Miscellaneous Potential psychological harms of psychedelics, and why I will never try them!

[JackARoe]

I read every post. I keep coming back to the same thing. Psychedelics are tools. Like let's say a hammer. You can take a hammer and build a house. Or take that hammer and hit someone on the head.

None of these tools are for everyone. They helped me for 47 years used on occasion. But I do know people that should not trip on psychedelics. A few we found out the hard way, and others never tried. People should know themselves, be cautious and not get caught up in what other people do. It is all individual choices. There is no right or wrong with that pertains to everyone. There are real valid reasons why there are enthusiasts for the people they help.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I read every post. I keep coming back to the same thing. Psychedelics are tools. Like let's say a hammer. You can take a hammer and build a house. Or take that hammer and hit someone on the head.

None of these tools are for everyone. They helped me for 47 years used on occasion. But I do know people that should not trip on psychedelics. A few we found out the hard way, and others never tried. People should know themselves, be cautious and not get caught up in what other people do. It is all individual choices. There is no right or wrong with that pertains to everyone. There are real valid reasons why there are enthusiasts for the people they help.

If it can be done without revealing their identity, do you mind describing in a bit more detail, what exactly happened to those you think shouldn’t of taken psychedelics? for example, do you think it was because they had pre-existing mental disorders or were they legitimately traumatised by the psychedelic experience.

 

[crazyhairman]

Probably

 

[Neuroprotection]

I once read an article that describe the 2020 pandemic lockdowns as an imposed psychedelic like experience. does anyone agree with that?
Personally, it was a very unique experience with a sensation of things being strange and deeply emotional especially at the beginning. apart from that, I didn’t really find it to resemble anything which I’ve heard about psychedelics. However, that may well be. because I just enjoyed life pulling all nighters and watching TV with family, ridiculously large binges on junk food and having no commitments, including no work and no study.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Anyone else fascinated by the role of 5HT2A receptors in mood and behaviour.
I’ve always wanted to try a potent and highly selective 5HT2A antagonist to see how a drug that theoretically is the opposite of psychedelics would make me feel. however, I recently found out that. search compounds have already been tested in humans and they have no immediate psychoactive effect. they were developed as a treatment for Parkinson’s disease related psychosis but I think they were discontinued because of poor efficacy. I think they are still under investigation for serious anxiety disorders and for insomnia where they have a lot more promise.
Interestingly, even for these indications they haven’t progressed that far in medical trials but some researchers have a unique theory as to why. since people can’t feel the effects of 5HT2A antagonist, they may internalise the belief that they are not effective.
Aside from that, there’s the fact that 5HT2A receptors have constitutive activity meaning they can signal even when not bound to any Ligand so probably serve an important brain function. even more interesting is that this constitutive activity as well as binding to serotonin does not produce hallucinogenic/psychedelic effects. even some LSD analogues can strongly activate this receptor with no psychedelic effects.
that’s because psychedelic effects require A specific type of binding which triggers a specific downstream pathway, which then goes onto cause disturbances of glutamate and produce the psychedelic effect.
Even better, the non-psychedelic 5HT2A signalling pathways share some similarities with D2 receptor signalling such as activation of GSK3, plus 5HT2A can promote dopamine release and dopamine signalling/function in the brain. in regards to why 5HT2A antagonism can be quite effective as an antidepressants strategy, this could be partly due to off target effects. For example, antagonists of this receptor also 10 to strongly antagonise 5HT2C. this receptor normally suppresses dopamine release, so when it’s blocked, much larger amounts of dopamine can be released Than normal in response to desires or rewards.
Adding to the topic of the enormous benefits of non-psychedelic 5HT2A activity, it is thought that inositol can produce it’s antidepressant benefits via this pathway.

 

[JackARoe]

If it can be done without revealing their identity, do you mind describing in a bit more detail, what exactly happened to those you think shouldn’t of taken psychedelics? for example, do you think it was because they had pre-existing mental disorders or were they legitimately traumatised by the psychedelic experience.

I have started typing up the few times I saw issues and want to go over them and give my opinion. This thread is somewhat detailed so I will add that in and what I think. Going over so many years I remembered a few instances. No identities will be known as most freak outs were a long time ago pre internet.

