Pseudoephedrine Scheduling Changes

[Splatt]

The sale of pseudoephedrine products has been linked in SA with a dramatic increase in break-ins and ram-raids believed to be associated with the "ice" epidemic.

Since this new system, queensland chemist break-ins, ram raids and armed robberies are now a near every day thing. Putting staff at more risk than before.

I am sick of being treated like a criminal when I want a fix for my hayfever, some pharmacists are real fucking smart arses about it and I feel like punching them in the face sometimes, with replies like "what do you want this for?" "umm, hayfever, look at my eyes and hear my to to breathe...." "Okay well i'll let you have it this time but next time you have to use phenylephrine or go see a doctor for [expensive] preventing steroid sprays [with more side effects]" Fuck that!

Oh and guess what, Phenylephrine is now as restricted as paracetamol and iboprofen. It is being stolen from supermarket cough syrups and easy to obtain tablets to create speed with a dangeroiusly low and impure yield, yet still has the same price on the street. This stuff hardly does anything when used, but criminal/cooks don't care because addicts and users will still buy it, and even inject it without thinking its any different, which is very dangerous.

 

[onemorehit]

these products hahve been restricted for about 4/5 years in nz.

 

[Splatt]

Here's a bit of a story for you all.

If a chemist ananlyses you and just decides to fill out a Other Prescription Info form without asking for I.D., which means it doesn't go through a computer. Pseudo products stay at the same price. BUT if you go through the computer and they are sus you are a pseudorunner or dodgey, they nearly double the price.

 

[djsim]

Here's a bit of a story for you all.

If a chemist ananlyses you and just decides to fill out a Other Prescription Info form without asking for I.D., which means it doesn't go through a computer. Pseudo products stay at the same price. BUT if you go through the computer and they are sus you are a pseudorunner or dodgey, they nearly double the price.

Mate the best way to make sure you can get pseudoephedrine (PSE) for your allergies is probably to always go to the same chemist. And if one chemist won't help, go on to the next until you find a chemist that will help. It's fucking ridiculous what some of the shop staff in pharmacies put people thru, but I've worked in pharmacy long enough to realise that the govt has just passed the buck to pharmacists/pharmacy workers for regulating pseudoephedrine. The prevailing attitude is to deny if in doubt because:
A the govt pushes this point strongly
B there is so much stuff going on in a pharmacy, the last thing you need to be doing is checking everybody to see if they're legit.

I can spot the runners a mile off, and so can any other good pharmacist. More times than not, a defensive attitude to the pharmacist (no matter what the circumstances) tends to imply you are lying or in the wrong. Just go in and ask for what you need. Ask to see the pharmacist directly (never the shop girls), and say to clearly what you need, what youve used before, and what you've found to be effective. The rule of thumb is, the younger the pharmacist, the more zealous they are to enforce every goddam regulation to a T.

Also, you may as well kiss Telfast Decongestants goodbye cos noone on their right mind sells them anymore (for several reasons, first and foremost being the lack of technical know-how for PSE extraction). Also, if its just the pseudo you need for allergies, settle for the 500mg paracetemol/30mg PSE tabs instead of the straight 60mg PSE tabs.

The next step is a mandatory national database for all PSE sales. Following the introduction of that measure, will no doubt be the widespread use of robbery and ramraid tactics in order to fill the void.

They never learn do they?

 

[tryfound]

Has anyone else tried the 'new formula' Codral? I believe they use Phenylephrine as the replacement...but it's dirty shit. My heart starting beating irregularly and a kept thinking there were shadows/creatures behind my vision.

And to top it off my nose did not dry up at all. Why even sell it? Even popping double the standard dosage does nothing except make you feel worse.

edit: I'm a bit slow, hehe. At least others agree

 

[Splatt]

I've used upto 400mg of Phenylephrine seeing if it had any effects like its close cousin octopamine, which it didn't. I think the medicinal dose is supposed to be 5-10mg? The garbage barely even clears my nose. It's a bullshit product and pseudo is the only thing besides speed that will unblock your nose. Oh, and speed/ice/meth pharmecutical dose wise, is much much cheaper than buying any of these products. Buy a point or two and use about 5-10mg when needed, it won't really do much effects wise, since street purity is so low, but it will clear up your nose. Better used in "ice" form as base doesn't store the best.

