii and vietnam. except they're not so funny now, are they), such as "can *anyone doubt," "does *any australian* seriously suggest," and "that will never be the 'australian way'". wow, apparently i'm not a true australian anymore 'cos i disagree with what's going on.
"australia is a western country, with western values, nothing will or should change that," said howard. now, does this sound like some really thinly-veiled racism? to me, it's a really fucking horrible statement - what, just because most western countries hold different ideals and customs to the "east" (wow, that's not a broad generalisation is it?!), we're somehow better. and i'm not suggesting that i agree with saddam's rule, but fuck me if we can somehow claim to know better than an entire half of the world. fuck.
in regards to the legalities of the attack (and god would i be happy if after all this bullshit dubya, blair, howard et al were all trialled for war crimes. though, i don't know how that all works, so i really have no idea if it even *could* happen!), howard said that everything would be cool (well, so to speak...i forget his exact words
) "on condition that iraq gave up their weapons of mass destruction...clearly we all know this hasn't happened". and why hasn't that happened...oh yeah, the us forced the un weapons inspectors to leave the country because they were ready to invade. sorry about that and all :/in regards to critics of the war, he said that "they know and admit that weapons inspectors only returned to iraq because of the pressure of the american military build-up," but of course, he doesn't mention *why* they originally left, in 1998 (not to return until this year). actually, us ambassador to the un, peter burleigh reccommended that the inspectors leave the country due to air strikes that were planned. so you know...it was *obviously* the *un*'s fault that inspections had ceased...right. btw, reference for this is [rai, m (2002) war plan iraq, ten reasons against war on iraq, verso, london].
"apparently," again about critics of the war, "they believe that a quarter of a million american, british and indeed australian troops should stay in the desert indefinitely, doing nothing". wow, this argument is so flawed that i almost feel as if i'm missing something. unfortunately, i'm pretty sure this is about it. what the fuck kind of reason (and yeah i know it's not the main, probably not even a large reason for war, but fuck, by putting this in his speech, it obviously carries some weight) is this for war? 'oh, our soldiers are kinda bored...really not much to do...wanna kill some iraqis?'. fucking hell. what a bullshit excuse. you can't deploy troops, and then use the fact that they're *there* as a reason to use them. as i'm sure most people can see, this is a bullshit fucking reason, just like the rest of them.
following this, he said that "we all know that if the troops had been withdrawn, iraq would have immediately stopped its minimal cooperation with the inspectors". right. sure, the cooperation probably has (and always has been...it's pretty obvious that hussein *does* have things to hide - he's not the most savoury character; i guess dictators are just like that) been minimal, but there's absolutely no indication that he would have kicked the inspectors out. as i said before, the last time the un was kicked out, it was due to the *us*!
also, it was nice to see howard preying on the public's "fear" and "terror"
with statements like "the apparatus of terror," and the "immense burden of terror".also, it's nice to see that he'd love to "extend to [the people of islam and/or arabs of this country] the hand of australian mateship". oh, except for the 'iraqi spies' that are so prevalent in the country...we better kick those out!!
lastly, he said "can i say something that i know will find an echo from all of you, whether or not you agree with the government," -of course the *rest* of us must just be plain stupid- "and that is to say to the men and women of the australian defence force in the gulf, we admire you, we are thinking of you, we want all of you to come back home safe and sound". well, i'm sorry, but my "prayers and our hopes are" NOT "with all of you". yeah, really sorry, but to anybody who's chosen to travel to this foreign country and fucking INVADE it, you being safe and sound is the fucking last of my worries. you deserve none of the above. it's the people like you, the cunts of the world, that are causing the fucking problems like this in the first place.
the comment above goes out to the vast majority of the australian defence force (those that are in iraq to 'create peace' [read: kill all the iraqis]); saddam hussein; all the iraqi troops who *are* informed about why and whom they're fighting; george w. bush; john howard, and anyone else who thinks that killing innocent civilians is in any way justifiable.
wow, that's a pretty damn long post...anyone read the whole thing? also, thumbs up *majorley* to plazma for having the guts to stick up for what he believes in in this thread, we need more people like you around
wow, this is really getting scary now
killarava2day
Ex-Bluelighter
johnboy
Bluelight Crew
the war may have begun (in fact it hasn't actually ever stopped, not since 1991) but the reason we still need to address the issue is that we live in a functioning democracy, and we need to vote out a government that hasn't done what we have wanted them to do. i urge every one here who is appalled at this action to make the effort to vote out the currebt government at the next election.
i'm not saying the labour wouldn't have sent us to war, but we need regime change here. howard has to go, a message needs to be sent.
i'm not saying the labour wouldn't have sent us to war, but we need regime change here. howard has to go, a message needs to be sent.
nezo
Bluelight Crew
^^ Johnny wasn't getting my vote after the Tampa debarcle...
