Kratom Questions for those who have used Kratom long term (a year or more) especially for mental health

[Mycophile]

Are you sure this is withdrawal that you are going through after only a couple days ? Seems like it would take more time for actual withdrawal to develop. On the other hand stopping after a few days could certainly induce craving, feeling crappy, a hangover resulting from out of whack neurotransmitters, etc ( asking for a friend )

Yes it is, but also when did I say it was only a couple days? I said A FEW days, not a couple. It's usually more than that. I can SOMETIMES get away with 2 days of dosing in a row without WD, sometimes not. These days I've been taking extracts like OPMS black which I really shouldn't be because it obviously DESTROYS your tolerance and makes plain leaf really only work as a potentiator but not by itself. I mean at least I'm not using 7-OH. I never have and I plan on never trying it because if I do even once I'm afraid I'll like it too much and I've heard about how bad it is.

But these days when I decide to sort of go on a little mini-binge for a few days I'll usually take like 2 OPMS black shots per day and mix in some plain leaf with them, and it usually takes 3 days in a row to really get WD but again, sometimes only two. And sometimes the WD won't even show up for days and then I'll start to have trouble sleeping.

But yesterday I was just feeling crappy, runny nose and tired and I don't know how many days I've used at this point, but it's enough. Of course, I forgot to mention that I also have a very mild case of Covid right now LOL so that is probably making it worse, but I'm vaccinated. Regardless, these symptoms have been very consistent over years of use.

Now I'm not saying it's BAD WD, but annoying enough that it makes being productive more difficult which is more the issue.

Yeah dude, I have used Kratom products for over a decade. I absolutely know what WD feels like and all the different ways it can present itself from insomnia to hypersomnia to depression, runny nose and general cold-like symptoms. I can't say if it's what people who use stronger opioids will refer to as WD cause I've only ever taken a little oxy/hydro in my life, but it certainly is. Everyone is affected differently. Maybe I get it more quickly than others, but I don't know. I mean, if you want to call it "out of wack transmitters" I don't know...but you said "feeling crappy, hangover, etc" so really, if that is coming from Kratom use where it otherwise wouldn't have then I'm not sure I see the difference. It's consistently feeling crappy so I see that language as speaking in technicalities.

I'm just trying to figure out how to use more often and making it more worth my while so to speak.

 

[General alcazar]

Keep in mind I’ve used kratom for 20ish years, I had a heroin habit a decade before starting as well, so my body’s very habituated. My current usage is 20-30g per day, and has been much higher. I think that’s why withdrawals are worse each time I stop, and well as PAWS. I never use extracts or 7OH.

PAWS has not prevented me from functioning. I still work and go about my life. It just makes everything lackluster and uninteresting - basically, depression.

If you taper correctly and are patient. Even with a 50g/day habit, it should just be very uncomfortable. With a taper, you can dose just low enough to have mild withdrawals, and then slowly decrease dose and frequency over 2-3 weeks. This is why keeping a log is so important. When you’re down to a low enough dose, you stop. It’s way easier than real opiates that way.

Methadone is very powerful opiate, and much harder to withdraw from than kratom. Using it to stop would create an even worse habit, not to mention being enslaved to a methadone clinic. At least you can buy kratom online for from a head shop…

 

[Mycophile]

Keep in mind I’ve used kratom for 20ish years, I had a heroin habit a decade before starting as well, so my body’s very habituated. My current usage is 20-30g per day, and has been much higher. I think that’s why withdrawals are worse each time I stop, and well as PAWS. I never use extracts or 7OH.

PAWS has not prevented me from functioning. I still work and go about my life. It just makes everything lackluster and uninteresting - basically, depression.

If you taper correctly and are patient. Even with a 50g/day habit, it should just be very uncomfortable. With a taper, you can dose just low enough to have mild withdrawals, and then slowly decrease dose and frequency over 2-3 weeks. This is why keeping a log is so important. When you’re down to a low enough dose, you stop. It’s way easier than real opiates that way.