I'll be back and edit this thread once I do that. Could be interesting.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I have started typing up the few times I saw issues and want to go over them and give my opinion. This thread is somewhat detailed so I will add that in and what I think. Going over so many years I remembered a few instances. No identities will be known as most freak outs were a long time ago pre internet.

I'll be back and edit this thread once I do that. Could be interesting.

Thank you so much for that. I’m sure it’ll be very interesting, I feel that in the world of drugs/psychoactive substances, listening to peoples experiences is just as valuable as scientific research

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

I read every post. I keep coming back to the same thing. Psychedelics are tools. Like let's say a hammer. You can take a hammer and build a house. Or take that hammer and hit someone on the head.

None of these tools are for everyone. They helped me for 47 years used on occasion. But I do know people that should not trip on psychedelics. A few we found out the hard way, and others never tried. People should know themselves, be cautious and not get caught up in what other people do. It is all individual choices. There is no right or wrong with that pertains to everyone. There are real valid reasons why there are enthusiasts for the people they help.

right....but all in all - there's a lot of ppl that shouldn't do any drugs at all because they're a fuckin mess no matter what - just like some ppl shouldn't drink at all either

so that applies to everything

 

[JackARoe]

right....but all in all - there's a lot of ppl that shouldn't do any drugs at all because they're a fuckin mess no matter what - just like some ppl shouldn't drink at all either

so that applies to everything

So true!! We all know a few.

 

[Neuroprotection]

hope no one takes this as scaremongering, put the link below contains someone’s personal experience about how DMT ruined their life. strangely, they didn’t actually have a bad trip, it was only after that they began questioning reality to the point of insanity. I found a large number of anecdote similar to this, but unfortunately, I can’t find them anymore. it took me over an hour of searching on the Internet to find this article alone. so here it is.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I’m sure we all know about the existence of DMT in the brains of humans and the idea that it might be produced by the pineal gland. scientists don’t know anything about its role in waking consciousness/behaviour but some of them entertain the theory of psychedelic enthusiast that DMT may be modulating our current consciousness and reality via the 5HT2A psychedelic mechanism. i’m not a scientist, but I do disagree with this premise based on the fact that strong selective 5HT2A antagonist don’t alter consciousness in humans.
Could DMT be modulating our behaviour via other receptors like sigma1 on which it is actually thought to act just before being rapidly degraded? absolutely, but even that would probably be a subtle though by no means significant effect.
On the other hand, I do see how an accumulation of DMT could contribute to hallucinations, disassociative symptoms, anxiety and psychotic experiences associated with major life events or mental illnesses. actually, I read a really interesting article. which explained how A disturbance in the serotonin to melatonin conversion pathway could contribute to the symptoms of autism and related behavioural disturbances via psychedelic like effects. apparently, instead of serotonin being converted to melatonin, serotonin is diverted to methylation and deoxygenation pathways that lead to extra DMT synthesis. The authors also stated that severely autistic and other mentally ill patience demonstrated symptoms and produced artwork similar to those under the influence of psychedelics.
I need to find and reread the article and I’ll definitely share it here once I find it.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Here’s the article I was looking for.

It’s good if you want to read all of it, but you can just skip to the section on DMT in autism

Updated View on the Relation of the Pineal Gland to Autism Spectrum Disorders

Identification of the biological features of autism is essential for designing an efficient treatment and for prevention of the disorder. Though the subject of extensive research, the neurophysiological features of autism remain unclear. One of the proposed ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Neuroprotection]

The Potential Link Between Self-Stimulatory Behavior in Autism and Elevated Dimethyltryptamine or Other Amines - MosaicDX

Self-stimulatory behavior in Autism Spectrum Disorders is common. It is often associated with sensory problems linked to auditory, visual, and/or tactile hyperresponsive/imbalances. In many circumstances, these problems manifest as visual side-glancing, odd finger and hand movements, fixation on...

mosaicdx.com

 

[pupnik]

I am extremely skeptical about Endogenous DMT @Neuroprotection

Please note that the first article proudly presents theory with illustrations suggesting endogenous DMT has certain effects on Autism Spectrum etc.
This article references another article as proof of the finding that endogenous DMT exists and is significant, but if you check the reference, you will find that it is not experimental proof but also is a review of 69 other articles which DO NOT PROVE endogenous DMT in the Pineal or Brain at even a tiny fraction of a percentage of psychoactive concentration

The abstract quoted below for the reference cites shortcomings in the 69 articles surveyed - it does not confirm that there is endogenous DMT at psychoactive levels. This in my opinion is an abuse of citations and fake information by the authors of the article and by the community at large.