 

[Splatt]

Also, you may as well kiss Telfast Decongestants goodbye cos noone on their right mind sells them anymore (for several reasons, first and foremost being the lack of technical know-how for PSE extraction). Also, if its just the pseudo you need for allergies, settle for the 500mg paracetemol/30mg PSE tabs instead of the straight 60mg PSE tabs.

I like 60mg pseudo with an old style anti histamine, Amcal orange gels are good. The longer lasting new style anti histamines like AllergyEze and Crayityne work sometimes for me, but that means I have to buy a pseudo product as well, and I don't like paracetamol, I already use enough in Panamax 15mg codeine tablets, don't need anymore for my liver. And I like being a tad drowsy if im going to have pseudo which could possibly keep me up at night when I'm in hayfever mode. I normally have 180mg of pseudo over the day and 12mg of chlorpheniramine

 

[djsim]

I've used upto 400mg of Phenylephrine seeing if it had any effects like its close cousin octopamine, which it didn't. I think the medicinal dose is supposed to be 5-10mg? The garbage barely even clears my nose. It's a bullshit product and pseudo is the only thing besides speed that will unblock your nose. Oh, and speed/ice/meth pharmecutical dose wise, is much much cheaper than buying any of these products. Buy a point or two and use about 5-10mg when needed, it won't really do much effects wise, since street purity is so low, but it will clear up your nose. Better used in "ice" form as base doesn't store the best.

LOL, that's fucking hilarious. That's one good way to beat the government at their own game huh? Fuck, ya know you're probably right, it'd be easier to get a gram of ice before it would be getting a gram of pseudoephedrine (PSE), since quantity limits for OTC can't exceed 720mg PSE/packet (12x 60mg PSE tabs).

As far as phenylephrine is concerned, I think the pharmaceutical industry is well aware that phenylephrine is a substandard product, but it's the only alternative to ephedrine, PSE, and or l-methamphetamine (as in the oldschool Vicks inhalers). The main things phenylephrine has going for it:
1. cannot be manufactured into methamphetamine (yet!) as is the case with PSE
2. each packet of 24x 5mg tablets = 120mg stimulant (in the case that it was able to be synthesised into methamphetamine)... or just 8% (by weight) of total stimulant/ effective dose as PSE has, or 16% of ephedrine
3. has decades of empirical data/research which supports its safety


HOWEVER, phenyephrine (PE) is absorbed very poorly...somewhere around the 20% mark. So 80% goes to waste. PSE, l-desoxyn, ephedrine are all absorbed extremely well.

Phenylephrine is absolute shit and any chemist will say so, but as you may gather, methamphetamine is becoming an epidemic worldwide, so it's a difficult position pharmacy finds itself in

 

[Splatt]

Phenylephrine can be turned into a shitty stimulant, its done around here and the outcome of whatever it is very weak, Half a gram needs to be injected for it to do anything. I've talked to a cooks brother about it and he says he gets kids to knock off phenylephrine cough syrups on supermarket/corner store shops, and the ones just at the counter. He didn't give much info on it but they sell it as base and make people very angry, it is probably highly neurotoxic. This could all be dealer talk but the guy's got away with cooking meth when he was raided because it didnt test positive to any scheduled amphetamines, and he didn't say he was selling it for consumption or as speed.

I think it's main use was to sell it as orange/yellow base, which once had a good reputation of being chargey and strong (ox blood blah blah dealer talk crap, hundred impurities more like it) and mix very minute amounts of real methamphetamine into it, then blame the junkies/daily users that its their tolerance, so they keep buying it. The guy even sold it as "speed that doesn't make you go crazy and psychotic", yeah because its got about 2% meth in it with a bunch of weird, untested half-way there pehenthylamines.

I hate speed/meth cooks/dealers, and I pretty much hate the drug all together now, its the one drug I want the police to go after, rather than MDMA or psaychedelics or cannabis etc. Because it's just getting severley impure, cut and toxic and causes a lot of theft, violence and healrth issues.