Methadone is very powerful opiate, and much harder to withdraw from than kratom. Using it to stop would create an even worse habit, not to mention being enslaved to a methadone clinic. At least you can buy kratom online for from a head shop…

Thanks. I have a couple more questions if you don't mind. I'll number them cause I find that's just the way my mind works to be organized in that way, but first, it was someone else who talked about using Methadone. I've never used it and I would NEVER consider using it to get off Kratom. That just seems totally insane and like it would give you a way worse problem.

But I'm a little confused by what you meant here:

"If you taper correctly and are patient. Even with a 50g/day habit, it should just be very uncomfortable. With a taper, you can dose just low enough to have mild withdrawals, and then slowly decrease dose and frequency over 2-3 weeks."

Is there a typo here? Cause it's weird how you say "even with a 50g/day habit it should be very uncomfortable if you taper correctly..." And then "With a taper, you can dose just low enough to have mild withdrawals,"

1) Which one is it? "very uncomfortable or mild"??

2) Are you saying that you still use Kratom but have PAWS anyway? I would have thought that tapering would cover that just like it covers regular WD symptoms.

3) How would you go about figuring out how much to take per dose while tapering? Do you have a specific method or is it just take the lowest dose that you can tolerate?

4) Then, how much would you be taking when you think it's safe to just jump off completely?

Then, this might be kind of weird, but I'm just interested in how you and others would personally respond/feel in response to the following post by a guy on Reddit about these same kinds of questions, cause he's REALLY making me think of not letting myself get dependent even though guys like you have said you feel it's worth it, especially cause he's saying even after tapering he continued to have bad WD for 5 weeks and then lingering effects for months, and also a bit about how people like this assume it's just crazy for anyone to feel like having a Kratom habit has helped them:


"I got up to 12 grams per day, took 3 weeks to taper off, then had 5 weeks of constant headache, 3-4 hours sleep, mental misery, and no desire to do anything. This was followed by a couple more months of up/down mood and sleep before finally feeling normal again...Can you really take commentary seriously from those who would claim an opioid dependency is useful? I thought I was different too. I was proud of my tolerance breaks and self control. Kratom got me in the end, and if you let it into your life the way you’re considering, it absolutely will get you too. It’s only a matter of time."

I know Kratom affects everyone differently, but have you ever heard of anyone continuing to have WD for weeks even after the taper was over? And what do you think about his declaration that I WILL definitely come to regret using Kratom consistently and that people who think a Kratom dependency can be useful are just flat out WRONG?

I mean, you said that you have anxiety and depression like me (don't you? Cause you said "levels out your moods) and that it's been worth it you right?

 

[chippermonk]

There has got to be a better way to live your life than agonizing endlessly about whether taking Kratom habitually is a good idea. You're just feeding your anxiety, I think. You are not going to get any greater clarity by pressing this inquiry.
I personally think it's a bad idea to put yourself in a position of being dependent. There is a great body of evidence presented by many people here that it sucks for them. Whatever you choose, good luck, let us know how that turns out for you

 

[Mycophile]

There has got to be a better way to live your life than agonizing endlessly about whether taking Kratom habitually is a good idea. You're just feeding your anxiety, I think. You are not going to get any greater clarity by pressing this inquiry.
I personally think it's a bad idea to put yourself in a position of being dependent. There is a great body of evidence presented by many people here that it sucks for them. Whatever you choose, good luck, let us know how that turns out for you

Thanks for the advice. I'm glad to know your opinion because that helps.

I'm not sure that I'm not going to get more clarity from this. I might not, but sometimes talking about these kinds of things with people who know about them help me make my decision. Honestly, I'm not really "agonizing" or worrying right now. This is just trying to figure shit out for me in comparison to actually REALLY freaking out.

