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Should we go to war with Iraq?

You hit the nail right on the head Jakoz, the internet and threads like this really allow people to express themselves thouroughly, and hopefully helps inform others on issues they may never had contemplated...
I just finished watching the 9 news, where they showed the U.S sending an extra 60,000 troops to the gulf in spite of Sadam deystroying an extra 3 of his el samida (excuse the spelling) missiles today... Sorry kids, but it looks like the $54 billion its costing the allied nations (US, UK, and Aus) to hold their troops in the neutral country of Turkey will NOT be going to waste after all.
 
On the other hand, have a laugh at how much some governments must hate the communication age... they can't control mediums like the internet, and it has no place for their propaganda.
I don't know... I think this is a misnomer. The internet is simply a metaphor for our communications in reality, which nobody can actually control either. They can control popular cable news networks and mainstream print media, in other words they hold the air of 'legitimacy' and therefore can best manufacture the 'official version' and maintain a grip upon what people percieve as general common sense. Thats not to say there is not underground media, organised activism, and alternatives... These simply lack the clout afforded to more popular sources. This is still the case with the internet, nobody 'controlls' it per-se (yet) however on major issues like the war on Iraq, the majority of people are still getting their info from CNN.com etc and popular 'legitimate' sources. This means who actually controls the medium this information arrives in (be it Bill Gates, the Illuminati or just nobody in particular) of less importance.
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I've stayed out of this, mainly because often with these debates the arguement is polarised into pro-war/anti-war.

For me it is never that simple. Am i pro- or anti-war? I have to agree with Jose Ramos Horta, the foreign minister of East Timor who said recently that although war is a horror the world should do without, armed intervention into nation states that are abusing human rights has to happen. We, and by that I mean Australia, failed to take action in East Timor until it was way too late. The same goes for Iraq. The time to have taken action may have been about 1983, when Saddaam was at his most murderous. But of course we all know why we couldn't do anything then.
So you could say that's me pro-war.

BUT I am not at all pro- this war. If we were doing it for all the right reasons I'd be behind it. Hell I might even sign up. Of course the real r4easons are nakedly obvous, and obscene.

Here's a good breakdown of what might happen. It is taken from a rough transcript of an talk given by Thomas Friedman on March 6 2003. You can listen/watch the whole thing here.

The best case for the war in Iraq. He (Friedman)'s not worried about Saddam and his WMD - they are deterrable with conventional weapons.

What worries him are the "undeterrables" - the real threat, the 9/11 guys. A project that says we can partner with an Arab state and create an accountable transparent gov't that is leaning forward in the right direction, as a model and inspiration for other progressives, as the first step in a long term project. If we can do that, it's worth doing in moral terms and will get at the origin of the real threat - the undeterrables who hate us more than they love life.

"If we don't turn around now, we just might get where we're going." If you think the status quo is benign, think again.

Now, against the war...
It's the right thing to do, but we just can't do it right. It's a bridge too far. Iraq is a black box - when we open it, we don't know what kind of demons are going to fly out of it. There will be an envelope inside that tells us what we've won - it could be postwar Germany, or Yugoslavia.

A state congenitally divided between Kurds, Shia and Sunnis, that can only be ruled with an iron fist.

"Congratulations, you're the new Saddam Hussein".

In the first envelope, Iraq is the way it is because Saddam is the way he is. In the second envelope, Saddam is the way he is because Iraq is what it is.
And he who rules Iraq will become more and more like Saddam. There's a real chance that it's the second envelope we'll get.

For him it's not an argument against the war, but an argument for why we must do it right (i.e. with maximum amount of allies, UN endorsement, understanding of the American people about what this project is about). This isn't going to be a sprint - it'll be a marathon.

He's still struggling with the idea of the war in Iraq. We may have passed the point where we could generate the support we need to do the right thing right.

To do it alone, snubbing the UN and the rest of the world, would be a huge mistake. It is imperative that if this goes forward, that it not be out of some ideological pique, not because we couldn't back down, but because we're really doing the right thing on the basis of a value judgment.

