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"real" people

protovack said:
The only reason I claim that a neglectful parent is valueless is that reproduction seems to be the only inherent reason we exist (or at least the only reason outside of the supernatural).

If someone is unwilling or unable to perform this task...they have the LEAST value.
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What a hilarious thread this has been.
This is a pretty tight argument, and also one that is stupid as hell. I don't think the issue here is value in terms of inate, unfeeling biology. I mean, is that the only way you see value? Although you can say it, and it's probably true in some "objective" (what a hilarious word) sense, no individual sees the world like that. So I just don't get your argument.

And while were at it, what's all this talk about value. Value to what? To yourself? To other people? To some sort of cause? I just don't get it.

...Or I wish I didn't, but I do. And since I do, here's what I think. I think that I understand what "kittyinthedark" and "punkybutts" are getting at. There argument is cyclical in nature, and everyone is potentially "valuable" (as all you weirdo bluelighters are putting it) to somebody else. There is no top of the food chain, ultimate goal ideal super people who are here to learn from the mistakes of the "fakes". Now, I'm gonna ignore the thing about certain people being intrinsically worthless, because I think we all know deep down that that is a load and anyways, this is where everything goes to shit. Because people aren't, I repeat are not that fucking easy. No one is just this one thing or that one thing. labels and categories just don't work outside of theory land. People use these things 'cause there easy, but every human being is very very complex, and since we're all human after all...


So I guess I see it like this. Value is an experential thing, in the eyes of the beholder, and since everyone beholds, and everyone experiences value, then we are all really rather valuable, no matter what we choose to do with our lives.

THis post might seems a little weak and scattered, cause I've left out a lot and I just can't find the words, but believe me, I know. I fucking know...
:) 8) %) 8( =D :p :\

And I couldn't get that damn new spellcheck function to work (damn valueless piece of crap) so sorry for any typos.l
 
off-topic i know but it's an acute accent at the end of touché.

and you don't need french keyboard to use french characters - if you are a windows user, you can use 'character map' to insert it like what i did. :)

alasdair
 
punkybutt said:
there's this person who's a jerk and unethical, but people assumed that he had more layers to him. turns out, he doesn't. what do you think of the idea that some people exist merely to drive you ?
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At least he's being true to himself, right? One thing I truly despise is people who give off a FANTASTIC first impression, and who end up being the biggest cunting assholes on the face of the earth. Seriously. Conversely, I guess what you also meant was that there are a lot of people out there who dont give off a good first impression, but when u get to know them more, they turn out to be really good people, so much more more than you expected. I love it when friends ive gotten to know further surprise me this way...its very heartwarming. Too bad your *unethical* friend didnt have much more to him eh? :D oh Well such is life.
Whereas yeah, a couple of people ive dealt with lately have also been of the first instance i metioned...plastic fake motherfuckers. Its really appaling, it shows you how insecure and FAKE some people really are. It also teaches me a lesson that you just cant take everybody at face value sometimes...exceptions such as this jolt me to reality and make me appreciate the people that matter in my life.
It all boils down to being true to yourself , and to those that care about you, in the end,.
 
protovack said:
The only reason I claim that a neglectful parent is valueless is that reproduction seems to be the only inherent reason we exist (or at least the only reason outside of the supernatural).

If someone is unwilling or unable to perform this task...they have the LEAST value.
Click to expand...
If you define the value of a person based on his ability to reproduce a neglectful parent isn't valueless, right? After all he has had kids, he treats them like shit but the has reproduced. Conversely a nun who has fed and taken care of the poor her whole life has less value if she doesn't have any children?
 
How many of you would be friends with a guy who beat on his own son? As in, you know for sure that he does it...and that it is hurting his son in a major way.

Or take any example.

Would you go out on a date with somebody who was married and abused their spouse in front of their children?


I'm guessing nobody would. Except a few people here are going to say yes just so they can keep their argument consistent.
 
protovack said:
How many of you would be friends with a guy who beat on his own son? As in, you know for sure that he does it...and that it is hurting his son in a major way.
...
Would you go out on a date with somebody who was married and abused their spouse in front of their children?
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i wouldn't and i wouldn't. but what's that got to do with the discussion?

let's distill this:

1. do you honestly believe that if you can't see value in somebody then nobody can?