And as far as a "better way to live my life...", you see my friend, this is the way I live my freakin life. Every day, endless worrying about something on and on FOR DECADES. And Kratom works better than anything else I've ever used to quell the anxiety and depression. It actually quiets my mind and allows me to think positively instead of dwelling forever in a pit of negativity. THINGS SEEM POSSIBLE on Kratom. Things that seem impossible off of it. All the medications prescribed by doctors, NONE have held a candle to what Kratom can do. And the way it is now the best I can if I don't want to give in to dependency is like one fucking day a week. Even two is a risk.

I mean, the WD isn't the worse thing ever compared to other drugs, but for me it pretty much makes it so I can't do anything productive so then using Kratom with any regularity is too difficult.

Everyone's got their breaking point you know? And I'm just fucking sick of my own mind being my worst enemy and making me feel like I'm constantly going insane. I've found something that actually works so obviously I want to find a way to use it consistently.

I mean there is this new RC SR-17018 that supposedly can entirely eliminate opioid WDs. Imagine being able to use as much as you'd like and just take a little and the Wds are GONE!! But it sounds too good to be true so it might be. Who knows what kinds of side effects it might have. But I'll probably see if I can get a little and experiment.

Anyways, you'll probably hear about what I end up doing at some point.

 

[General alcazar]

To answer Your question, dose adjustments are based on how bad the withdrawals are. I try to keep it at very uncomfortable, which is mild relative to to true opiate withdrawals. Withdrawing will always extract its measure of pain. The goal is to split it into uncomfortable, versus agonizing, increments. If I take 5 grams, and it’s tolerable, I keep it there. Then, usually about 5-6 hours later, the feeling starts again, progressing to twitching, chills, and generally feeling like shit. At thât point, it’s time for the next measured, 5 g dose. After a week, you can go to 4 grams. Them every 8 hours. Then you jump off ans stop.
Occasional kratom is fine, but unless you have good self control, or are doing it so you don’t shoot dope, like I am, you might want to consider risks versus benefits.
Lastly, PAWS is when off kratom, and is the reason I started using again after the last time I went through a full taper and stopped. Consequence of a lifetime of drug abuse.

 

[Mycophile]

To answer Your question, dose adjustments are based on how bad the withdrawals are. I try to keep it at very uncomfortable, which is mild relative to to true opiate withdrawals. Withdrawing will always extract its measure of pain. The goal is to split it into uncomfortable, versus agonizing, increments. If I take 5 grams, and it’s tolerable, I keep it there. Then, usually about 5-6 hours later, the feeling starts again, progressing to twitching, chills, and generally feeling like shit. At thât point, it’s time for the next measured, 5 g dose. After a week, you can go to 4 grams. Them every 8 hours. Then you jump off ans stop.
Occasional kratom is fine, but unless you have good self control, or are doing it so you don’t shoot dope, like I am, you might want to consider risks versus benefits.
Lastly, PAWS is when off kratom, and is the reason I started using again after the last time I went through a full taper and stopped. Consequence of a lifetime of drug abuse.

Ok, so it sounds like you personally would go down to the lowest amount that is tolerable and stay there for a week, then go down another gram every 8 hours (for another week I'm guessing) then jump off entirely.

Maybe you were just using those numbers randomly and wouldn't go down by a whole gram? Not sure.

Would you say I'm correct that there's no one particular way it HAS to be done, and that generally you would just go down to the lowest tolerable amount and stay there for a week and then continue going down to the lowest amount?

And do you really think it's best to stick at certain doses for an entire week and also that it's best to drop down an entire gram at a time?

Like, you wouldn't stay at a certain dose for only 4-5 days or drop by less or more than a gram after that period of time?

I also am not sure why you said "every 8 hours" when Kratom generally lasts 4, but maybe that's just how you do it.

Sorry, just trying to get opinions on this from more experienced users.

And yeah, I know what you mean about doing a risk vs benefits analysis. That's basically what this whole thread is about.

No, I don't need it to help me off a stronger opioid (well, unless you count plain leaf vs the extracts that I really SHOULDN'T be taking). It's just that I find Kratom to help SO much with my anxiety and depression, and it also just plain feels fucking good lol.

