Kratom Questions for those who have used Kratom long term (a year or more) especially for mental health

[Mycophile]

This post is for anyone who has been using Kratom fairly regularly for at least a year or more, especially for mental health issues like anxiety and/or depression.

So, I've been enjoying it sporadically for about ten years, and it works better than anything else for my anxiety and depression. I'd really like to just make it my medication, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why I feel like this isn't possible for me, so I'd like some realistic opinions on whether or not you think I can learn to work around these issues. I might forget some stuff and come back and repost.

But first, I realize that I'd have to stop using extracts. I've never used 7-OH and plan on never using it, but I LOVE OPMS Black in particular. Plain leaf used to sometimes feel just as good, but unfortunately now I've gotten into this stuff. So yeah, lets pretend I stopped using extracts, since I know it would be necessary.

Here are the problems I've had with Kratom and which I see as being hard to work around:

1) I've never gotten good at tapering (never really tried) and I'm almost completely non-functional when I'm in WD. I'll either get hypersomnia and be sleeping constantly and always tired, or I'll get insomnia and be tired for that reason. Also, the WD lasts longer than it ever used to. It now doesn't show up till like day 4 or 5 and seems to last about 10 days. I'm always just stopping cold turkey and I know if I want to work it into my life I'd have to learn to taper.

I'm thinking I could just let myself get dependent and practice tapering, but is that a good idea? I'm not sure it is...

2) Do you guys feel like the longer you've been dependent the worse the WDs are, or is there a part where it sort of evens out? Like, the most days I've ever taken it in a row is 17, and I didn't find the WD to be worse than when I take it for like 5 days in a row. Cause if the longer you take it the worse the WDs get, to the extent that like, say, if you've taken it 2 months in a row you're going to have MUCH worse WD that lasts weeks, then that's no bueno.

3) I usually can't sleep unless it's worn off like 5 hours prior to bedtime. This is a problem most don't have. A lot of people say they can't sleep WITHOUT taking it. However, for some weird reason like a few months ago I had a couple days where it didn't cause that problem. I don't know why, but this is hard to work around. Any advice?

4) I don't want bad long term effects. Like, I'll openly admit that I've developed some bladder issues where I wake up to piss like 3 times a night, and SOME people have theorized that this is because of Kratom and that it damages the bladder. There are posts on here where people say that it does this, but does it really? Could my bladder issues be unrelated? (And it's NOT BPH. I've had it checked with a urologist).

I just don't want to find out some day that I've got weird issues cause of it, but then again, all drugs have side effects. I'm dependent on Klonopin which is more addictive and know I'll have to get off someday. But Kratom has like over 50 alkaloids and we just don't know what they do.

5) I'm afraid of doctors finding out I use it and that I could need drugs that interact negatively. I refuse to tell any doctor I have used Kratom. This is especially the case cause I got a prescription for naltrexone years ago in order to be able to force myself to take breaks, and it works really well so long as I make sure that I am COMPLETELY through the WD before taking it because obviously you can get precipitated WD.

I now somewhat regret that doctors can see on my chart that I am prescribed it. If anyone ever asks (I've only been asked like once or twice) I'd say it's for alcohol and that my alcohol problems are now under control. That way IF they were considering prescribing an opiate for pain they wouldn't necessarily deny me, but that is a concern, especially cause I do martial arts and have had several injuries and I know I'm gonna have arthritis in my knees and I also have cervical disk disease in my neck.

So yeah, Kratom use is less the issue if I am not ALWAYS dependent like right now, but I could see it being an issue if I can't get off it and I'm questioned by doctors in a situation where i might need their help for something that could interact negatively with Kratom.

6) It's always being banned in different states. I've stocked up, but for some reason most of what I have isn't that effective, which is odd since I bought those kilos from a vendor that was ranked as like #3 in the US. But I don't like the idea of being dependent on it and knowing it could suddenly be taken away.

7) I do martial arts like BJJ, and that has caused me to develop cervical disk disease in my neck. I get neck pain daily and do PT 5 days a week, and I've only done BJJ while on kratom a select number of times. It's never been an issue, but my concern is that I could potentially be less aware of what does and doesn't hurt and push myself too hard and get another injury.

Do you guys think that's likely or do you think Kratom isn't SUCH a strong pain killer that usually if I was doing something that really hurt too much that I'd realize and stop doing that particular movement?

Anyway, those are most of my concerns. I'm thinking I could try an experiment where I just let myself become dependent on Kratom (Only plain leaf so I'd have to stop extracts and get my tolerance down) and then practice tapering off. I'm thinking that maybe if I became super confident in tapering and felt that I could function ok while in the middle of a taper that I'd be less concerned about dependency.

Cause when a good dose of Kratom hits it's like I barely even have anxiety or depression. I feel like I'd be capable of so much more in life because of how much it improves my state of mind.

But no matter how many times I hope that I can pull it off, each time I get dependent on Kratom I inevitably find out that it stops working, I then stop and go into WD, and that it just doesn't work as a daily medication for me. The analgesic pain killing effects will continue to work, but the mood boost just doesn't.

At the very least I will enjoy it from time to time, but it's so frustrating not being able to just use it medicinally. Maybe I just haven't tried hard enough to become confident in tapering and functioning while on a taper. That would certainly help.

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

 

[cnnka]

It’s the same as with all opioids it works until it don’t

 

[Cream Gravy?]