The Psychedelic community has been grasping at 3rd eye substantiation correlating Pineal Gland (which validly is a light sensitive non-focusing 3rd eye, discriminating sense organ related to day night and sleep cycles (hence all the convo about melatonin which is real)) and Comments by famous drug users echoing other drug users about endogenous DMT (the so called spirit molecule).

However, the issue about Excessive irregular spine dendritic spine growth is significant, and more study about spine growth is required. My work indicates that spine growth is dependent upon synchronous activation, so rather than a chemical agency, I would look particularly at any physical anomoly related to sensation and the condition of cortical tissue.

Three indole alkaloids that possess differing degrees of psychotropic/psychedelic activity have been reported as endogenous substances in humans; N,N‐dimethyltryptamine (DMT), 5‐hydroxy‐DMT (bufotenine, HDMT), and 5‐methoxy‐DMT (MDMT). We have undertaken a critical review of 69 published studies reporting the detection or detection and quantitation of these compounds in human body fluids. In reviewing this literature, we address the methods applied and the criteria used in the determination of the presence of DMT, MDMT, and HDMT. The review provides a historical perspective of the research conducted from 1955 to 2010, summarizing the findings for the individual compounds in blood, urine, and/or cerebrospinal fluid. A critique of the data is offered that addresses the strengths and weaknesses of the methods and approaches to date. The review also discusses the shortcomings of the existing data in light of more recent findings and how these may be overcome. Suggestions for the future directions of endogenous psychedelics research are offered. Copyright © 2012 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I am extremely skeptical about Endogenous DMT @Neuroprotection

Please note that the first article proudly presents theory with illustrations suggesting endogenous DMT has certain effects on Autism Spectrum etc.
This article references another article as proof of the finding that endogenous DMT exists and is significant, but if you check the reference, you will find that it is not experimental proof but also is a review of 69 other articles which DO NOT PROVE endogenous DMT in the Pineal or Brain at even a tiny fraction of a percentage of psychoactive concentration

The abstract quoted below for the reference cites shortcomings in the 69 articles surveyed - it does not confirm that there is endogenous DMT at psychoactive levels. This in my opinion is an abuse of citations and fake information by the authors of the article and by the community at large.

The Psychedelic community has been grasping at 3rd eye substantiation correlating Pineal Gland (which validly is a light sensitive non-focusing 3rd eye, discriminating sense organ related to day night and sleep cycles (hence all the convo about melatonin which is real)) and Comments by famous drug users echoing other drug users about endogenous DMT (the so called spirit molecule).

However, the issue about Excessive irregular spine dendritic spine growth is significant, and more study about spine growth is required. My work indicates that spine growth is dependent upon synchronous activation, so rather than a chemical agency, I would look particularly at any physical anomoly related to sensation and the condition of cortical tissue.

Your understanding of articles including their types and reliability is much better than mine.
I just want to check I understood your response correctly. are you saying that you are sceptical That endogenous DMT plays a role in the normal experience of waking human consciousness?
if so, are you saying that the psychedelic community have jumped on the endogenous DMT bandwagon to prove the above mentioned point?
If so, these are also my thoughts too and I agree with you.
If I’ve misunderstood what you’ve said, please forgive me and correct me.
On a sidenote, I think the best argument against The hypothesis that our reality is controlled by endogenous psychedelics is what I’ve said in my previous posts. highly potent and selective. 5HT2A receptor antagonists have no psychoactive or noticeable behavioural effect in humans or animal subjects. this is an argument I came up with myself, but i’ve never got a response whenever I put it out there.

 

[pupnik]

@Neuroprotection
OK, so, what I mean specifically is that endogenous DMT (at any psychoactive level) is a HOAX - and that the researchers investigating it are trying to seek support for the legendary idea of it being "the spirit molecule" which would somehow ratify long held beliefs about many ancient shamanic ideas.
AND that the article referenced was written after misinterpreting findings.
AND that the findings were more in the genre of "yes we scientists looked, but what we found was not very interesting".