I'd rather it be back in the 90's of heroin. Meth is ruining this country's night scene and communities that never used to have massive drug problems, only weed. Weed only makes you violent if you're chronically addicted and run out, and you're prone to that type of behaviour. Now theres meth bingers and alcohol bingers just going around stomping on peoples heads or bashing people up for nothing, or a dollar. It will get a hold of most people if they smoke or inject it. The IV rush is too nice, and with real meth at a high dose the rush is better than a MDMA peak. (not not the effects after)

 

[djsim]

Phenylephrine can be turned into a shitty stimulant, its done around here and the outcome of whatever it is very weak, Half a gram needs to be injected for it to do anything. I've talked to a cooks brother about it and he says he gets kids to knock off phenylephrine cough syrups on supermarket/corner store shops, and the ones just at the counter. He didn't give much info on it but they sell it as base and make people very angry, it is probably highly neurotoxic. This could all be dealer talk but the guy's got away with cooking meth when he was raided because it didnt test positive to any scheduled amphetamines, and he didn't say he was selling it for consumption or as speed.

I think it's main use was to sell it as orange/yellow base, which once had a good reputation of being chargey and strong (ox blood blah blah dealer talk crap, hundred impurities more like it) and mix very minute amounts of real methamphetamine into it, then blame the junkies/daily users that its their tolerance, so they keep buying it. The guy even sold it as "speed that doesn't make you go crazy and psychotic", yeah because its got about 2% meth in it with a bunch of weird, untested half-way there pehenthylamines.

The DEA's Microgram report did an analysis of the reduction via the hydriodic acid/red phosphorus or iodine/red phosphorus method of manufacture for phenylephrine (PE), as one would typically use to convert ephedrine (E) or pseudoephedrine (PSE) into methamphetamine. The actual product is 3-hydroxy-N-methylphenethylamine (AKA 3-(2-methylamino-ethyl)-phenol). See the report here

I've done a few searches as of late for the product of the PE I/RP reaction, but to no avail. I think it's kinda self-defeating for the authorities to categorically state that PE cannot be converted into drug of addiction, when could be a plausible scenario, especially when one keeps in mind that the advent of Euphoria (4-methyl aminorex, 4MAR) was from tinkering with the ozaline ring of pemoline, thereby making a drug with abuse potential many factors times greater than pemoline. The future of designer drug stimulants has already laid itself down over many, many years... and the trend is quite clear in depicting that the future of synthetic stimulants will be so numerous, that we'll wish we could go back to good old days when a bad Ecstasy tablet was only laced with adulterants like ketamine or speed, which at least aren't severly neurotoxic (such as the case in the early 80s when sloppy cooks gave their buyers Parkinson's Disease in the space of a week when they cooked up MPPP (POTENTLY neurotoxic) instead of MPTP, a pethidine/mepiridine anaologue. I digress though, this is enough for another thread entirely...

Regarding the PE I/RP method, what does surprise me is that the financial incentive in using PE seems doubly backwards, not only is the end-product shit, but the cost of tablets is going to be anywhere up to 8 times as expensive (since 5mg PE = 60mg PSE = 30mg E). However I guess the incredible ease of availability with PE is some kind of financial offset, and if naive buyers will it... well, all is fair in (illegal) drugs and war.

I hate speed/meth cooks/dealers, and I pretty much hate the drug all together now, its the one drug I want the police to go after, rather than MDMA or psaychedelics or cannabis etc. Because it's just getting severley impure, cut and toxic and causes a lot of theft, violence and healrth issues.

I'd rather it be back in the 90's of heroin. Meth is ruining this country's night scene and communities that never used to have massive drug problems, only weed. Weed only makes you violent if you're chronically addicted and run out, and you're prone to that type of behaviour. Now theres meth bingers and alcohol bingers just going around stomping on peoples heads or bashing people up for nothing, or a dollar. It will get a hold of most people if they smoke or inject it. The IV rush is too nice, and with real meth at a high dose the rush is better than a MDMA peak. (not not the effects after)

My sentiments exactly. I've been down the road with heavy meth use, and I'll be the first to agree that meth is an extremely enticing drug, most likely due to the fact that smoking seems so inocuous (the Hawaiians started buying ice instead of marijuana in the late 80s, and in the space of 10 years the whole island went to hell). I've been clean going on a year yet every fucking day the habit will rear its ugly head... it's nasty. Once you start chasing the rush it takes over all the other stuff that is going on with life. Couple that with a 3 day sleep/comedown, and you can easily, easily fall into an addiction when you really think you've got it all in check. And if you fall into IVing the shit, you are well and truly in over your head. The instaneous rush is just like you described it, the most intense instaneous rush you'll ever experience... but afterwards, it just leaves you awake and empty with no euphoria, unlike MDMA which I find pleasurable after its initial rush.