There is a chance if we do it right, the end will justify the means.

If we do it wrong, on the other hand...
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Bush's speech....

Anyone see Bush's adress to the nation? it was on live on TV at noon today (Tuesday 18/3/2)

He's basically said that if Saddam and his sons don't leave within 48 hours... military action will be taken..... to quote...

"All the decades of deceit and cruelty have now reached an end. Saddam Hussein and his sons must leave Iraq within 48 hours. Their refusal to do so will result in military conflict commenced at a time of our choosing. "

Transcript of speech here

SMH Article here

Is it just me or does anyone else think that North Korea is being ignored here.... i feel that they are a greater threat at the moment... They are really taking advantage of the whole Iraq situation and i believe have the crazier dictator...

Also, Do you guys agree with this form of protesting?

Protesters target Opera House

Personally, i reckon they are f'ing twits and deserve to have the book thrown at them.... yes they have the right to protest... but no they don't have the right to waste my tax dollars getting that cleaned up, waste police time, or to use a Sydney icon to spread their opinion...

Another example is at my train station, someone has graffitied
anti-war sentiments over bill boards.... "how many live per gallon" and "peace takes brains" etc ....

my opinion is they are doing their cause a disservice.... /end rant
 
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war is not yet necessary

install a permanent UN weapons inspecting delegation to Iraq.
install another group or person to act as military council within the Iraqi government.

wait till the time is right and pick off Saddam. in the mayhem that follows force democratic elections, set up and monitered by the UN.
 
Re: Bush's speech....

The_Fuel said:

Personally, i reckon they are f'ing twits and deserve to have the book thrown at them.... yes they have the right to protest... but no they don't have the right to waste my tax dollars getting that cleaned up, waste police time, or to use a Sydney icon to spread their opinion...

Another example is at my train station, someone has graffitied
anti-war sentiments over bill boards.... "how many live per gallon" and "peace takes brains" etc ....

my opinion is they are doing their cause a disservice.... /end rant
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War merorials were descrated in Perth. I mean, I can see that doing something like that gets attention to their cause and all but its such a tacky, cheap and fucked up way to do it.

I am against this war but vadalism is not the answer.
 
Well war is only a declaration away now, once the "surrender now and be spared" timeframe is up it's on for real.

I just want to say that I didn't think that I could possibly become even more disillusioned and mistrusting of our current system of government but democratic capitalism has truly outdone itself this time.
 
I'll say what I said on the SMH website.

To say I'm concerned is an understatement. I believe that Australia should not participate in this war, and more strongly than that, that this war should not take place at all.Howard is defying the clear wishes of the majority of Australians to join this war. Tony Blair is defying the wishes of his constituents and Bush rigged the election to gain power. So we have three virtual dictators threatening to defy the democratic principles of the United Nations. The idea of Bush issuing an ultimatum to the UN is preposterous. Attention United Nations, we have a Rogue Superpower on our hands!!

-plaz out-
 
plazma said:
Howard is defying the clear wishes of the majority of Australians to join this war. Tony Blair is defying the wishes of his constituents and Bush rigged the election to gain power.

[/B]
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Plazma, i've agreed whole heartedly with you on other topics, but this one i just can't see.....

Majority of Australians? Where do you get that from? (and please don't say the protests....)

UK polls last night indictated (for the first time granted) that 50% agreed with Blair.

Bush rigged the election?? Bit too conspirocy theory isn't it... ?? And lets say for a min, that yes he did.... what was it in the end... close to 50 50 in Bush's favour.... now tell me... what % of votes did Saddam get in Iraq's last "election"? .... 100%... now if that isn't rigging through fear and threat.... then i don't know what is...

Do you honestly feel that america/bush is the greater evil? I mean, i dislike american culture as much as the next aussie... but to me, Saddam is still the greater evil.....
 
i agree with you there fuel...Saddam is the greater of all evils, but i just hate that there are evils at all. I am sick of psychotic, macho, murderous imbiciles ruining what could be a beautiful world. The world in such is a beautiful thing, its just scary what has been produced, and is continuing to be produced in the 21st century.

