Miscellaneous Potential psychological harms of psychedelics, and why I will never try them!

[MedicinalUser247]

I believe it's good to experiment with Psychedelic drugs even if it's just once.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Yes @Neuroprotection I think we've passed peak psychedelic-exuberance, thank god. It has been a bit cringey lately to observe the mass bandwagon effect, people jumping on everything from microdosing to fix your life, to psychedelics on the stock market. A lot psychedelic virtue signaling on social media etc.

I mean, I'm a psychedelic exuberant to the core, and I think a lot of people here are, but at the same time we need to recognize the limitations and dangers, which gratefully I think a lot of people on this forum have the maturity to recognize. We were tripping before the wave, we'll be tripping long after.

I completely agree.

I've always been fascinated with psychedelics, but learned early on they are not magical. Later on I learned they are not harmless. Eventually I came to the bittersweet conclusion that they are really just another drug.

They aren't some magic cure to anything, they aren't some portal to higher consciousness (but they can be), they are not anything other than a chemical that alters your brain.

I always thought the microdose fad was cringey as hell and 99% placebo. I keep seeing kids with this crazy idea that they can take acid and suddenly cure some longstanding issue or addiction in their life without any preparation or legwork.

Saying all that, I still love them with a deep sort of love I could only give to a person or pet. They have given me memories that literally nothing else in this world can. I am not a very spiritual or religious person, but the only times I have ever felt close to God was on psychedelics. They are meaningful. They have benefitted me in very real ways that no other drug has.

I truly believe everyone should take a heroic dose at least once in their life.

It helps you grow psychologically.

 

[foodcrisis]

I truly believe everyone should take a heroic dose at least once in their life.

It helps you grow psychologically.

i think it can cause some people to have memories that aren't real, and that can sometimes really mess up a person's life... this is an article that goes back and forth about whether or not people are revealing past trauma or fabricating memories, doesn't really seem to go any where https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/hidden-trauma-do-psychedelics-reveal-memories-or-create-fake-ones/ people on blue light have commented some of my links aren't scientific enough. that's probably one of them.

Later on I learned they are not harmless.

what harm would you say they caused in your life or others you've known of if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Skorpio]

Caffeine doesn't act on the dopamine pathways afaik, it's an adenosine atagonist.
I think nicotine does interact with the dopamine system however, but I'm a bit fuzzy on that.

Caffeine is also a phosphodiesterase inhibitor, so cyclic AMP produced by any other Gs coupled neurotransmitter receptor (D1 dopamine receptors for example), will not be broken down, and the signal from that receptor will be amplified.

It is a reason caffeine has a rather strong synergy with stimulants.

 

[Neuroprotection]

thank you to everyone who highlighted the mechanisms of caffeine, I was already aware of that but the only reason I mentioned caffeine is because it’s The closest thing to a real psychostimulant after nicotine that I’ve ever tried.
My overall point is that caffeine and to a much greater extent nicotine, seem to suppress/affect consciousness in a way I imagine is opposite to psychedelics impacts, at least in some way.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I might be completely wrong with this idea of dopaminergic euphoria/drive being opposite to psychedelic consciousness, so please let me know if that’s the case. Plus, I’ve never tried psychedelics so I could be completely off. however, caffeine and nicotine aside, I feel that indulging in fun/highly rewarding activities or having stress suddenly relieved suppress my overthinking and make me feel less deep/connected. strangely, that’s something I find benefits me immensely, but maybe it’s because I’ve been a chronic Overthinker since childhood.
For all of you who have tried both stimulants or opioids and psychedelics, I recommend taking a minute to imagine The experience of each drug. try to compare them side-by-side with a strong focus on how they affect your consciousness/connectedness to the universe, nature and people ETC.

 

[perpetualdawn]

For all of you who have tried both stimulants or opioids and psychedelics, I recommend taking a minute to imagine The experience of each drug. try to compare them side-by-side with a strong focus on how they affect your consciousness/connectedness to the universe, nature and people ETC.

I haven't used opioids much at all. I'm very averse to them, philosophically and physically. The few times I've had codeine or other medical opioids they make me feel shitty and drugged in a bad way. So I can't really compare opioids and psychedelics in a fair way. But I'm going to anyways since we're in the business of yakking about drugs around here.

My gut feeling is that yes, they are opposed to one another, but not in a way where you can map them on opposite ends of a single spectrum, but in a way where they occupy different terrains that have little in common and can't be fully occupied at the same time. So rather than two ends of a see-saw, they're more like Switzerland and Azerbaijan.