It's a shame that the PSE scheduling is doomed to fail from the outset, not because the plan is flawed, but because the implication is... laws will never govern human nature. Need proof? Take a look at the 13 years of prohibition from 1920-1933

 

[Splatt]

Some really good posts there, mystery poster.. I have a feeling your an old member?

 

[djsim]

Nah, first time member, but an avid forum reader for many years.

 

[djsim]

The DEA's Microgram report did an analysis of the reduction via the hydriodic acid/red phosphorus or iodine/red phosphorus method of manufacture for phenylephrine (PE), as one would typically use to convert ephedrine (E) or pseudoephedrine (PSE) into methamphetamine. The actual product is 3-hydroxy-N-methylphenethylamine (AKA 3-(2-methylamino-ethyl)-phenol). See the report here

...

Regarding the PE I/RP method, what does surprise me is that the financial incentive in using PE seems doubly backwards, not only is the end-product shit, but the cost of tablets is going to be anywhere up to 8 times as expensive (since 5mg PE = 60mg PSE = 30mg E). However I guess the incredible ease of availability with PE is some kind of financial offset, and if naive buyers will it... well, all is fair in (illegal) drugs and war.

Yep, there is a financial advantage in cooking up 3-hydroxy-N-methylphenethylamine (AKA finished-PE) via the reflux reduction of PE via the I/RP method , that being that the reaction is incredibly facile compred with the reduction of PSE/E. In fact the researches simply placed the PE in situ with no pressure or outside heat source and within 24hrs all of the PE reactant was converted. Jesus, I thought meth manufacture was chemistry for idiots... this is chemistry for retarded inbred chimpanzees. As well, the extraction of PE from tablets is as easy as it was back in the late 1970s for PSE/E extraction... a simple methanol extraction does wonders according to researchers.
So all in all, you can make a legit looking product in a day, with absolutely no fuckup possible.
The removal of the -phenolic -OH is also seemingly impossible, as the ease of online synthesis searching for such a reaction would no doubt have turned up a possible pathway.
I'll bet you could do without the reflux and sell the PE ready for injectable as is, since the "rush" experienced would be due to adreneric alpha receptor activation and the sharp increase in systolic blood pressure. Sounds nasty. It's win-win for the drug companies eh?

Really makes you wonder how they get the public to believe that certain chemicals can are ''evil'', when the only difference between them is measily 6 atoms (OH, H and CH3 are what differ between reduced-PE and meth). IMO, they're all rotten drug dealers. I can't see any major difference between the doctor who pushed me onto dexamphetamine and the dealers who sold me methamphetamine. <<insert speil here>>

 

[tryfound]

Once you start chasing the rush it takes over all the other stuff that is going on with life. Couple that with a 3 day sleep/comedown, and you can easily, easily fall into an addiction when you really think you've got it all in check.

I think anybody who has finally had a wakeup call with meth abuse can relate to that. The 'rush' is the only thing I've ever liked about it, and I always think to myself that I wish I could smoke something that gave me that rush and only last a few hours like MDMA. That would be the perfect drug.

edit: Have I just described crack? If so I would look into switching to it.

 

[stealthtrucker]

So can ANY PSE products be bought without consulting the pharmacist?

Anything at all that you could just go in and ask for no questions asked or simply pick up from a shelf yourself? Maybe a weak concentration?

It would take a lot longer to get the required amount for any would be cooks but at least it could still be done.

Or is it ALL now pharmacist/doctor only medicine?


