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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Questions WITHOUT answers?

the black sun said:
somthing had to of made this chemical reaction and something must of had to make these chemicals in the first place who even made that to even make life happen.
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Causality is a mental model. It was built in your mind as your childhood self observed that in the world it inhabited, causes preceded effects. Special Relativity - if you read into it above and beyond the mass-energy equivalence principle E=MC² - is a good example of how things in our universe can obey laws that aren't immediately visible to us. Wikipedia's page is a bit difficult to swallow if you don't know physics, but Brian Greene's book The Elegant Universe does a fantastic job of explaining it in the early chapters.

My point is that things are not always as they seem - even the things that seem fundamental to the operation of the universe, like cause-and-effect.
 
you're looking for "because ..." kind of answer
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Indeed I am, and the I don't see how the anthropic principle should change that view. Of course the answer exists, we didn't just pop into existence out of nowhere.
it explains why, even if there's no reason for your existence, you are here to ask this question to yourself
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I am here to ask the question because I exist. So what you say is equivalent to "it explains why you exist, even if there is no reason for existence".
 
what question, if answered, will unlock the mysteries of human nature? of the universe?
 
So what you say is equivalent to "it explains why you exist, even if there is no reason for existence"
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no
it explains why, even if there's no reason to existance, you are here to wonder about it
that's not the same

it doesn't explain why you exist but why you are here asking yourself about existence


now, about the "because...", consider that there may not be a "because"

nothing
absolutely nothing in the universe implies that there is a reason for existence (to my knowledge)

on the contrary, if there is a reason to existence, then the cause had to precede the consequence
which means that the cause was present before exitence

which defeats the point since it means that something "existed before existence"
so what you'll find won't be the explanation of instant zero, but of instant [zero+cause]
and that's not what you're looking for

so let me insist : consider that existence may not need a reason to be
you'll sleep much better if you grasp this concept
(i know it's not easy since eveything in our lives is causes and consequences, but try to let go of your a prioris)
 
it explains why, even if there's no reason to existance, you are here to wonder about it
that's not the same

it doesn't explain why you exist but why you are here asking yourself about existence
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I'm sorry, I totally fail to follow what you're saying here, could you make it more explicit for me please? If there is no explanation of why I exist, there is no explanation of why I am here doing anything, that seems to be a tautology.
And things happen for a reason. That is so obvious and intuitive that it would take some huge, paradigm-busting discovery to make me abandon it, one that I just don't feel you have provided me with.
 
did consciousness create reality or did reality create consciousness? meaning does everything exist because i perceive it or does existence happen regardless of me. u know the whole tree falling in the woods theory. without consciousness its like a bunch of rocks bouncing around in space but no one can observe it so does it really exist?

this used to keep me up at night that and my theory of how time is the real god our creator without it there would be complete equilibrium therefore nothing and everything at the same time. imagine that.

so by my count existing is purpose enough as minuscule your role here you exist because that is your purpose.
 
dspade said:
this used to keep me up at night that and my theory of how time is the real god our creator without it there would be complete equilibrium therefore nothing and everything at the same time. imagine that.
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a very interesting path for thought.
 
If there is no explanation of why I exist, there is no explanation of why I am here doing anything, that seems to be a tautology.
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it explains that you're hear because if you weren't here, you wouldn't be able to wonder about it
that doesn't imply that there is a "because" reason to why you're here

And things happen for a reason.
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says who?

we certainly don't if it's the case about the birth of the existence

That is so obvious and intuitive that it would take some huge, paradigm-busting discovery to make me abandon it, one that I just don't feel you have provided me with
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please reread this part of my post and if you have an idea about how there can be a reason to the apparition of the existence (meaning that there was nothing at all before [no time, no space, no nothing, no consciousness, no mathematical laws, etc.]), share it with us

vegan said:
now, about the "because...", consider that there may not be a "because"

nothing
absolutely nothing in the universe implies that there is a reason for existence (to my knowledge)

on the contrary, if there is a reason to existence, then the cause had to precede the consequence
which means that the cause was present before exitence

which defeats the point since it means that something "existed before existence"
so what you'll find won't be the explanation of instant zero, but of instant [zero+cause]
and that's not what you're looking for