All in all, i am a liberal girl, i can't deny it, and I think John Howard has done a good job in his prime ministership, i just think he's doing what most of Australia's politicians would do if they were in his position.

I just wish it would all end and we could make the most of what we have and all that we have achieved.

~bliss~
 
Euphoric Bliss said:
i just think he's doing what most of Australia's politicians would do if they were in his position.
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YES! exactly.... I feel that it doesn't matter who is in power in Australia....who ever it is/was would be doing the exact same thing as John Howard.. wether it be Simon Creen or Choppa, or Ronald McDonald... they all would support the US/UK.

Why?

One is a very powerful ally, the other is the mother country..... The government no matter who it is, would not even think about throwing away these ties...
 
Bush rigged the election?? Bit too conspirocy theory isn't it... ?? And lets say for a min, that yes he did.... what was it in the end... close to 50 50 in Bush's favour.... now tell me... what % of votes did Saddam get in Iraq's last "election"? .... 100%... now if that isn't rigging through fear and threat.... then i don't know what is...
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Laughing my goddamned arse off at that comment... :\ :|
 
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Okay for those who are deeming this 'conspiracy theorist' (that's usually in my experience a label for a theory which is too threatening to the security of people's reality for them to even want to understand or believe it). This is how conspiracy theorist Bush's rigging the election is.

Jeb Bush, the govenor of Florida, changed the law in Florida only months before the presidential election, so that all convicted felons, of whom over 70% are Afro American (traditionally Democrat voters), would not be able to vote in the election. He also allowed the company doing the screening, that 80% information match determined who would be inelligable to vote, meaning if you shared 80% of your information with a felon, you wouldn't be able to vote either. This resulted in situations such as the chief election worker in one of the counties rocking up to the booth, and being told she wasn't allowed to vote. She wasn't even a convicted felon, but she WAS black.

The postal votes of US Servicemen (and women) being counted even though they were late, and had dates after the closure date. This was a result of Republican party officials emailing navy ships and army bases overseas and getting them to dig up every last vote they had (traditionally the armed forces vote republican) and send them in. When some of the people observed the votes were past the overdue date, and complained, the Republican media liason kicked up a shitstorm about 'so its okay for our armed services to face bullets, but their vote doesn't count'. Eventually the Democrats stopped protesting.

Thirdly, when the election race was still a matter of 2-3 votes of who was in front, and the last votes were being counted, Gore was 7 votes ahead of Bush. Fox news, never the most reputable of news organisations to start with, decided to get in before everyone else and declare the 'result' of the election. They declared Bush the winner. The other networks realised that they had better follow suit, without even checking information with the electoral bureau. The Fox News man in charge of the election? A cousin of Jeb & George Bush.

You think its funny? I ain't fuckin laughing.

As for the numbers of Australians, I'm not talking about the protests, but fuck me, don't the largest protests since the Vietnam War say something about how unpopular this is? Nah, I'm talking about the endless numbers of polls that keep coming up with things like only 25% of Australians support a war WITHOUT UN approval. We don't have UN approval. So we're running an illegal war, we're rogue nations, we're the bad guys now. So I guess we should sit there and suck this one over for a while.

-plaz out-
 
samadhi said:
Laughing my goddamned arse off at that comment... :\ :|
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Why? What's funny about it.... It is the exact same situation my mother and her parents lived under in Poland when Communist Russia basically ruled Poland under Stalin....

They brain wash the youth to think that stalin was great etc... my mother remembers crying for "grandpa" stalin when he died....but we all know that's not right.... Her parents lived in fear and never spoke an ill word of him for fear of retrabution, despite the fact that they despised him and were old enough to see him for what he was.... a dictator... just as Saddam is...

plaz, too threatening to the security of my reality?? c'mon give me a break... i simply used that phrase to say that i felt it was a bit to far fetched in my mind.. just because i don't agree with your opinion (which you have backed up well if all the information is true and correct) doesn't mean that im some sort of imbosile who has closed his mind to all possibilities...
 
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