Kindling is real. The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become. Especially if you used to be on harder ones like subs or methadone.

Been on it for three years daily, I have to taper and quit once in a while. Tapering right now to quit for three weeks for a trip overseas where it isn't legal. I find that the best way to taper is to make sure you keep track of your doses and cut them one dose a week, over a long period. Keep the bedtime dose as long as possible to avoid insomnia.

I work at a miserable 12 hour shift job that I rely on kratom for and I've already ditched one of my four scoops per shift this past month. I have very strong kindling effects from years of O-DSMT and suboxone/methadone use along with other opioids.

If I can do it, you can do it. Just get used to going into WDs for the last hour or so before your dose and push yourself. Distract yourself and eventually you'll realize, "hey, I missed my last dose by 30 minutes! Holy shit, now I'm getting control."

And again, keep your bedtime dose for last. Need that sleep. And I use etizolam on the last leg to still sleep but cold turkey entirely. Etizolam has very weak WDs itself among benzos, that's why I chose it.

 

[chippermonk]

Kindling is real. The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become. Especially if you used to be on harder ones like subs or methadone.

Been on it for three years daily, I have to taper and quit once in a while. Tapering right now to quit for three weeks for a trip overseas where it isn't legal. I find that the best way to taper is to make sure you keep track of your doses and cut them one dose a week, over a long period. Keep the bedtime dose as long as possible to avoid insomnia.

I work at a miserable 12 hour shift job that I rely on kratom for and I've already ditched one of my four scoops per shift this past month. I have very strong kindling effects from years of O-DSMT and suboxone/methadone use along with other opioids.

If I can do it, you can do it. Just get used to going into WDs for the last hour or so before your dose and push yourself. Distract yourself and eventually you'll realize, "hey, I missed my last dose by 30 minutes! Holy shit, now I'm getting control."

And again, keep your bedtime dose for last. Need that sleep. And I use etizolam on the last leg to still sleep but cold turkey entirely. Etizolam has very weak WDs itself among benzos, that's why I chose it.

Good advice and I think people overlook kindling plus the effects of simply aging. I don't know how aging affects me with kraton as I've only been taking it 2 years but it sure as hell affects me with alcohol and even coffee.
I think a good technique for tapering is, like you say, keep track of your doses but also be very careful to really measure your doses. I find myself going with heaping spoonfuls as "just little bit more" but those rounded mounds add up versus a nice level one. I always thought the best way would be to get a scale and one of those setups for filling your own capsules. Then you are in control and you can count capsules. Even have different size capsules.
Of course, procrastinating fuck that I am, I still scoop with measuring spoons and they too often tend to be rounded.

 

[Mycophile]

Kindling is real. The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become. Especially if you used to be on harder ones like subs or methadone.

Been on it for three years daily, I have to taper and quit once in a while. Tapering right now to quit for three weeks for a trip overseas where it isn't legal. I find that the best way to taper is to make sure you keep track of your doses and cut them one dose a week, over a long period. Keep the bedtime dose as long as possible to avoid insomnia.

I work at a miserable 12 hour shift job that I rely on kratom for and I've already ditched one of my four scoops per shift this past month. I have very strong kindling effects from years of O-DSMT and suboxone/methadone use along with other opioids.

If I can do it, you can do it. Just get used to going into WDs for the last hour or so before your dose and push yourself. Distract yourself and eventually you'll realize, "hey, I missed my last dose by 30 minutes! Holy shit, now I'm getting control."

And again, keep your bedtime dose for last. Need that sleep. And I use etizolam on the last leg to still sleep but cold turkey entirely. Etizolam has very weak WDs itself among benzos, that's why I chose it.

When it comes to your last part, as mentioned, I actually usually can't sleep unless Kratom has worn off like 5 or more hours before bedtime. That seems as though it MIGHT be changing cause I had one night where I dosed late and surprisingly fell asleep in not that long, but usually I can't take it at night at all. And I am prescribed Klonopin (I'll have to get off it someday, but my doctor said he'll replace it with Gabapentin which I've heard is even better for Kratom/opioid WD than Klonopin) so I know my WDs are never as bad as what others experience. I mean I've never been in Kratom WD without being on Klonopin.

But when you said: "The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become" I'm wondering if you mean that even shorter term. Cause, like I said, I have never taken Kratom more than 17 days in a row, and I was very surprised that time to find out that the WD wasn't any worse than when I took it like 4 days in a row. It seems to be that if I use Kratom more than 2 days in a row (and sometimes even only 2) I will just get WD, but that past a certain point it hasn't actually gotten worse but just leveled off.

Now, this is going to be a lot of questions, so sorry if it's annoying. I'm just a neurodivergent kind of person who gets into details, especially when high on Kratom like right now LOL.

So, imagine if you were actually totally not dependent on Kratom.

1) Would you say that your WD is going to be worse if you take it every day for 2 months and stop cold turkey than if it's every day for 1 month? And if so, don't you feel like there's a certain point where it would level off? Like, it just seems unlikely that it would get worse and worse past a certain point and probably not quite the same as being dependent on a higher dose or stronger opioid.

I hear you saying that I can do it if I want to, but with all those specific concerns I wonder if it's worth it. If the answer to the last question is that past a certain point the WDs would not be any worse then that would be in favor of my just letting myself get dependent.