2. why does least value equal no value?

alasdair
 
i wouldn't and i wouldn't. but what's that got to do with the discussion?
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Of course you wouldn't. No sane person would keep interacting with someone of no value.

You know, the irony of this thread is amazing.

Supposedly I am the one here who must prove that I can comprehend a different conception of value in others. People are wondering how I could have such a "narrow" notion of value!

Yet when pressed, nobody actually wants to associate with valueless persons.

Where is the "hidden" value that I, the narrow-minded elitist, fail to see? If it is so clear, then come out and tell me exactly what it is!

I have no problem with the idea that nobody is perfect. We all have our flaws. But why try and claim the same thing at the bottom end of the spectrum?

The spectrum ITSELF is value.

If someone cannot even wish to be perfect, then they can most definately be valueless, right? It makes much less sense to say "nobody is valueless" than it does to say "nobody is perfect." And the simple reason for this is that indeed, some people are valueless, and NOBODY is ever perfect.

If our value is always X - 1 where X is a number between 1 and 10, then it is clearly possible to have a value of zero (in this contrived example). Of course, I don't even see why this is relavent, outside of my limited argument.

I still hold to my original argument: anybody that is so irrational or selfish that they seek to harm their own genetic relatives, either directly or indirectly, is valueless.
 
protovack said:
Yet when pressed, nobody actually wants to associate with valueless persons.
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You're still the one saying they are valueless. What if Einstein was a complete asshole, would you hang out with him? What if every time you saw him he constantly told you how much smarter he was than you, that would get pretty annoying right?

If someone cannot even wish to be perfect, then they can most definately be valueless, right?
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I don't want to be perfect, I wouldn;t be human then, are you saying I'm valueless?

If our value is always X - 1 where X is a number between 1 and 10, then it is clearly possible to have a value of zero (in this contrived example). Of course, I don't even see why this is relavent, outside of my limited argument.
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If our value is always X+1, where X is a number between 0 and 9, then its impossible to have 0 value.

I still hold to my original argument: anybody that is so irrational or selfish that they seek to harm their own genetic relatives, either directly or indirectly, is valueless.
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Well when they were a baby they made their parents happy. I bet if they died as a kid their parents would be devastated. They obviously had some value in their parents' eyes.
 
protovack said:
If our value is always X - 1 where X is a number between 1 and 10, then it is clearly possible to have a value of zero (in this contrived example).
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to you.

...and somebody else might say that person has a value of eight. that's all i'm saying.

protovack said:
If our value is always X - 1 where X is a number between 1 and 10
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why x-1?

why not x where x is a number between 0 and 10?

alasdair
 
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protovack said:
I still hold to my original argument: anybody that is so irrational or selfish that they seek to harm their own genetic relatives, either directly or indirectly, is valueless.
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what if that same person found the cure for cancer?

:\

alasdair
 
This is obviously a lot more personal than it is philosophical - I'm sure this guy is a complete creep but that doesn't give you the right to theorize away all common perceptions of value in order to define him as valueless for your own emotional benefit.

He's a creep and a dickhead, leave it at that - you don't have to make it a failed intellectual exercise in public.

--- G.
 
Morrison's Lament said:
This is obviously a lot more personal than it is philosophical...
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you beat me to it. i was about to turn the discussion inwards because, frankly, all this talk of a hypothetical valueless-to-protovack person is, i feel, just a distraction.

alasdair
 
How can you even measure the value of anything at all. By intelligence, but wait how do you measure intelligence? Or maybe we should measure value by blood pressure, or maybe how much resources we consume. By how much money we have? By our happiness, but now how do we measure happiness? We all just exist now so what is the point of arguing about it. Just live and let live, and it will all be alright. What I find so ironic is that it doesnt matter what value you put on anything at all, it wont ever amount to anything more than it already does. If you steal something, kill someone, or take a shit in a river, you were a person, you are a person, and you most likely will remian a person until you die. It doesnt make any sense to put a spacial realm of infinity onto some little line, at one end of which exists perfection.
 
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