As for stimulants and psychedelics, maybe a bit more possible to put them on a continuum - but rather than a linear space, I see it as more of a multidimensional space with vectors pointing off in different non-opposite directions. Imagine a 3-D space with two arrows, both anchored at the (0,0,0) origin but the arrows pointing off on different directions in that space.

I think the deepest psychedelic headspaces ask for stillness and settling in and are perturbed by stimulation. Yet many psychedelics can also be stimulating - but in a very different way from caffeine that's for sure, maybe more like amphetamines but also unique. And a psychedelic trip can move from sedentary to stimulation and back again. Like a lot of things with psychedelics, its complex, fractal, and hard to pin down. But fun to contemplate.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I haven't used opioids much at all. I'm very averse to them, philosophically and physically. The few times I've had codeine or other medical opioids they make me feel shitty and drugged in a bad way. So I can't really compare opioids and psychedelics in a fair way. But I'm going to anyways since we're in the business of yakking about drugs around here.

My gut feeling is that yes, they are opposed to one another, but not in a way where you can map them on opposite ends of a single spectrum, but in a way where they occupy different terrains that have little in common and can't be fully occupied at the same time. So rather than two ends of a see-saw, they're more like Switzerland and Azerbaijan.

As for stimulants and psychedelics, maybe a bit more possible to put them on a continuum - but rather than a linear space, I see it as more of a multidimensional space with vectors pointing off in different non-opposite directions. Imagine a 3-D space with two arrows, both anchored at the (0,0,0) origin but the arrows pointing off on different directions in that space.

I think the deepest psychedelic headspaces ask for stillness and settling in and are perturbed by stimulation. Yet many psychedelics can also be stimulating - but in a very different way from caffeine that's for sure, maybe more like amphetamines but also unique. And a psychedelic trip can move from sedentary to stimulation and back again. Like a lot of things with psychedelics, its complex, fractal, and hard to pin down. But fun to contemplate.

Thank you for that, that was really helpful. i’m aware that many psychedelics can be stimulating which complicates things as you rightly said. But how about comparing something like amphetamine or cocaine with psychedelics in terms of there impacts on aspects of consciousness like alternative ideas, feelings of connectedness ETC.
The reason I asked these questions is because I’ve heard a few people describing rewarding drugs like stimulants as antispiritual/anti-consciousness. sorry to repeat myself, but I noticed that when I use nicotine chronically, I feel like my thoughts become much less deep and my consciousness is slightly changed in a weird way I struggle to explain. The best way I can describe it is. that whilst I still feel negative emotions as normal, they just don’t get to me. I also feel that I can live in the moment much more and I become preoccupied with rewards, while simultaneously being able to push through boring hard work.
Apologies if I’m confusing you, I’m probably confusing myself as well

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

I dislike that psychedelics are being pushed as 'cures' for depression. Or cures for "addiction".


While I think they can be helpful tools for some one with depression, no amount of tripping has ever "cured" or "fixed" any of my depressive symptoms (low to no energy, no motivation, no pleasure in life, flat-affected demeanor, feeling pointless, etc..). They always return within a few days of tripping for me.

No amount of trips has ever made me stop craving & desiring opioids either.

So I think it's disingenuous to get people to believe they'll be "cured" or "fixed" just by going on a trip. However, I'm totally all for them being recognized as medicines & being somewhat legalized so people can use & access them. Although typically when these kinds of drugs do get "legalized" for medicinal use, they still make it hard to access them unless you're rich, but that's another story.

 

[Kaystheword]

I don't think that's a point of contention at all. In fact, providing a challenge to the stability of one's psyche is a quintessential element of many psychedelics. For many people, that's precisely the point.

Animals reinforce cognitive habits, habits, perspectives, and behaviors as we age. Sometimes those are helpful, sometimes they aren't. Psychedelics like psilocybin that are known for their ability to soften those patterns and provide new perspectives can be valuable for people that are stuck in unhealthy cognitive/emotional patterns. When addiction, depression, PTSD, or end of life anxiety are diminishing quality of life, many people have found value in shaking themselves out of the mental ruts that are causing them distress.

I'm not arguing that anyone should explore psychedelics, but I think it's important to recognize why many people have benefited from them despite some of the legitimate risks that you mentioned. It's a cost-benefit analysis

Totally agree with this.

