Opioids precipitated WD! oh noes

[mr. mudd]

I was on about 120mg of methadone and I only had to wait two days. the suboxone didn't feel like it was helping much for about a week but I was no worse off either. in fact, I'm pretty sure it would have been far, far worse without the sub. the sub was speedy like coke, but after about a week of insomnia and RLS my body got used to it and I could catch a couple hours of blessed sleep per day after taking it (when I wasn't working). I found that 4mg was the best dose, but I didn't want to get too used to it so I tapered down to 2, 1, 0 every five days or so.

the great thing about it (and don't get me wrong: I fucking hate sub) is that once you're on it you're kinda stuck. sure, you could use on top of it but it's not going to do what you want. so I suffered like a bastard for three weeks. still sucks after three days at zero, still feels like I just dropped about six hits of LSD and I'm just about to start tripping balls. but I'm not about to suffer for three weeks or whatever for nothing. also my veins are getting shot anyway, so fuck it.

Thanks SW and BP for the info. Like I said before I was most certainly grossly misinformed. I thought the naloxone itself was the opiate "blocker" so to speak. Perhaps I have had this expirience due to the fact that when I had taken subutex I wasnt nearly dependant on opaites as I was when I took the suboxone (that or I may have used it properly and waited long enough before dosing and when I took suboxone I did not). Either way I am glad that now I have a better understanding.

Methadone has a much longer halflife than heroin correct? So if you must wait 72+ hours after a methadone dose to take bupe, how long should you wait after heroin? Now I know everyones body is different ect ect. But is there a general rule of thumb about how many hours or something you should be into WD before taking your bupe?

 

['medicine cabinet']

so here it is a day later andi feel like i was hit by a truck lol. my wait time was only like 10 hours, im thanking my lucky stars that it was a fraction of a pill...tho if it was more i might hace known it wasnt an opana. my sister said she had no idea it was in there and that she thought she used it a long time ago. now if she was a real addict she would NEVER lose a piece f anything haha.

also the reason nalaxone is added to suboxone is so it is an "abuse deterent" to people that would think about injecting it. the rumor would get out that you cant shoot them because they have stuff in them that will make you ill. but really like everyone has stated, its the bupe that does it. obviously had i known it was really a piece of subutex i would have flushed it, because i didnt doubt that small amount could make me really ill for a few hours.

i knew bupe was really strong but good night, the small amount on the 110mgs of methadone was the most intense WD for about ten hours till the bupe started to wear off. and as a matter of fact, tried a 40mg opana last night. not impressed. but im sure its because my tolerance is so high.

so remember, its not the nalaxone, its the bupe!

PS mods if you wanna go ahead and close it no worries, i just wanted to put it up for HR sake for anyone who thinks its the nalaxone in suboxone that makes you ill, its the bupe itself.

 

[sniperhavoc]

Brokedown has the pharmokenetics right. Bupenorphine has a much higher affinity to the mu receptor than those methadone, naloxone, oxycodone, morphine. The protocol for a patient that is on bupenorphine and needs traumatic care and rapid analgesia is for a rapid admnistration of Fentanly and a Mu agonist (morphine) until patient stabalization. Then a drip of a mu agonist like morphine is left on the patient since the bupenorphine is a powerful antagonist with semi agonist activity with a long half life. Best advice from a former junkie and health care worker if you administer bupenorphine for recreational use.... only is you have no mu agonists coursing through your system therefore remember that a half life is only when half the drug is excreated.....I would wait 4-5 days, just my two cents.

 

['medicine cabinet']

i think that small dose of bupe has finally left my system. i have fel weird ever since this happened. I was horribly depressed and pissed off. my modd had been turned totally negative and i had no idea why i was feeling like that, so i assume it was from the precip WD?

it took 4 days to have my methadone dose make me feel normal again, that small amount of bupe did such a number to me. it would have been interesting to be studied during the experience, like have blood drawn to measure what level of bupe was in my system.

i almost feel like it messed up my brain lol. could it be that the bupe is still active enough days later to still make my methadone dose seem weaker?

 

[moonshield06]

Ok, to clear up some misinformation of this thread(I thank others who have already pointed it out), BUPE is what will cause PWD, not naloxone. Bupe has the higher affinity for your receptors and will knock out any methadone left in your system, this is why you were sent into pwd.

There are two different scenarios here. One will make you PWD, and the other will not.

If you take your FULL AGONIST opiate FIRST, without allowing it to clear your system, this is what will cause withdrawals. For a fast acting opiod like oxycodone, usually 12-14 hours(24 hours to be 100% safe) is suffice for it to be completely out of your system, and at that point it is perfectly safe to take buprenorphine.

The next scenario is: If you take buprenorphine, and FOLLOW it with a full agonist opiate, you will NOT go into any sort of withdrawal, because the bupe already has a firm latch on your receptors(but not all in most cases) and it will pretty much swat away any incoming agonist opiods from getting to your receptors. This is why most people don't "feel anything" if they take a strong opiate with suboxone already in their system.

With methadone, it's usually best to wait at least 48+ hours before ingesting any kind of buprenorphine! Due to methadone's painfully long half-life.

So to summarize: If you take suboxone FIRST, followed by a full agonist opiate, you are IN THE CLEAR. What will happen though, like I said, is that you'll barely feel the opiate since bupe already has 95% of your receptors tied up.

If you take an opiate FIRST, and do not wait the desired time for it to leave your system depending on that particular opiate's half-life, you WILL suffer from PWD because the bupe will come in and kick out the remaining opiate molecules in your brain's receptors.

Short acting opiates:

Oxycodone
Hydrocodone
Heroin

For all of these, wait a minimum of 12 hours, but the more the better, before ingesting any kind of bupe. I do not know the exact half-life on OPANA ERs as that's been my drug of choice lately, but with those I suck the coating off until it's white, and clean the rest of the gel off before I crush it down and snort. Even though opana's high lasts significantly longer than that of oxycodone, I can still get by with taking a bupe about 14 hours afterwards and I feel fine. Do not take my word on that though, as I can't say for sure what opana's half life is. This is just whats worked for me.

Long acting opiates:
Methadone: 48 hours MINIMUM before ingesting buprenorphine.
Fentanyl: I've heard it's best to wait damn near 72 hours depending on the type of fentanyl being used, and how it's being applied/ROA, etc.

I hope this helps.

Opiate-> Suboxone = PWD(if you don't wait out the half life)
Suboxone -> Opiate = You're A OK but the effects of the opiate will be greatly diminished depending on your dose of bupe, and how long you've been taking it.