MíkeySåmmy
Bluelighter
..ditto johnboy
the more people that are correctly informed about the present issues, and the more australian people realise the war is unjustified, the better. hopefully some people will then think before they cast their vote at the next election. remember, theoretically howard is just a representative of the australian people.
the media have a lot of responsibility in all this.
so far ive found BBCworld on SBS to be the most useful
the more people that are correctly informed about the present issues, and the more australian people realise the war is unjustified, the better. hopefully some people will then think before they cast their vote at the next election. remember, theoretically howard is just a representative of the australian people.
the media have a lot of responsibility in all this.
so far ive found BBCworld on SBS to be the most useful
The_Fuel
Bluelighter
johnboy said:
Why vote for anyone else..... If anyone thinks that another political party would have not gone to war then your nievity has out done you....
No matter who was in parliment this year, the outcome would have been the same.... no government in the right mind would say no to the US or UK.... our ties with them are so close and strong ...i dont even think the greens would have said no (like their ever going to get in power anyway...)
Sure some of it may be factual... but its still just rhetoric and not smoking gun/red handed etc evidence that can honestly 100% say that bush rigged the elections....
Donny Don't
Bluelighter
Whether we like it or not we are now indeed at war with Iraq so let's get 100% behind our troops are pray for a swift ending and complete disarmament of this evil regime.
johnboy
Bluelight Crew
the_fuel: how can you quote me, and not even read what i said? i am not saying labour would have done it any differently, i am saying that this current government needs to be given the message that it is unacceptable. and besides, why not vote for the Greens?
why vote at all? did you seriously mean that? you saying we shouldn't participate in democracy? wow, actually i am stunned at your "nievity"
why vote at all? did you seriously mean that? you saying we shouldn't participate in democracy? wow, actually i am stunned at your "nievity"
CynaKill
Bluelighter
I refuse to see how any of this is relevant NOW. Instead of pouring your thoughts into what ought to be, why not focus on what is. Really, stop bickering over who you're going to vote for in the next election.
Kevin Rudd stated that the men and women from the ADF in Iraq are "average men and women". I firmly believe they are ABOVE AVERAGE men and women, my thoughts are with them and hope that they return safely.
Kevin Rudd stated that the men and women from the ADF in Iraq are "average men and women". I firmly believe they are ABOVE AVERAGE men and women, my thoughts are with them and hope that they return safely.
The_Fuel
Bluelighter
onetwothreefour said:lastly, he said "can i say something that i know will find an echo from all of you, whether or not you agree with the government," -of course the *rest* of us must just be plain stupid- "and that is to say to the men and women of the australian defence force in the gulf, we admire you, we are thinking of you, we want all of you to come back home safe and sound". well, i'm sorry, but my "prayers and our hopes are" NOT "with all of you". yeah, really sorry, but to anybody who's chosen to travel to this foreign country and fucking INVADE it, you being safe and sound is the fucking last of my worries. you deserve none of the above. it's the people like you, the cunts of the world, that are causing the fucking problems like this in the first place.
the comment above goes out to the vast majority of the australian defence force (those that are in iraq to 'create peace' [read: kill all the iraqis]); saddam hussein; all the iraqi troops who *are* informed about why and whom they're fighting; george w. bush; john howard, and anyone else who thinks that killing innocent civilians is in any way justifiable.
wow, that's a pretty damn long post...anyone read the whole thing? also, thumbs up *majorley* to plazma for having the guts to stick up for what he believes in in this thread, we need more people like you around
wow, this is really getting scary now
You must be joking... how can you say a thing like that... sure go ahead and yell at the government as much as you want but to the soldiers?? are u serious..?? Please think of this.... these people join the army to further their lives (through career courses etc) but then get called up for war which they well knew may happen... however they don't know that when they join. They dont know the who/what/when/where/why it will happen, it could be a full on unprovoked attack by country X or country Y which is supported 100% by the australians.... this time it happens to be a war that has some controversy behind it and not all australians agree with it... THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS... they are doing their job for you... for australia.... risking their life.. under direction of whichever government is in power at the time...
But aren't you lucky that you can say that.... people in Iraq have absolutly no ability to say anything of the sort about their soldiers, their country, or their leader....
and what...I don't get a thumbs up for sticking up for my beliefs... ?? simply because they happen to differ from yours... i don't have any guts what so ever when there is a clear majority on the board towards the no war side of the arguement....pfft..
Johnboy - I read what you said, but i found it hard to see the need to send a msg to this government when every other government would have done it...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^CynaKill said:
100% totally agree....
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