So, to be more specific on these:

2) do you think tapering is a skill that you really get good at with practice so that you can get to the point where it really isn't all that hard to get off it? Like, if you take it slow enough, will you personally really go through that much?

3) how do you personally taper? Do you have a specific amount you drop by after a specific amount of days, or is it just the lowest dose possible that you can handle without the WDs being too bad?

4) Have you heard of others like me who actually can't sleep on Kratom vs can't sleep unless you are on it? And if so, do you know if that changes for those people? Cause ideally it would be easier to sleep without having to make sure it's all worn off like 5 or more hours prior to bedtime.

5) Do you still get euphoria from Kratom, or is that mostly gone? And if you don't, then why do you continue to take it? For pain? What about depression and/or anxiety? Do you have either of those, and if so, has Kratom continued to work well for that even after years of depedency?

6) When you have to stop and taper off, how long does it usually take you?

7) Is the reason you sometimes stop because it's losing it's efficacy, or only when you take trips abroad?

8) Have you had any bad long term effects? If so, what are they? How is your bloodwork?

9) Do you have problems when you have to go to the doctor or get any kind of medical thing done? Do you always have to skirt around the fact that you take Kratom? Cause that kind of concerns me, and you never know if you might need something it interacts negatively with.

10) And as I mentioned when doing BJJ/martial arts: Do youthink that's isn't SUCH a strong pain killer that usually if I was doing something that really hurt too much that I'd realize and stop doing that particular movement, or is there a real risk I wouldn't feel it and keep going and hurt myself worse?

11) And finally, do you agree that if I decided to let myself go and just become dependent that I'd have to stop extracts and just go back to plain leaf powder alone so that I don't destroy my tolerance?

Sorry for so many questions. If you don't want to answer them all at once then maybe do some when you read it and the rest another time. I just have a lot to consider if I'm going to let myself be dependent. I feel like maybe I could run an experiment of some kind with letting myself be dependent for longer than usual and then practice tapering, but I don't know if I'll actually do that.

 

[tryptakid]

When it comes to your last part, as mentioned, I actually usually can't sleep unless Kratom has worn off like 5 or more hours before bedtime. That seems as though it MIGHT be changing cause I had one night where I dosed late and surprisingly fell asleep in not that long, but usually I can't take it at night at all. And I am prescribed Klonopin (I'll have to get off it someday, but my doctor said he'll replace it with Gabapentin which I've heard is even better for Kratom/opioid WD than Klonopin) so I know my WDs are never as bad as what others experience. I mean I've never been in Kratom WD without being on Klonopin.

But when you said: "The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become" I'm wondering if you mean that even shorter term. Cause, like I said, I have never taken Kratom more than 17 days in a row, and I was very surprised that time to find out that the WD wasn't any worse than when I took it like 4 days in a row. It seems to be that if I use Kratom more than 2 days in a row (and sometimes even only 2) I will just get WD, but that past a certain point it hasn't actually gotten worse but just leveled off.

Now, this is going to be a lot of questions, so sorry if it's annoying. I'm just a neurodivergent kind of person who gets into details, especially when high on Kratom like right now LOL.

I'll bite (even if this is quite a mammoth list, lol)

So, imagine if you were actually totally not dependent on Kratom.

1) Would you say that your WD is going to be worse if you take it every day for 2 months and stop cold turkey than if it's every day for 1 month? And if so, don't you feel like there's a certain point where it would level off? Like, it just seems unlikely that it would get worse and worse past a certain point and probably not quite the same as being dependent on a higher dose or stronger opioid.

the difference between 1 and 2 months of daily use would likely be minimal. Probably some lethargy, low energy, maybe grogginess in the morning, difficulty getting up or maybe not getting as much sleep as usual. Probably a bit more emotionally sensitive and maybe lower motivation to be social. That said - going from no tolerance to a month or two of daily use might not even get you w/ds at all honestly, especially if you've never had a habit before.

The psychological effects can be a bit more unpredictable - if you get into a routine of taking something, you do start to develop a craving for 'taking something' - like "ahh.. it's 4pm, time for some kray" or "I want to go hang out with friends, it'd be nice to take some kray right about now" or "wish I could take some before going for this jog" .... it does creep into the memory of the activities you pair it with and that can be just as challenging as the physical stuff to deal with.

I hear you saying that I can do it if I want to, but with all those specific concerns I wonder if it's worth it. If the answer to the last question is that past a certain point the WDs would not be any worse then that would be in favor of my just letting myself get dependent.

So, to be more specific on these:

2) do you think tapering is a skill that you really get good at with practice so that you can get to the point where it really isn't all that hard to get off it? Like, if you take it slow enough, will you personally really go through that much?

Kratom's pretty amenable to dosing changes - lower doses sometimes increase effects as the effects go from pain killing/relaxing at higher doses, to energy and motivation at lower doses. Getting tolerant to high dose use and shifting to a lower dose might make new effects suddenly more noticeable even though you are taking less.

The challenge is sticking to the dose adjustment.

3) how do you personally taper? Do you have a specific amount you drop by after a specific amount of days, or is it just the lowest dose possible that you can handle without the WDs being too bad?

When i was taking kratom regularly I would do it by feel mostly. if I'd been taking say 4-5g at a time, I'd drop it down to like 2-3g for a few weeks

4) Have you heard of others like me who actually can't sleep on Kratom vs can't sleep unless you are on it? And if so, do you know if that changes for those people? Cause ideally it would be easier to sleep without having to make sure it's all worn off like 5 or more hours prior to bedtime.