But more and more I'm starting to think I probably won't just "allow myself to be dependent." I may run experiments like take daily for 2 weeks and then just practice tapering off. I also am likely to try that stuff SR-17081 to see if that allows me to enjoy Kratom a bit more freely, even though we have no clue if it is dangerous so I probably shouldn't.

Yeah, I've always been the "occasional Kratom user" as you mentioned. The problem is it being worth it once you go into WD and the doses stop working so well. I mean I might also use my Naltrexone to enforce a one-day a week policy.

But it probably is best not to give it quite as big a role in my life as I'm considering and just use it now and then for fun and relief. It's just that it's BY FAR more effective than any other drug I've tried for my mental health issues. It would be great if I could use it that way, but I don't know if it would end up being worth it cause a lot of long term users are warning me that getting myself deeper into a Kratom dependency might have diminishing returns.

 

[cnnka]

Brother you try a research chemical to come off a natural herb ? I would advice you against that leave the RC for hardcore opioid addicts who really need it. The risk reward ratio dosent justify it for kratom

 

[cnnka]

Kratom WD isn’t so bad I would use it almost constantly if it didn’t taste so bad and wouldn’t have a problem to go through a WD again.

 

[cnnka]

Also if you have such a bad anxiety a SSRI and a benzo or only a benzo or only a SSRI might be more viable option.
I take my Xanax for more than a year now have not up the dosage cause it’s medicine I take it for my anxiety and not to get high. It will work for many many years if not forever do I take more form time to time just for the sake of it ? Yeah maybe 3-4 times in a year and only slightly more.
Kratom opium heroin oxy codeine or whatever opioid it’s just isn’t working as a medicine for anxiety. You will want higher dosages and will be less effective. It’s the nature of the substance.
If you really have such a bad case it’s better to see a doctor to treat your anxiety and just take kratom form time to time to get High if that’s your thing

 

[Mycophile]

Brother you try a research chemical to come off a natural herb ? I would advice you against that leave the RC for hardcore opioid addicts who really need it. The risk reward ratio dosent justify it for kratom

Yeah, I can understand why you would say it's not worth it, but I'm sick of always going into WD because it's very hard to be productive while in WD. I really want to be able to be just as productive when in WD as when not so I can just take Kratom whenever I want without it being an issue. I mean it's actually really good for certain types of work I do like editing. It gets me REALLY into a good flow state and I can work longer, harder, and better.

Although it's true we don't know the risks of this chemical (SR-17081) if people continue to use it and I don't hear any horror stories and it actually seems safe then it would be a Godsend for me to no longer have go on and off Kratom again. I could simply take it whenever I want and benefit from it and not have to worry.

So I'd be lying if I said that I'm probably not going to try it at some point. I will probably order some but who knows when I'd actually use it.

Thanks for the concern though.

 

[Mycophile]

Also if you have such a bad anxiety a SSRI and a benzo or only a benzo or only a SSRI might be more viable option.
I take my Xanax for more than a year now have not up the dosage cause it’s medicine I take it for my anxiety and not to get high. It will work for many many years if not forever do I take more form time to time just for the sake of it ? Yeah maybe 3-4 times in a year and only slightly more.
Kratom opium heroin oxy codeine or whatever opioid it’s just isn’t working as a medicine for anxiety. You will want higher dosages and will be less effective. It’s the nature of the substance.
If you really have such a bad case it’s better to see a doctor to treat your anxiety and just take kratom form time to time to get High if that’s your thing

I'm already on both an SSRI (prozac) and a benzo (Klonopin) and it's still not enough. Kratom is better than both of them combined. Also, I'm going to have to get off Klonopin someday because if I don't I'll probably get dementia, so my days on it are limited.

However, my doctor says he'll switch me to Gabapentin which he says can also help with anxiety and I know from people's stories on here that Gabapentin is very good for Kratom and opioid WD so there's that.