For example, I believe you can buy codeine/apap tablets 8mg but for 30mg panadiene forte you need to see a doctor? (that's just an example)

 

[Splatt]

Nope, anyrthing with pseudo has to be tghrough a pharmacist. Sometimes though they don't put it through the computer, they just ask for your details, or make up fake ones after you leave the shop and writer them down in a book or on those "other prescription info: papers.

 

[djsim]

Nope, anyrthing with pseudo has to be tghrough a pharmacist. Sometimes though they don't put it through the computer, they just ask for your details, or make up fake ones after you leave the shop and writer them down in a book or on those "other prescription info: papers.

Jesus Splatt, these pharmacies are really giving you a hard fuckin time with PSE aren't they? I have never seen anyone's details put thru the computer, even when there's an obvious "Sudafed running operation" (spotted extremely easily) being hit on the store, all ID's get recorded and transferred to Pseudowatch with descriptions. Sometime's just for shits and giggles I'll say "yeah, I remember all you guys coming thru at the other pharmacy I work at. Anyway, hope you feel better." -- absolutely does their head in

In answer to the above question, you may find some pharmacies will still stock psuedoephedrine (PSE) containing products that can be sold without pharmacist approval... namely certain syrups and liquid capsule preparations are thought to be less of a danger than Sudafed. But these products are still behind the counter out of reach, they are in the S2 category though which (unlike S3) does not require pharmacist approval for sale. This will change though.

Whilst I don't condone nor promote meth manufacture, I think many of you (like Splatt) actually genuinely require PSE for legit reasons, so I'll list some pointers:

• clearly state (to the pharmacist directly) what your symptoms are, what you've used before, and what you have found most effective. If offered phenylephrine instead, explain that you and the pharmacist both know PE is totally ineffective (in a polite way)
• Try and avoid younger pharmacists as they are much more zealous in enforcing rules
• Visit the same pharmacy so they know you -- this is the best way by far
• Go to your doctor and have him write you a script .. no worries whatsoever
• Always carry ID... if you have nothing to hide, what's the problem?
• Consider the PSE tablets combined with paracetemol, as they are viewed as a lower risk product compared to Sudafed. 2 of these tablets = 1 Sudafed + 2 Panadol, so basically you'll get the same amount of PSE plus 2 panadol to kill the pain

In all honesty guys, goto your GP, get a script for Sudafed 30s or whatever, and be done with the hassle. Easy.

 

[Splatt]

Its law in QLD I think for the computer database, most places do it anyway. Even northern parts of NSW done it when I was down there trying to get some because they said Ive had it too many times this month and my details were passed onto police.. for having hayfever. lol

If i wanted to manifacture meth I'd get some meth freak to pickup a bunch of pseudo imported from some asian country, for a couple of ounces, far out. Not pay what the meth will cost to sell when made and make meth for a non-profit hobby. lol

 

[Splatt]

Robbery of pharmacy, Calamvale: Police are seeking public assistance to locate three men believed to be involved in a pharmacy break-in shortly after midnight this morning. Initial investigations indicate the men entered via a sliding glass door of the Soul Pattinson chemist, at the corner of Nottingham and Beaudesert Roads, Calamvale. Cold and flu medication was stolen, but the majority of these tablets did not contain pseudoephedrine.

QLD Cops

Stupid criminals, or the evidence phenylephrine is being used to manifacture amphetamines?

 

[Splatt]

My mother just got The same packet of pseudo containing tablet I got a month or so ago at the same chemist. Since I was young he asked me what I wanted it for "I said well, my face is swolen and I use it to clear my nose as no other products work" He asked for my ID then charged me three times as muchas my mother paid today.

This guy is obviously making money off people he thinks are runners. He also said two times when I bought them that my details go to the police, in a very rude manner. And said we know people use them to make speed, while staring at me rudely. Felt like puching him in the face. I rang up and complained and the girl there (not pharmacist) said they will check the computer records and "fix me up" next time, if they don't I'll probably tell the police they sell to runners for an extra fee. SICK of being treated like a meth cook when I get hayfever / sinus attacks and pseudo is the only thing that works besides illegal street drugs. I'm even thinking of looking into very potent RC's such as DOC for medicinal use, if I could ever find that in Australia again. Using around 100micrograms seems to do the job for a much longer time, without stopping you from sleeping and does not change your mindstate or make you trip as the dose is so low.