Kratom always made it hard to sleep if I took it too close to bedtime. I never ran into needing it in order to sleep.

I usually didn't dose until afternoon or evening, but rarely dosed later than dinner-time. I'd maybe take a dose at like 1/4/6pm and then wait til the next afternoon to dose again. For most of my use I actually only really dosed after work so maybe a dose a 4pm, 530pm and 630/7pm.

5) Do you still get euphoria from Kratom, or is that mostly gone? And if you don't, then why do you continue to take it? For pain? What about depression and/or anxiety? Do you have either of those, and if so, has Kratom continued to work well for that even after years of depedency?

I still get euphoria from it.

6) When you have to stop and taper off, how long does it usually take you?

At this point I usually just decrease the number of doses in a day to 1 or 2 and then stop. The withdrawals honestly aren't that bad. Nothing compared to opioid withdrawals.

7) Is the reason you sometimes stop because it's losing it's efficacy, or only when you take trips abroad?

I stop because I didn't want to be dependent on it, and because it was causing me to experience constipation.

8) Have you had any bad long term effects? If so, what are they? How is your bloodwork?

Bloodwork is fine - I have experienced intermittent but regular periods of constipation and I've also noticed decreased libido. I also believe there is testosterone suppression from kratom use. I may have also experienced elevated BP from regular use, though that's harder to directly attribute.

9) Do you have problems when you have to go to the doctor or get any kind of medical thing done? Do you always have to skirt around the fact that you take Kratom? Cause that kind of concerns me, and you never know if you might need something it interacts negatively with.

I've always been honest with my providers about my substance use. No sense in lying.

10) And as I mentioned when doing BJJ/martial arts: Do youthink that's isn't SUCH a strong pain killer that usually if I was doing something that really hurt too much that I'd realize and stop doing that particular movement, or is there a real risk I wouldn't feel it and keep going and hurt myself worse?

I don't think thi swould be an issue.

11) And finally, do you agree that if I decided to let myself go and just become dependent that I'd have to stop extracts and just go back to plain leaf powder alone so that I don't destroy my tolerance?

Extracts only is expensive as fuck. Stick with good leaf from a good vendor, preferably online, and preferably one who offers third-party testing for contaminants.

Extracts are a huge cost increase and they ruin your tolerance much faster than leaf will.

Sorry for so many questions. If you don't want to answer them all at once then maybe do some when you read it and the rest another time. I just have a lot to consider if I'm going to let myself be dependent. I feel like maybe I could run an experiment of some kind with letting myself be dependent for longer than usual and then practice tapering, but I don't know if I'll actually do that.

 

[Cream Gravy?]

I use it for depression, social anxiety, and mild pain relief. Never found the pain relief strong though. I never use extract because they’re expensive and dodgy.

Tapering within comfortable limits over weeks or even months is easy, and does in fact allow better effects and relief from constipation while allowing you to continue using.

I gotta go to bed but I’ll try to answer more tomorrow.

 

[Mycophile]

I'll bite (even if this is quite a mammoth list, lol)

the difference between 1 and 2 months of daily use would likely be minimal. Probably some lethargy, low energy, maybe grogginess in the morning, difficulty getting up or maybe not getting as much sleep as usual. Probably a bit more emotionally sensitive and maybe lower motivation to be social. That said - going from no tolerance to a month or two of daily use might not even get you w/ds at all honestly, especially if you've never had a habit before.

The psychological effects can be a bit more unpredictable - if you get into a routine of taking something, you do start to develop a craving for 'taking something' - like "ahh.. it's 4pm, time for some kray" or "I want to go hang out with friends, it'd be nice to take some kray right about now" or "wish I could take some before going for this jog" .... it does creep into the memory of the activities you pair it with and that can be just as challenging as the physical stuff to deal with.

Kratom's pretty amenable to dosing changes - lower doses sometimes increase effects as the effects go from pain killing/relaxing at higher doses, to energy and motivation at lower doses. Getting tolerant to high dose use and shifting to a lower dose might make new effects suddenly more noticeable even though you are taking less.

The challenge is sticking to the dose adjustment.

When i was taking kratom regularly I would do it by feel mostly. if I'd been taking say 4-5g at a time, I'd drop it down to like 2-3g for a few weeks

Kratom always made it hard to sleep if I took it too close to bedtime. I never ran into needing it in order to sleep.

I usually didn't dose until afternoon or evening, but rarely dosed later than dinner-time. I'd maybe take a dose at like 1/4/6pm and then wait til the next afternoon to dose again. For most of my use I actually only really dosed after work so maybe a dose a 4pm, 530pm and 630/7pm.

I still get euphoria from it.

At this point I usually just decrease the number of doses in a day to 1 or 2 and then stop. The withdrawals honestly aren't that bad. Nothing compared to opioid withdrawals.

I stop because I didn't want to be dependent on it, and because it was causing me to experience constipation.

Bloodwork is fine - I have experienced intermittent but regular periods of constipation and I've also noticed decreased libido. I also believe there is testosterone suppression from kratom use. I may have also experienced elevated BP from regular use, though that's harder to directly attribute.

I've always been honest with my providers about my substance use. No sense in lying.

I don't think thi swould be an issue.