When I'm on Kratom I am actually a happy person with a positive outlook. When I'm not on it I worry constantly and feel super depressed. I mean I know from experience that I can actually do things I'd have A LOT of trouble with when I'm on it. For example, I can teach English classes on it. I mean I am capable of teaching them off it NOW, but at first I wasn't, and it made a huge difference.

But you are right that it loses its efficacy over time. That's why you have to stop to regain tolerance, and if SR-17081 is as good as everyone says then it will reset my opioid receptors which is incredible.

I just really can't over emphasize how much Kratom helps with my issues.

But that being said, I'm not sure that I'll really just let myself become dependent. I mean right now I am and I'm not looking forward to the WD. At the very least I will continue to use it for fun. I haven't made a decision yet as to what else I'll use it for.

 

[Mycophile]

Kratom WD isn’t so bad I would use it almost constantly if it didn’t taste so bad and wouldn’t have a problem to go through a WD again.

No, it's not (though I'm on Klonopin which makes it easier), but working long hours and doing things I like like martial arts and driving 2 hours rounds trip etc, those are the things I can't usually do when in WD.

I've been through WD a million times though. It's time to do it again, preferably starting tomorrow...

 

[General alcazar]

Taper is based on when withdrawal symptoms start, usually every 5 hours for me, and the process takes 2-4 weeks. I think you’re really overthinking all of this…

 

[Mycophile]

Taper is based on when withdrawal symptoms start, usually every 5 hours for me, and the process takes 2-4 weeks. I think you’re really overthinking all of this…

I overthink everything lol. It's one of the main reasons I love Kratom so much because it stops the overthinking dead in its tracks.

 

[likeakite]

The last few days I was all manic and high on Kratom and thinking how great it would be to just be on it all the time for the most part but become a "master at tapering" so I can get off whenever I want, but I have to ask:

1) Since I know I would almost certainly allow my dosages to get higher over time (this also means I'd no longer be using extracts, which I am doing now), isn't there the very real possibility that I could get in deeper than I expected and then not be able to get myself to really taper off when I want to?

A) I mean, how much harder is it really to taper off of, or simply cold turkey stop, lets say, a 15 gram a day habit you've had for 1 year vs a 5 gram habit you've had for one month?

I know that the answer would be somewhat subjective, and I have gone through WD when I was stupidly taking like 30 grams a day (but I wasn't on those doses for more than a week, I'd just keep stopping and going through WD and then resuming) but is it really a lot harder to stop when you've been dependent on it for longer and at higher doses?

And I'm particularly talking even more about THE LENGTH of the habit.

B) Even if the dose is the same, will the WDs be THAT much worse if you stop a 10 gram a day habit that you've had for 6 months vs one you've had for one month? Is there a point where you feel that the WDs don't necessarily get worse cause they're already as bad as they can get?

Again, the only reason I don't know these answers is cause for years I've had this pretty weird habit of only using like a few days in a row, then stopping and getting WD and getting through it, then waiting a bit and starting again, rinse and repeat. I've never actually tried to taper. It's always been cold turkey.

But if I could really learn to taper and be confident in it, maybe I could allow myself to use Kratom as a medication where I can be on it for like a month or two at a time before tapering for a break.

I just want to know if I'm fooling myself or not, because if the potential WD eventually won't get worse past a certain point then I might as well stay on longer before the inevitable break and enjoy the benefits.

Perhaps it does get worse if you've had a longer and bigger habit but some of you guys taper off before it gets to the point, or else you are used to stronger opioids (I'm NOT) so it doesn't really bother you?

If your a master at tapering any daily dose would be a breeze But.....Things that tickle opiate receptors can be a bit harder but some people can and some cant. Go for it you might be one of the lucky ones. A scale is a must to be accurate and taper with the same batch/strain. You could always score a subby or two and no need for taper. No precip withdrawal either.