Other lore about the pineal gland has been circulating for a century suggestive that it validates mystical theories about the third eye being the soul or the seat of consciousness. Biologically the pineal is a vestigal 3rd eye, and several fish and reptiles have a third eye which monitors shade and light but does not observe activity within the field, just changes from dark to light and vice versa. Naturally that evolves to a melatonin day night modulating organ.

More akin the the "eye of wisdom" third eye mysticism is the function of the frontal and prefrontal cortex which does help us discriminate between what is interesting in life's situations and what is not interesting even when irritating or sweet. (wisdom because we do not always go for sweet or swat at irritation)

In my readings over the past few years, I have only found evidence of endogenous DMT at very low levels in intestinal samples. The levels would be too low to have any cognitive impact and nobody has any reasonable idea why it shows up from time to time, It could even be a temporary metabolite of intestinal bacteria, or the body's reaction to the endogenous bacteria.

 

[Neuroprotection]

@Neuroprotection
OK, so, what I mean specifically is that endogenous DMT (at any psychoactive level) is a HOAX - and that the researchers investigating it are trying to seek support for the legendary idea of it being "the spirit molecule" which would somehow ratify long held beliefs about many ancient shamanic ideas.
AND that the article referenced was written after misinterpreting findings.
AND that the findings were more in the genre of "yes we scientists looked, but what we found was not very interesting".

Other lore about the pineal gland has been circulating for a century suggestive that it validates mystical theories about the third eye being the soul or the seat of consciousness. Biologically the pineal is a vestigal 3rd eye, and several fish and reptiles have a third eye which monitors shade and light but does not observe activity within the field, just changes from dark to light and vice versa. Naturally that evolves to a melatonin day night modulating organ.

More akin the the "eye of wisdom" third eye mysticism is the function of the frontal and prefrontal cortex which does help us discriminate between what is interesting in life's situations and what is not interesting even when irritating or sweet. (wisdom because we do not always go for sweet or swat at irritation)

In my readings over the past few years, I have only found evidence of endogenous DMT at very low levels in intestinal samples. The levels would be too low to have any cognitive impact and nobody has any reasonable idea why it shows up from time to time, It could even be a temporary metabolite of intestinal bacteria, or the body's reaction to the endogenous bacteria.

Thank you for explaining that. I fully agree.
Do you think my argument about the inability of potent and highly selective 5HT2A antagonists to alter our sense of reality or even to produce a noticeable psychoactive effect, is a valid argument against the idea of endogenous psychedelics?

 

[pupnik]

well there has to be endogenous psychedelic kicking in during emotional states, but the existence of receptors for natural and unnatural chemical psychedelics only proves that having evolved by random mutation, these receptors have not killed us as a species.
I am glad that they have randomly evolved. like extra fingers.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

hello everyone. I know this is a very sensitive and emotive subject for some people, But its something I’ve been thinking about for a very long time and I feel it’s very important that we can discuss it in a respectful manner and develop our knowledge through exchanging opinions and possibly even personal experiences. i’ve always been fascinated by psychoactive substances especially by how their pharmacology influences their psychoactive effects and what this means for those under their influence. interestingly, there is one class of drugs that I grew to dislike the more I read about them. These are the hallucinogens, in particular the classical psychedelics(5HT2A agonists) even at the age of 15 when I was most fascinated by psychedelics and was in love with the idea of a non-addictive yet very powerful psychoactive experience, I always got a feeling of nervousness and unease as well as depression, whenever reading about them. when I would hear people talking about their experience of psychedelics, I would feel some sense of creepy/eerie Energy, it’s really difficult to describe. these feelings have been reinforced over the years. The more I read about psychedelics, and their ability to alter consciousness and shatter perceptions, as well as dissolve the ego, The more I feel they can be very dangerous to the stability of one’s psyche. i’ve read several stories about psychedelic experiences ruining previously healthy peoples lives and leaving them questioning their reality to the point of considering suicide. others say they became deluded and stopped interacting with friends/family because they felt like they had acquired some special wisdom and was superior to them. below, I will list some of the opinions I have developed through my reading over the years in the hope that we can share our thoughts and have an informative discussion on an area of psychedelics I feel is somewhat taboo.