so let me insist : consider that existence may not need a reason to be
you'll sleep much better if you grasp this concept
(i know it's not easy since eveything in our lives is causes and consequences, but try to let go of your a prioris)
Click to expand...
on a side note, you may want to try more psychedelics
it will teach you the relativity (or even plain deception) of "obvious and intuitive"
 
it explains that you're hear because if you weren't here, you wouldn't be able to wonder about it
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It explains nothing. Of course I wouldn't be able to wonder about it if I wasn't here, that's a pretty trivial observation. My surprise is not at the way I perceive things, but that i perceive them at all. Telling me that I wouldn't be able to wonder this if I didn't exist does not dispel the mystery.
The point of view that we should not look into the causes of phenomena really is intellectually stultifying. We would not have discovered much about the world if we just shrugged and said "because" about everything. And your point of view seems inconsistent to me- on the one hand you dismiss intuitive reasoning; on the other, your argument rests on it:
on the contrary, if there is a reason to existence, then the cause had to precede the consequence
which means that the cause was present before exitence
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That seems to rest on intuition.
And telling people to go away and do some psychedelics until they're as enlightened as you are is frankly condescending.
 
no drugs necessary to imagine this we exist because we do. sure everything happens for a reason but whether or not we are on a predetermined course seems unlikely. mostly from the thought why do an experiment if you already know the result. meaning if a god already knew what would happen before it happened whats the point?
 
It explains nothing. Of course I wouldn't be able to wonder about it if I wasn't here, that's a pretty trivial observation
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you have not perceived the depth of the anthropic principle

The point of view that we should not look into the causes of phenomena really is intellectually stultifying
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never said that
said that you should also consider that there may not be a cause to existence
you haven't done so

we can't really exchange if you don't consider what others say

We would not have discovered much about the world if we just shrugged and said "because" about everything
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either this is the first time you read my posts, you didn't associate my moniker to the content of my posts or you totally misunderstood them, and the ones in this thread too

That seems to rest on intuition.
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as far as i can read my own posts, i think i explained why it seemed likely to me, i didn't just say "abracadabra, it's like this"

it's not an intuition, it follows a reasoning

And telling people to go away and do some psychedelics until they're as enlightened as you are is frankly condescending.
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it's an advice
the same kind as telling you to look at an atlas if you don't know about geography
there's nothing condescending about this
if you don't want to hear other's opinions or advices, why post on a message board?

i very well understood where you stand
i'm didn't close myself to your opinion
i happen to have been there too
(do you think i've been holding views such as "there was no preceding cause to the birth of the universe" since i was a kid?)
and that's why i give a different point of view which convinces me more than the one i previously had


no drugs necessary to imagine this we exist because we do
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no, you're right
but it may help some people who don't let their imagination wander



and sorry for writing "here" "hear". looks illiterate
i write before going to bed, usually after the effect of the sleeping pills has started
 
I don't see what I haven't grasped about the anthropic principle. It's a statement about a bias in our observations, that observers are only capable of observing those worlds allow them to exist. OK, so I can only perceive life-sustaining worlds. How does this reduce my surprise that I perceive at all?
I have considered the idea that there may not be a cause for existence. While it may be true, it doesn't explain much about why the universe is the way it is. I believe that there is an uncaused cause, a prime mover. This is, to me, a better inference from our observations than that the universe is brute fact.
Reasoning is based on our intuitions:
on the contrary, if there is a reason to existence, then the cause had to precede the consequence
which means that the cause was present before exitence
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This is based on your intuitive understanding of causation. I didn't say that it was an intuition, I said that it rested on intuition.
Psychedelic drugs are not analogous to atlases. Psychedelic drugs lead many to illusion and false belief.
 
Why are we here? I don't mean this in the metaphorical over used sense but the literal sense. Like how did all the choices we have made lead us to be where we are at this moment? If we had done something just a little different would we still be here? Do we have a purpose or is our purpose simply to find the reason we are here? to discover our own purpose?
 
How could our purpose be nothing more than to discover our purpose? Surely then we have already discovered it?
 
Had a trippy question come too myself last night! How,why and when did we make up facial expresions and certain emotions?
 
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