 

[likeakite]

I overthink everything lol. It's one of the main reasons I love Kratom so much because it stops the overthinking dead in its tracks.

It is a powerful friend to have amazing

 

[likeakite]

Maybe if I hadn't ended up on methadone, and then buprenorphine I too would have escalated my kratom dose? I do recall giving up on kratom as soon as I was blessed with these powerful opioids for chronic pain. Once in a while I drop a teaspoon. I would have to do it more often to tell if it actually has an effect. My dream is that the kratom has an effect even with a 16mg/day bupe habit. Like maybe kratom's different pharmacology touches on receptors left untouched by lord bupe?

yes kratom has alkaloids that do all sorts of wonderful things. Its so amazing for its ability to stop suffering of any kind

 

[carrie_nations_ghost]

This post is for anyone who has been using Kratom fairly regularly for at least a year or more, especially for mental health issues like anxiety and/or depression.

So, I've been enjoying it sporadically for about ten years, and it works better than anything else for my anxiety and depression. I'd really like to just make it my medication, but there's a whole bunch of reasons why I feel like this isn't possible for me, so I'd like some realistic opinions on whether or not you think I can learn to work around these issues. I might forget some stuff and come back and repost.

But first, I realize that I'd have to stop using extracts. I've never used 7-OH and plan on never using it, but I LOVE OPMS Black in particular. Plain leaf used to sometimes feel just as good, but unfortunately now I've gotten into this stuff. So yeah, lets pretend I stopped using extracts, since I know it would be necessary.

Here are the problems I've had with Kratom and which I see as being hard to work around:

1) I've never gotten good at tapering (never really tried) and I'm almost completely non-functional when I'm in WD. I'll either get hypersomnia and be sleeping constantly and always tired, or I'll get insomnia and be tired for that reason. Also, the WD lasts longer than it ever used to. It now doesn't show up till like day 4 or 5 and seems to last about 10 days. I'm always just stopping cold turkey and I know if I want to work it into my life I'd have to learn to taper.

I'm thinking I could just let myself get dependent and practice tapering, but is that a good idea? I'm not sure it is...

2) Do you guys feel like the longer you've been dependent the worse the WDs are, or is there a part where it sort of evens out? Like, the most days I've ever taken it in a row is 17, and I didn't find the WD to be worse than when I take it for like 5 days in a row. Cause if the longer you take it the worse the WDs get, to the extent that like, say, if you've taken it 2 months in a row you're going to have MUCH worse WD that lasts weeks, then that's no bueno.

3) I usually can't sleep unless it's worn off like 5 hours prior to bedtime. This is a problem most don't have. A lot of people say they can't sleep WITHOUT taking it. However, for some weird reason like a few months ago I had a couple days where it didn't cause that problem. I don't know why, but this is hard to work around. Any advice?

4) I don't want bad long term effects. Like, I'll openly admit that I've developed some bladder issues where I wake up to piss like 3 times a night, and SOME people have theorized that this is because of Kratom and that it damages the bladder. There are posts on here where people say that it does this, but does it really? Could my bladder issues be unrelated? (And it's NOT BPH. I've had it checked with a urologist).

I just don't want to find out some day that I've got weird issues cause of it, but then again, all drugs have side effects. I'm dependent on Klonopin which is more addictive and know I'll have to get off someday. But Kratom has like over 50 alkaloids and we just don't know what they do.

5) I'm afraid of doctors finding out I use it and that I could need drugs that interact negatively. I refuse to tell any doctor I have used Kratom. This is especially the case cause I got a prescription for naltrexone years ago in order to be able to force myself to take breaks, and it works really well so long as I make sure that I am COMPLETELY through the WD before taking it because obviously you can get precipitated WD.

I now somewhat regret that doctors can see on my chart that I am prescribed it. If anyone ever asks (I've only been asked like once or twice) I'd say it's for alcohol and that my alcohol problems are now under control. That way IF they were considering prescribing an opiate for pain they wouldn't necessarily deny me, but that is a concern, especially cause I do martial arts and have had several injuries and I know I'm gonna have arthritis in my knees and I also have cervical disk disease in my neck.

