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"real" people

Beatlebot said:
See, I think it's comments like this that are upsetting people and making them come off rude. Frankly this comment offends me and my first thought is "disgusting".

This comment and similiar comments make you sound like you are devaluing human life. That's dangerous thinking. It's almost like saying black people are here because they make good slaves. You can't assume what anybody's purpose in life is.
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I swear to god none of you are reading. I've said more than once that this in no way devalues them, but it in fact gives them more worth as human beings - serving a purpose rather than just being a fuckup. Not only that, I specifically stated how that doesn't make them bad people and it doesn't make me or you or anyone better than them.
 
kitty, calm down. communication is a two way street. perhaps you're not explaining yourself very clearly. i understand that you feel these people have value but it's hard for me to see, based on what you've said, how they have any value if viewed outside the context of (their value to) another.

you described punkybutt's argument as a "very well-constructed idea" - it seems simple and muddled to me... that's my opinion.

alasdair
 
>>I've also known people who are "innate fuckups." At least, at the time I knew them. These are the kind of people who are not guided by any internal ethical/moral/intellectual compass. These are the kind of people that:

- Get in fist fights
- beat their spouses
- lie in order to gain advantage over others
- steal from people (either on a societal or individual level)
- neglect their children

Now why in the world would these people exist? Well, they exist because of the inherent variety within a species. Some individuals are better fit to advance their genes. Some aren't.>>

Do these "fuck-ups" have children? Will these children live on to have children of their own? If so, these "fuck ups" are as (or more, at this point) evolutionarily fit than you or I.

ebola
 
I think the broad idea is decent, but the original argument is mos def unrefined. The idea is more appropriate along the lines that we are ALL here to "serve as impetus for others to strive to be better". I mean doesnt that make more sense, bringing everyone up as a whole. At the same time, we are all alone, and we are All here to "serve as impetus for" ourselves to better/ be better. (if we do better ourselves, in context, then we better others too) Of course then we get into the whole natural duality of existence again . . .
 
If the fuck ups have more fuck up kids, is it b/c of "genes" (lol, discussion on a fuck up gene in thoughts and awareness? . . . oh how the might have fallen), or just b/c fuck ups raise fuck ups to be fuck ups, b/c well, all they know how to do is fuck up. ok, ill shut the fuck up, right after I say this, we are all fuck ups.

(edit: kinda like Ghandi's beliefs on the cycle of violence . . . )
 
kittyinthedark said:
I swear to god none of you are reading. I've said more than once that this in no way devalues them, but it in fact gives them more worth as human beings - serving a purpose rather than just being a fuckup. Not only that, I specifically stated how that doesn't make them bad people and it doesn't make me or you or anyone better than them.
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What you seem to be saying is that these "fuck-ups" as you call them, have no intrinsic value other than their ability to set an example for others.

For example, I could say that you have no purpose on this earth other than to remind me to be more compassionate and empathetic to others. How would that make you feel?

No offence, I'm just trying to show what you argument looks like to me so far.
 
Do real people question whats real?

No one has any control over what they are, what they become is in there hands but how can they know what to become if its something they havent known?Everything we do is determined by what we have done and "meant" to do.Control is nothing more than a beautiful illusion.

Pointing out bad qualities in others personalities is like pointing out bad features in an ugly persons figure.

$0.02 CDN
 
Beatlebot said:
What you seem to be saying is that these "fuck-ups" as you call them, have no intrinsic value other than their ability to set an example for others.

For example, I could say that you have no purpose on this earth other than to remind me to be more compassionate and empathetic to others. How would that make you feel?

No offence, I'm just trying to show what you argument looks like to me so far.
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If that's what you really think about me, that's just fine, and it doesn't hurt my feelings at all (but if you've ever read anything in TDS i'm sure you'd know otherwise ;)). I think it is the mark of at least a bit of humanity to realize that one's self is flawed. There are a lot of screwups out there that know they just have bad luck in life and bad decision-making skills and live happily knowing that. I know that I can be overly critical and analytical. If you can learn from that, good. I think what you are missing is the cyclical/sliding-scale nature of this whole situation. It is not impossible to move up from being a simple impetus for others to being someone that has learned from other's mistakes. Likewise it is possible to drop down from "real" status to simple impetus for others if you lose yourself or drown in life.

But you know that phrase "some people never learn" - i think that's what really applies here. It's those people that never seem to put two and two together that we're talking about. You can't deny that they exist. It may be arrogant to "look down upon them" as this rationale seems to do, but like I said before, making any judgment upon yourself in regard to others is arrogant, so it's really irrelevant. It's not any more arrogant than saying you're smarter or faster or better at anything. It's the same as stupid vs. smart. You can't deny the fact that some people are just plain dumb. You can't deny the fact that some people don't really have a whole lot of purpose to their lives or worse, are detrimental to others and themselves. For example, the types of people that protovack mentioned. Any clearer?
 
kittyinthedark said:
I've said more than once that this in no way devalues them, but it in fact gives them more worth as human beings - serving a purpose rather than just being a fuckup.
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This is what is trhowing me, the idea that another human being's existence is solely for your advantage. These people have their own lives, their purpose is not to serve you. I guess its not that your views on this are disgusting, just wrong. To say that the only purpose a person has is to benefit you is way too simplistic. They may have that effect on you, but they lead their own lives, 99.9999% of which you are unaware of.
 