Extracts only is expensive as fuck. Stick with good leaf from a good vendor, preferably online, and preferably one who offers third-party testing for contaminants.

Extracts are a huge cost increase and they ruin your tolerance much faster than leaf will.

Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm kind of surprised by how much your answers are the kind of ones I'd want, but still very wary about letting myself go completely.

I still just really feel like somehow there will be some other kind of "X Factor" that I hadn't planned on for why SERIOUS dependency (like I ALWAYS have it daily like my caffeine addiction) will be a bigger drain on my life than I'd thought. I don't know why I think this way. I guess it's just that I've used it sporadically for over 10 years and I always regret it when I let myself go, but thats probably largely cause I never taper so every time I decide I have to stop it's cold turkey WD and i have to deal with however that messes with my life.

1) So, if you tapered off now and really took your time, do you think it would really interfere with your life? Would you have a hard time working and also exercising and really being active while tapering? Would you feel like you need more sleep than usual?

Also: While it's maybe a bit TMI, I have developed a bladder issue which is NOT BPH. My urologist doesn't know where it came from, but I wake up to piss at least 3 times a night. There was a poster on here years ago who had really fucked up his bladder with Ketamine but he said that the 2nd worst drug for it was Kratom and that anytime he took it felt like, quote, "a bomb went off in his bladder and he couldn't stop pissing." There was another guy on Reddit who said he'd literally wake up every 20 minutes to piss and was a heavy Kratom user BUT he said he really didn't know if that was the cause. And of course, just like anything bad that has ever been said about Kratom, if you look up Kratom plus bladder problems you'll see a million and one mentions/articles/posts about how horrible it is for your bladder, but I take everything that the public says about Kratom with a grain of salt for obvious reasons.

2) Do you think that Kratom is bad for one's bladder? Have you ever experienced these issues or heard people complain about them, or do you think that maybe my issues and the other guys' could have been attributed to something else, or even if not, that maybe my issues MIGHT not be because of it? Cause aren't opioids in general also bad for urination?

I just know that if my issues got any worse I'd definitely have to stop. And yes, I have also recognized the negative effect on my testosterone which is NOT good for a middle-aged martial artist. I need all the test I can get, but at least it bounces back quickly when I stop.

I was pretty surprised you said this: "That said - going from no tolerance to a month or two of daily use might not even get you w/ds at all honestly, especially if you've never had a habit before."

That must be a personal thing because even though I have had a Kratom habit off and on for a decade, I've only used other opioids a very select number of times, and it doesn't matter if I haven't used Kratom for a year (cause I've done that) if I use it daily for even like a week I will have WDs. Maybe that's just my different body chemistry.

I'm pretty surprised you feel confident in telling your doctors about your use. I definitely don't and feel they'd stigmatize me.

Of course, there's unfortunately more reason for that because years ago when I was drinking a lot and using a lot of Kratom and other stuff like Dexadrine and Phenibut I ended up going to an addiction psychiatrist and got her to prescribe me Naltrexone. Basically I thought, "wouldn't it be cool to be able to just FORCE myself to take a break from Kratom or drinking whenever I want and not have to use will power?" (Aside from not being dependent on it when you take the Naltrexone cause then you'll get precipitated WD.) And I really have felt that Naltrexone has been helpful cause if I'm on it I just won't even try to drink or use Kratom cause psychologically I just realize they won't have any effect.

But now any time any doctor looks on their computer at my chart they will see naltrexone on my list of medications. I've only had to answer why I use it like once or twice and I said that I used to have a drinking problem so I asked a doc for it but now it's under control, but, on a different note:

3) Do you think that if I were ever really injured again (I have been but before I got into Kratom) that doctors would be very likely to deny me opioid pain killers even if I was in EXTREME pain cause they'd assume I'm some kind of horrible junkie?

Cause that is really something I worry about, and it's that kind of thing which makes me so wary about telling doctors I use Kratom. I don't know if I'm worrying more than I need to and if maybe some wouldn't have an issue. I mean I know that my psychiatrist would REALLY have a HUGE problem with it and don't even have to ask. He'd undoubtedly look it up and tell me I shouldn't be taking it with my prescribed meds (Klonopin, prozac, and Wellbutrin) and lecture me and probably even threaten to cut me off if I didn't agree to permanently quit Kratom. But on the Naltrexone, since he DOESN'T know I use kratom, I'm pretty sure if I were injured and needed opioids he'd probably be willing to tell doctors that I don't have an opioid problem and that it's for drinking...though I don't know if doctors treat all addicts the same and are like "if he's an alchy then he'll abuse pain meds too..."

4) How have your doctors reacted when you told them you took Kratom? They never told you they thought it was dangerous or stigmatized you as an "addict" in any way?

And yeah, extracts are expensive as fuck and I wouldn't be able to use them if my use weren't so sporadic. I don't ONLY use them, I mix them with plain leaf or sometimes take high doses of plain leaf, but it's stupid. I mean I had gone months without any kind of Kratom up until like 2 weeks ago and I took a dose of plain leaf and it hit me fairly well but being the addict I am I couldn't resist running to the headshop to get some OPMS black because I felt it would hit me harder. It did, and usually does, but that being said, if I am really getting the best possible effects from plain leaf it can sometimes be just as good as extracts. It's just hard for me to control myself, but if I used more frequently I know I'd have to. I've only use them a few days within the past couple weeks and already I've probably mostly ruined my tolerance for plain leaf.