1) The emotional/Consciousness altering effects of psychedelics are far more profound and Play the biggest role in determining whether a trip is wonderful, horrifying or both. The sensory disturbances/hallucinations are less relevant.

2) psychedelics can cause long-term changes in perception and outlook, making things people once enjoyed, seem pointless or counter-productive.

3) psychedelics may cause some people to start speaking in terms other people can’t understand or find strange. i’m not talking about people under the influence of the drug, or those suffering from psychosis, rather I’m talking about ordinary people who after experiencing a Serotonergic psychedelic trip begin to understand the world very differently and this comes through in the way they speak about life, our purpose, etc. whilst this could be amazingly positive in some cases, for others, this could be disastrous and lead to severe psychological stress as I mentioned earlier.

There’s much more, I would love to mention, but I already have a habit of writing very long posts and this post will turn from an essay into a book.

When looking back, I am 50+ now, taking these drug's in my youth led to these kinda cicumstance's.

After having Kid's, witnessing birth was something I was totally unprepared for. Seeing your wife give birth and all the surrounding noise. Hospital setting. Was not in even comparable with LSD, it was a psychedelic experience although there was less visuals then a psychedelic but emotionally 100 x as deep.

So how do you feel about age and life changing event's and their influence on taking psychedelic's?
Where a 1/4 of a blotter LSD would shatter my brain in chaos before, 150 mcg. of an analogue now is a very comforting feel. Undirected so mostly recreational, but I also gained insight's randomly about thing that were relevant.

 

[Neuroprotection]

When looking back, I am 50+ now, taking these drug's in my youth led to these kinda cicumstance's.

After having Kid's, witnessing birth was something I was totally unprepared for. Seeing your wife give birth and all the surrounding noise. Hospital setting. Was not in even comparable with LSD, it was a psychedelic experience although there was less visuals then a psychedelic but emotionally 100 x as deep.

So how do you feel about age and life changing event's and their influence on taking psychedelic's?
Where a 1/4 of a blotter LSD would shatter my brain in chaos before, 150 mcg. of an analogue now is a very comforting feel. Undirected so mostly recreational, but I also gained insight's randomly about thing that were relevant.

To be honest, I’m still single at the age of 29 and live with my parents and siblings. I thankfully don’t have children and I don’t think I am at all prepared for that yet. with this in mind, I’ve not really had massive life changing experiences like you have.
However, I do become extremely emotional during transitions/changes to my daily routine, work or education.

I’ve probably already mentioned this before, but I experience constant, extreme and unrelenting nostalgia for past events and places where I had a good time or where life was easier. this nostalgia can flare up at any time but almost never ever goes away.
I also freeze when under pressure or stress.
Given my emotional state, I feel like psychedelics would be an extremely risky and possibly foolish experience to pursue.
As for life changing experiences, I can imagine they’ll bring me a lot of pain and regret if not managed properly. Actually, this is one of the reasons I’ve considered living childfree and is something I would want to talk to my future wife about.
I just want to make clear that all tho I like rewarding/hedonistic drugs and hate psychedelics, I don’t actually hate spirituality. for example, I love the sense of eerie excitement and dreaminess One gets on a cold winter night. it’s especially good when trying to sleep and the wind. is howling and rain banging against the window whilst I am warm and cosy inside. I also love the extremely vivid dreams that falling asleep on a high dose of nicotine can give me including some lucid dreams.
I don’t blame anyone for initially thinking this sounds really trippy and psychedelic, but I will explain why it’s nowhere near that.
Firstly, whilst being profoundly deep and emotive, Life changing events and natural spiritual experiences do not incorporate bizarre visual and sensory phenomena like hallucinations and synaesthesia that come with psychedelics. likewise, vivid/lucid dreams including those chemically induced with bedtime nicotine also lack the disturbing sensory and perceptual distortions that come with a trip.
It should also be noted that The visuals and synaesthesia of psychedelics can be traumatising to some users on their own, whilst it is often the case that these distortions can become attached to unbreakable thought loops and difficult emotions during a psychedelic trip.

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but I hope this information helps you better understand my perspective