How do you know I'm wrong. Just the same, I don't know that I'm right. I don't believe there is any purpose in life.
 
All I'm trying to say is that everyone has a value and purpose of their own.

Sure, they might not be expressing that purpose in the best way, but everyone has potential, at least until they mess up their own psyche beyond repair. There might be people on this earth who have failed their purpose, but nobody is here for the sole purpose of any other person. Everybody is "real".

I like you Kitty <3 I just don't like this theory as it was originally presented.
 
kittyinthedark said:
How do you know I'm wrong. Just the same, I don't know that I'm right. I don't believe there is any purpose in life.
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elemenohpee said:
To say that the only purpose a person has is to benefit you is way too simplistic. They may have that effect on you, but they lead their own lives, 99.9999% of which you are unaware of.
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It won't let me submit two quotes, so I had to write this sentence.
 
i remember seeing a homeless person for the first time. the first thing i thought was this person has no one to see, nowhere to go, nothing to do. my mate commented to me what a peice of shit he thought they were. until i retorted the thought in my head. then he had a good think about it and looked a bit embaressed. everytime we were together after that i made a piont of stopping and saying hello and spending a bit of time getting to know them, hence teaching my friend some compassion. so, does it come down to how you look at it (life), or does it have to be in your heart ? now, back to the question. did this particular person not live up to your expectations ? why are they a jerk ? and what was so unethical ? what has that got to do with sombody being "drive" for someone ? ive got my own drive, havent you ? to me, real people are the ones who you KNOW you can count on 100%, in any situation, people you know wont sell you down the river. and there are not many of those these days. you know, those who call you up every few days without wanting anything from you, including the things they think they might not want to know...
 
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punkybutt said:
there's this person who's a jerk and unethical, but people assumed that he had more layers to him. turns out, he doesn't. what do you think of the idea that some people exist merely to drive you ?
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I understand completely.
All I have to do is think about these "fake people" (followers, sheep, peons, assouls, wtf ever you wanna call em) and I've got enough rage to get through the day gleefully. There's no way I can avoid running into em either...they're everywhere! And as angry as such people make me, I can also see how they give my life purpose and direction.

I believe smw said to me something like "If there weren't so many followers out there then people like you and I wouldn't be so unique." Damn straight. No light without shadow :)

LtR:
Oh I see them as people alright. People that I fucking despise. And although I can often see the potential for such people to change, it usually doesn't happen.
 
To chime in, punkybutt who is to say that you are not just a stepping stone in somebody else's life? To put such a menial value to a persons life, indeed any lifeform, is to place yourself above said lifeform in terms of overall value. To put yourself on such a high pedestal only invites critisism. Eg. If you think that you are soooo perfect, show me what you got. Show me why you are not just another stepping stone for MY evolution of self.

And Kitty, it is good to show support for ones friends, but honesty is a virtue we all share, so please don't try to derail what is an important lesson.

Cheers.
 
^Um, dude, did you miss the part where it was fully explained, multiple times, that any one of us could be a stepping stone for someone else? It's never been assumed here that anyone is at the top of the food chain. And exactly what lesson am I derailing, and where am I being dishonest? You don't make any sense.
 
Look at a handycapped person and ask yourself what USE they have.You will see they are completely without use and are actually a drain on society.Does that mean they are less than you?Does that mean there life has no value.Sure, if your hitler..

From dust to dust.
 
>>Look at a handycapped person and ask yourself what USE they have.You will see they are completely without use and are actually a drain on society.>>

That's not what i see.
 
so someone dissapointed you... tough shit that... believe it or not, worse things have happened. you ever dissapointed someone ? or really fucked them over ? i dont expect anything from anyone, that way , i dont get let down. sounds like you are comparing yourself to others, find something worthwhile to do.
 
kittyinthedark said:
How do you know I'm wrong. Just the same, I don't know that I'm right. I don't believe there is any purpose in life.
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If you don't believe there is any purpose in (or meaning behind) life, then why prescribe one to others? Can't the fuckups and sheep of the world just live for the sake of living (i.e. being human)?

The question is not entirely one of arrogance on your part (althought I do want to say it's a self-serving philosophy) but more of consistency (to me at least). You don't believe in meaning, but you tell it like you do. You would allow yourself to be considered a 'stepping-stone' for others, but is this merely an effort on your part to appear democratic or would you readily apply the principle you've outlined to your own life? Could you lead a happy and personally fulfilling life thinking (knowing) that you only served as an 'impetus' for others' change?

If this is the purpose you give to others (where you believe in none) could this also be the purpose you seek for yourself?
 
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