And about vendors with third-party testing, there's one that I use that was ranked like the 3rd best vendor in the world a few years back (I won't mention the name...) and it's my main backup supply and I have a shitload but for some fucked up reason I have honestly never felt it worked. It really pisses me off that the one vendor I chose to use to stock up doesn't really do anything, but it's been like a year since I've taken it so MAYBE it would work if I tried again.

Shit, that was another super long post. I'm going to blame it on the Kratom but I suck at being brief and concise (not so good for my burgeoning editing business...)

 

[chippermonk]

Just a comment on the peeing issue. I have no idea if kratom can cause bladder damage but it's definitely a diuretic, just like caffeine or alcohol and it'll make you pee a lot. I take it only in the morning so the issue doesn't carry over until night for me, but I'm sure I'd be peeing all night if I took it in the evening, just like too much alcohol will do. Annoying but I don't know that it is harmful.
Also, I don't know how old you are but older guys (ahem) often have to pee in the night. And of course drinking alcohol close to bedtime, or even a lot of water. Just saying there might be factors besides kratom

 

[Cream Gravy?]

The longer you use opioids the worse the WDs will become

I think what I meant was just that kindling is formed over long periods of use. I don’t believe that little two week stints of daily use would be as significant; I’m talking about keeping opioids/opiates in your body in a constant cycle for years and years.

When I was on harder dope I didn’t go anywhere unless I could take some Bupre with me at least. And that was a bitch to get off of last time I had to fly for a vacation. For years I took bupre or O-DT or methadone daily and that makes your body accustomed to being medicated. It can even reduce your long term pain tolerance; hell I get a lot of pain from simple bumps against objects these days that don’t even bruise.

 

[BK38]

I've been taking Kratom at fairly high doses for over a year. I did briefly hop off cold turkey for about a month and I definitely found it difficult. I just had general malaise, low mood, pain (I have a shoulder injury I take it for, as well as depression) and some insomnia. To be honest, I thought it would be a lot worse after a year +. I think getting older and kindling affected my WDs quite a bit though - the acute WDs were quite protracted; about 2 weeks.

I've always stuck with leaf Kratom as I know the extracts would likely be a prohibitively expensive monkey to have on my back.

I haven't noticed anything myself in terms of long term consequences such as bladder problems and I'll have the results for some general blood work on Saturday. My doctor does not know I take it.

It sounds like you are using it fairly judiciously imo, but that you are right about staying away from the extracts.

I should probably look into the long term consequences more as I've used for so long at moderate to high doses on the daily.

Best of luck!

 

[Mycophile]

Just a comment on the peeing issue. I have no idea if kratom can cause bladder damage but it's definitely a diuretic, just like caffeine or alcohol and it'll make you pee a lot. I take it only in the morning so the issue doesn't carry over until night for me, but I'm sure I'd be peeing all night if I took it in the evening, just like too much alcohol will do. Annoying but I don't know that it is harmful.
Also, I don't know how old you are but older guys (ahem) often have to pee in the night. And of course drinking alcohol close to bedtime, or even a lot of water. Just saying there might be factors besides kratom

Thanks. Yeah, I've heard that supposedly in Thailand they call it "the pee plant." And yeah, I'm 45 so it's not uncommon at this age.

 

[RyGly76]

This post is for anyone who has been using Kratom fairly regularly for at least a year or more, especially for mental health issues like anxiety and/or depression.

So, I've been enjoying it sporadically for about ten years, and it works better than anything else for my anxiety and depression. I'd really like to just make it my medication, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why I feel like this isn't possible for me, so I'd like some realistic opinions on whether or not you think I can learn to work around these issues. I might forget some stuff and come back and repost.

But first, I realize that I'd have to stop using extracts. I've never used 7-OH and plan on never using it, but I LOVE OPMS Black in particular. Plain leaf used to sometimes feel just as good, but unfortunately now I've gotten into this stuff. So yeah, lets pretend I stopped using extracts, since I know it would be necessary.

Here are the problems I've had with Kratom and which I see as being hard to work around:

1) I've never gotten good at tapering (never really tried) and I'm almost completely non-functional when I'm in WD. I'll either get hypersomnia and be sleeping constantly and always tired, or I'll get insomnia and be tired for that reason. Also, the WD lasts longer than it ever used to. It now doesn't show up till like day 4 or 5 and seems to last about 10 days. I'm always just stopping cold turkey and I know if I want to work it into my life I'd have to learn to taper.

I'm thinking I could just let myself get dependent and practice tapering, but is that a good idea? I'm not sure it is...

2) Do you guys feel like the longer you've been dependent the worse the WDs are, or is there a part where it sort of evens out? Like, the most days I've ever taken it in a row is 17, and I didn't find the WD to be worse than when I take it for like 5 days in a row. Cause if the longer you take it the worse the WDs get, to the extent that like, say, if you've taken it 2 months in a row you're going to have MUCH worse WD that lasts weeks, then that's no bueno.

3) I usually can't sleep unless it's worn off like 5 hours prior to bedtime. This is a problem most don't have. A lot of people say they can't sleep WITHOUT taking it. However, for some weird reason like a few months ago I had a couple days where it didn't cause that problem. I don't know why, but this is hard to work around. Any advice?