So yeah, Kratom use is less the issue if I am not ALWAYS dependent like right now, but I could see it being an issue if I can't get off it and I'm questioned by doctors in a situation where i might need their help for something that could interact negatively with Kratom.

6) It's always being banned in different states. I've stocked up, but for some reason most of what I have isn't that effective, which is odd since I bought those kilos from a vendor that was ranked as like #3 in the US. But I don't like the idea of being dependent on it and knowing it could suddenly be taken away.

7) I do martial arts like BJJ, and that has caused me to develop cervical disk disease in my neck. I get neck pain daily and do PT 5 days a week, and I've only done BJJ while on kratom a select number of times. It's never been an issue, but my concern is that I could potentially be less aware of what does and doesn't hurt and push myself too hard and get another injury.

Do you guys think that's likely or do you think Kratom isn't SUCH a strong pain killer that usually if I was doing something that really hurt too much that I'd realize and stop doing that particular movement?

Anyway, those are most of my concerns. I'm thinking I could try an experiment where I just let myself become dependent on Kratom (Only plain leaf so I'd have to stop extracts and get my tolerance down) and then practice tapering off. I'm thinking that maybe if I became super confident in tapering and felt that I could function ok while in the middle of a taper that I'd be less concerned about dependency.

Cause when a good dose of Kratom hits it's like I barely even have anxiety or depression. I feel like I'd be capable of so much more in life because of how much it improves my state of mind.

But no matter how many times I hope that I can pull it off, each time I get dependent on Kratom I inevitably find out that it stops working, I then stop and go into WD, and that it just doesn't work as a daily medication for me. The analgesic pain killing effects will continue to work, but the mood boost just doesn't.

At the very least I will enjoy it from time to time, but it's so frustrating not being able to just use it medicinally. Maybe I just haven't tried hard enough to become confident in tapering and functioning while on a taper. That would certainly help.

Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated.

I've used daily to manage chronic pain since 2013.

I am dependent and have experienced withdrawals when hospitalized for Covid, but it's hard to say what misery was w/d and what was sepsis ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On one other occasion, when in rehab for alcohol dendence, I did experience w/d but they were relatively mild -- but again, I'd just detoxed on a cardiac ward for five days doped to the gills on benzos and still wanting very much to just die. I only experienced the kratom w/d for another day or two after that. It was not fun but it was not so miserable I was unable to participate in groups and whatnot.

The choice for me is between the kratom + THC self-medication regimen I've worked out, or opioids via a pain clinic, or being in constant pain severe enough to interfere with the tasks of daily living.

Which means I *will* have a physical dependence on something, that's just all there is to it. I made the informed decision to become dependent on a substance that didn't keep my embalming table occupied with ODs.

The idea of it suddenly being taken away is frightening for me, for sure, but more because it allows me to function than fear of withdrawals. Withdrawals suck, but I can function mostly, and compared to alcohol withdrawls they're a spa day.

Cross-tolerance to other opioids is definitely the biggest issue that has come up for me. I recently tore the shit out of important things in my knee and was given fentanyl in the OR and post-op, and it made me a little warm and fuzzy but it did not touch the pain like it should have. The oxycodone they sent me home with kind of felt like I was thirteen again splitting a vicodin three ways with my besties.

I have never found that the analgesic effect is so great that I'm in danger of injuring myself or further damaging existing injuries, but I did experience that problem with prescription opioids back in the day. Kratom takes the edge off my constant wrist-and-hand pain enough to not spend my day wanting to strangle 90% of humanity or chop my own arms off at the elbows, but it doesn't block the "ow quit that dumbass" pain signals from new injury.

In other words, it works on the pain my brain is already really, really used to, but not new stuff. (Ironically, I would not need any of this if I had not been dismissed as a drug-seeker when trying to get a doctor, ANY doctor, to take me seriously back when my radiuses stopped growing in adolescence.)