4) I don't want bad long term effects. Like, I'll openly admit that I've developed some bladder issues where I wake up to piss like 3 times a night, and SOME people have theorized that this is because of Kratom and that it damages the bladder. There are posts on here where people say that it does this, but does it really? Could my bladder issues be unrelated? (And it's NOT BPH. I've had it checked with a urologist).

I just don't want to find out some day that I've got weird issues cause of it, but then again, all drugs have side effects. I'm dependent on Klonopin which is more addictive and know I'll have to get off someday. But Kratom has like over 50 alkaloids and we just don't know what they do.

5) I'm afraid of doctors finding out I use it and that I could need drugs that interact negatively. I refuse to tell any doctor I have used Kratom. This is especially the case cause I got a prescription for naltrexone years ago in order to be able to force myself to take breaks, and it works really well so long as I make sure that I am COMPLETELY through the WD before taking it because obviously you can get precipitated WD.

I now somewhat regret that doctors can see on my chart that I am prescribed it. If anyone ever asks (I've only been asked like once or twice) I'd say it's for alcohol and that my alcohol problems are now under control. That way IF they were considering prescribing an opiate for pain they wouldn't necessarily deny me, but that is a concern, especially cause I do martial arts and have had several injuries and I know I'm gonna have arthritis in my knees and I also have cervical disk disease in my neck.

So yeah, Kratom use is less the issue if I am not ALWAYS dependent like right now, but I could see it being an issue if I can't get off it and I'm questioned by doctors in a situation where i might need their help for something that could interact negatively with Kratom.

6) It's always being banned in different states. I've stocked up, but for some reason most of what I have isn't that effective, which is odd since I bought those kilos from a vendor that was ranked as like #3 in the US. But I don't like the idea of being dependent on it and knowing it could suddenly be taken away.

7) I do martial arts like BJJ, and that has caused me to develop cervical disk disease in my neck. I get neck pain daily and do PT 5 days a week, and I've only done BJJ while on kratom a select number of times. It's never been an issue, but my concern is that I could potentially be less aware of what does and doesn't hurt and push myself too hard and get another injury.

Do you guys think that's likely or do you think Kratom isn't SUCH a strong pain killer that usually if I was doing something that really hurt too much that I'd realize and stop doing that particular movement?

Anyway, those are most of my concerns. I'm thinking I could try an experiment where I just let myself become dependent on Kratom (Only plain leaf so I'd have to stop extracts and get my tolerance down) and then practice tapering off. I'm thinking that maybe if I became super confident in tapering and felt that I could function ok while in the middle of a taper that I'd be less concerned about dependency.

Cause when a good dose of Kratom hits it's like I barely even have anxiety or depression. I feel like I'd be capable of so much more in life because of how much it improves my state of mind.

But no matter how many times I hope that I can pull it off, each time I get dependent on Kratom I inevitably find out that it stops working, I then stop and go into WD, and that it just doesn't work as a daily medication for me. The analgesic pain killing effects will continue to work, but the mood boost just doesn't.

At the very least I will enjoy it from time to time, but it's so frustrating not being able to just use it medicinally. Maybe I just haven't tried hard enough to become confident in tapering and functioning while on a taper. That would certainly help.

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

I'm sure you've heard facts about how you could get severely addicted? I did kratom for about 5 years give or take. I loved it for how effective it was for my anxiety. But after five years it became less of a remedy, and more of a burden financially and when I wanted to walk away... It sucked! I was addicted to it, it reminded of kicking opiates. Anyway to make a long story short it took another 4 years of being on a methadone program for me to finally get straight. So I would have caution I would just say watch your intake and try to keep it at bay! good luck man

 

[Mycophile]

I'm sure you've heard facts about how you could get severely addicted? I did kratom for about 5 years give or take. I loved it for how effective it was for my anxiety. But after five years it became less of a remedy, and more of a burden financially and when I wanted to walk away... It sucked! I was addicted to it, it reminded of kicking opiates. Anyway to make a long story short it took another 4 years of being on a methadone program for me to finally get straight. So I would have caution I would just say watch your intake and try to keep it at bay! good luck man

I've been dependent on it more times than I can count and always gotten off cold turkey and been fine (though I should really learn to taper).

No offense man, but getting off Kratom really should NOT require a methadone program, let alone 4 years!! Methadone is a MUCH stronger opioid than Kratom. I mean, that's actually really going in the wrong direction and then getting addicted to a stronger opioid like when people use suboxone to get off Kratom. It's COMPLETELY backwards. You should just be able to slowly taper off.

Did you try to just taper? If not, why not? And if so, why didn't it work? Or if you didn't try to taper and tried to go cold turkey, what happened?

Cause seriously bro, cold turkey Kratom WD lasts me about 10 days. Why would you need four YEARS and methadone to stop something that only has 10 days worth of WDs?? The only thing I can think is that maybe you were working a hard job and couldn't function while in WD, but again, you should have just been able to slowly taper off just using lower doses of Kratom.

And otherwise, if you actually had 10 days where you didn't have work then going cold turkey should have been possible if you wanted it over sooner.

Now, I also take Klonopin so I won't pretend that that doesn't make WDs easier, in fact, probably much easier. But that being said, when I go into WD it's one of two types 1) hypersomnia which is how it USED to be. I'd just be really really tired and felt like I couldn't stop sleeping and had no energy and felt kind of depressed with a runny nose or 2) now it's more insomnia. I can sleep, but it's hard to fall asleep and I keep waking up. The other symptoms are the same.