I still find that the euphoric/mood elevating effects hit with the right strain and dose, just not as strong as when I first began using it. This is to be expected. It is also less noticeable on days when I take my ADHD medication (adderall); I find that white and green strains kind of help with the ADHD, too.

My primary care doc is great, and I am up-front with her about my self-medication, but I don't necessarily disclose it with other doctors or specialists because I don't know their attitudes on self-determination and harm reduction.

 

[Mycophile]

I've used daily to manage chronic pain since 2013.

I am dependent and have experienced withdrawals when hospitalized for Covid, but it's hard to say what misery was w/d and what was sepsis ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On one other occasion, when in rehab for alcohol dendence, I did experience w/d but they were relatively mild -- but again, I'd just detoxed on a cardiac ward for five days doped to the gills on benzos and still wanting very much to just die. I only experienced the kratom w/d for another day or two after that. It was not fun but it was not so miserable I was unable to participate in groups and whatnot.

The choice for me is between the kratom + THC self-medication regimen I've worked out, or opioids via a pain clinic, or being in constant pain severe enough to interfere with the tasks of daily living.

Which means I *will* have a physical dependence on something, that's just all there is to it. I made the informed decision to become dependent on a substance that didn't keep my embalming table occupied with ODs.

The idea of it suddenly being taken away is frightening for me, for sure, but more because it allows me to function than fear of withdrawals. Withdrawals suck, but I can function mostly, and compared to alcohol withdrawls they're a spa day.

Cross-tolerance to other opioids is definitely the biggest issue that has come up for me. I recently tore the shit out of important things in my knee and was given fentanyl in the OR and post-op, and it made me a little warm and fuzzy but it did not touch the pain like it should have. The oxycodone they sent me home with kind of felt like I was thirteen again splitting a vicodin three ways with my besties.

I have never found that the analgesic effect is so great that I'm in danger of injuring myself or further damaging existing injuries, but I did experience that problem with prescription opioids back in the day. Kratom takes the edge off my constant wrist-and-hand pain enough to not spend my day wanting to strangle 90% of humanity or chop my own arms off at the elbows, but it doesn't block the "ow quit that dumbass" pain signals from new injury.

In other words, it works on the pain my brain is already really, really used to, but not new stuff. (Ironically, I would not need any of this if I had not been dismissed as a drug-seeker when trying to get a doctor, ANY doctor, to take me seriously back when my radiuses stopped growing in adolescence.)

I still find that the euphoric/mood elevating effects hit with the right strain and dose, just not as strong as when I first began using it. This is to be expected. It is also less noticeable on days when I take my ADHD medication (adderall); I find that white and green strains kind of help with the ADHD, too.

My primary care doc is great, and I am up-front with her about my self-medication, but I don't necessarily disclose it with other doctors or specialists because I don't know their attitudes on self-determination and harm reduction.

Yeah, your situation is different because of your level of pain and my desire to consider it for psychological/neurological stuff. However, that will probably unfortunately change as I get older with my cervical disk disease and the arthritis I'm told I'll have in my knees. I hope it's not too bad. I do constant physical therapy for that shit.

But yeah, I'm also worried about telling doctors. So you only tell your GP, but don't you think she could potentially put it in the computer that you use Kratom and other doctors could find out and judge you? That's my concern because I go to a medical group with doctors who work together and also especially cause I have a prescription for naltrexone. I got it years ago to have so I wouldn't need will power to resist booze and kratom, and it's helped, but now I'm worried about being judged and denied opioids if injured again, especially since I do martial arts which has made me injury prone and Kratom is being banned in all these states which I fucking hate.

And why did the Oxy hit you so hard when other opioids don't and your receptors are probably use to opioids cause of kratom? I mean oxy is way stronger but you said Fentanyl didn't work and that's stronger too.

Also, when you took the Oxy how come you didn't then get hooked on that too? Were you just super careful with it?