So really, it's not that hard. I just push through those 10 days MAX (sometimes fewer) and then it's over. And if I tapered it would be way easier.

Have you ever taken harder opiates? Cause I've never been dependent on harder opioids like Oxy or heroin or whatever, but most of the people here who have been dependent on those will say that Kratom WD is a walk in the park.

No disrespect at all, and I hope you don't take offense, but I just have never felt it to be all that bad so I don't get why you'd need a methadone program. I think a lot of people would probably use Kratom to get off Methadone to be honest.

 

[RyGly76]

I've been dependent on it more times than I can count and always gotten off cold turkey and been fine (though I should really learn to taper).

No offense man, but getting off Kratom really should NOT require a methadone program, let alone 4 years!! Methadone is a MUCH stronger opioid than Kratom. I mean, that's actually really going in the wrong direction and then getting addicted to a stronger opioid like when people use suboxone to get off Kratom. It's COMPLETELY backwards. You should just be able to slowly taper off.

Did you try to just taper? If not, why not? And if so, why didn't it work? Or if you didn't try to taper and tried to go cold turkey, what happened?

Cause seriously bro, cold turkey Kratom WD lasts me about 10 days. Why would you need four YEARS and methadone to stop something that only has 10 days worth of WDs?? The only thing I can think is that maybe you were working a hard job and couldn't function while in WD, but again, you should have just been able to slowly taper off just using lower doses of Kratom.

And otherwise, if you actually had 10 days where you didn't have work then going cold turkey should have been possible if you wanted it over sooner.

Now, I also take Klonopin so I won't pretend that that doesn't make WDs easier, in fact, probably much easier. But that being said, when I go into WD it's one of two types 1) hypersomnia which is how it USED to be. I'd just be really really tired and felt like I couldn't stop sleeping and had no energy and felt kind of depressed with a runny nose or 2) now it's more insomnia. I can sleep, but it's hard to fall asleep and I keep waking up. The other symptoms are the same.

So really, it's not that hard. I just push through those 10 days MAX (sometimes fewer) and then it's over. And if I tapered it would be way easier.

Have you ever taken harder opiates? Cause I've never been dependent on harder opioids like Oxy or heroin or whatever, but most of the people here who have been dependent on those will say that Kratom WD is a walk in the park.

No disrespect at all, and I hope you don't take offense, but I just have never felt it to be all that bad so I don't get why you'd need a methadone program. I think a lot of people would probably use Kratom to get off Methadone to be honest.

Dude, do you have any advice for the guy who originally wrote the topic. I got off methadone five years ago, you're wasting your time on me who's clean, instead of the guy who's asking for advice. No offense! You can say you've never used something to get off of something else and and then you became addicted to it well I guess you're a better person than me.

 

[RyGly76]

Oh, you are the guy who wrote it, stupid me! Anyway, you wanted my opinion or my experience that's what I got for you. Try shortening up your posts

 

[generation lsd25]

If you think kratom is the same as say oxycodone hcl, you are fooling yourself. Oxycontin/oxycontine is not oxycodone hydrochloride. Quit trying to create a thread

 

[BK38]

I'm sure you've heard facts about how you could get severely addicted? I did kratom for about 5 years give or take. I loved it for how effective it was for my anxiety. But after five years it became less of a remedy, and more of a burden financially and when I wanted to walk away... It sucked! I was addicted to it, it reminded of kicking opiates. Anyway to make a long story short it took another 4 years of being on a methadone program for me to finally get straight. So I would have caution I would just say watch your intake and try to keep it at bay! good luck man

I'm sure everyone is different, but it does seem counter-intuitive to hop on methadone for a Kratom addiction (I can't speak to the extracts) as methadone is a significantly stronger opiate.

 

[Mycophile]

Dude, do you have any advice for the guy who originally wrote the topic. I got off methadone five years ago, you're wasting your time on me who's clean, instead of the guy who's asking for advice. No offense! You can say you've never used something to get off of something else and and then you became addicted to it well I guess you're a better person than me.

I don't think I'm any better than you, I'm just saying what many others have said, which is that drugs like Methadone and Suboxone are stronger opioids than Kratom. I just don't really understand why you'd have taken the path you did, but you don't have to answer those questions if you don't want to. I'm guessing some dumb doctor who bought into Kratom being as bad as heroin or whatever told you it was the right thing and you didn't have a forum like this for advice. I had a doctor who tried to get me to use suboxone to get off Kratom during one bad period where I was going through a lot, but I asked on here and everyone (THANKFULLY) told me not to listen to her because suboxone is usually WAY harder to get off of. Now I just take Kratom sporadically and go through some WD when I want to get off, but of course my WD symptoms are probably milder than most because I am also on Klonopin which helps. I have to assume that the reason the process took you so long is because you then became dependent on methadone which is worse. No judgement, I am just trying to understand. Did you even attempt to taper? Again, you don't have to answer that if you don't want. You can just ignore this post if it bothers you.

 

[Mycophile]

If you think kratom is the same as say oxycodone hcl, you are fooling yourself. Oxycontin/oxycontine is not oxycodone hydrochloride. Quit trying to create a thread

Who are you talking to? Can't be me cause I never mentioned oxycontin or oxycodone.