I inadvertently got mixed up with the new analogue of fentanyl. Really, really bad stuff. I tried and tried to stop and taper, but this stuff is absolute poison and I couldn’t get my brain on the right track to make that change. I finally became so fed up, I dosed myself for 24 hours with psilocybin and it was enough to break me out of that head space. Probably saved my life. Still working on getting off of opiates, though, and may consider ibogaine treatment in the future. I think when you’re facing such tremendous threats against your life, this precise paradigm shift is absolutely warranted and benefits outweigh risk.

 

[Kaystheword]

I dislike that psychedelics are being pushed as 'cures' for depression. Or cures for "addiction".


While I think they can be helpful tools for some one with depression, no amount of tripping has ever "cured" or "fixed" any of my depressive symptoms (low to no energy, no motivation, no pleasure in life, flat-affected demeanor, feeling pointless, etc..). They always return within a few days of tripping for me.

No amount of trips has ever made me stop craving & desiring opioids either.

So I think it's disingenuous to get people to believe they'll be "cured" or "fixed" just by going on a trip. However, I'm totally all for them being recognized as medicines & being somewhat legalized so people can use & access them. Although typically when these kinds of drugs do get "legalized" for medicinal use, they still make it hard to access them unless you're rich, but that's another story.

Have you tried ibogaine? The data seems to point to this being the only known compound that can actually produce corrective type changes in your neural reward pathways. I’m contemplating it.

 

[Methamphetanonymous]

I think it's good to talk about psychadelics honestly. Despite having ridiculous sensitivity to THC and my brain seemingly rejecting any pleasurable effects from it, psychadelics have always been extremely fun and sometimes have given me some nice perspective. Once I discovered my weed problem, I was terrified of shrooms and acid. But as someone who has Autism, I feel my handful of acid and shrooms trips were signifcant in developing my sense of empathy.

But yes they can have some serious consequences if abused, or used by someone unaware of their genetic history or are unprepared and stuck in a bad place mentally.

As I'm here because I'm writing about amphetamines, something interesting I discovered was that despite its reputation of triggering secondary psychosis, amphetamine and its family are third behind THC and psychadelics. I don't think THC is talked about enough in its risk there, especially with huge doses of edibles and concentrates out there now

 

[Methamphetanonymous]

I completely agree.

I've always been fascinated with psychedelics, but learned early on they are not magical. Later on I learned they are not harmless. Eventually I came to the bittersweet conclusion that they are really just another drug.

They aren't some magic cure to anything, they aren't some portal to higher consciousness (but they can be), they are not anything other than a chemical that alters your brain.

I've been on that boat for some time, never fell into the camp that thinks that psychadelics fix everything and everyone needs to do them and if you haven't then your mind isn't opened or whatever.

LSD and psilocybin(only two I've used) both have made it easier for me to recognize aspects of my life that are holding back my happiness, or that are in contrast to the kind of person I strive to be. In fact the three or four times I've taken mushrooms alone, the first hour or two of the trip is usually emotionally difficult, whereas the back end of the trip usually is setting new goals for myself even if they're small. Discovering different perspectives by altering the mind isn't unique to psychadelics

What has proven unique of them in my experience, is how much those new perspectives stick. And how much they usually have value down the road. I think psychadelics can be very special substances in the right context. I think if you're taking them to get fucked up and goof off with your buddies they're great for that too

 

[Neuroprotection]

I dislike that psychedelics are being pushed as 'cures' for depression. Or cures for "addiction".


While I think they can be helpful tools for some one with depression, no amount of tripping has ever "cured" or "fixed" any of my depressive symptoms (low to no energy, no motivation, no pleasure in life, flat-affected demeanor, feeling pointless, etc..). They always return within a few days of tripping for me.

No amount of trips has ever made me stop craving & desiring opioids either.

So I think it's disingenuous to get people to believe they'll be "cured" or "fixed" just by going on a trip. However, I'm totally all for them being recognized as medicines & being somewhat legalized so people can use & access them. Although typically when these kinds of drugs do get "legalized" for medicinal use, they still make it hard to access them unless you're rich, but that's another story.

I’m really sorry to hear about your anhedonia and depressive symptoms. if I remember correctly, you were the one who made a post about nicotine giving you more anhedonia.
This isn’t medical advice, but I want to suggest two options for depression, which you can explore further and try if you haven’t already.
The first is transcranial magnetic brain stimulation which targets the nucleus accumbens and other brain regions to re-awaken their activity to promote healthy rewards seeking and gold directed behaviour.
The second option is to try the MAOI selegiline which is particularly good at targeting dopamine deficiency related symptoms like anhedonia, mental fatigue and difficulty exerting effort. I actually encouraged another treatment resistant depression patient who uses this site to try selegiline and they said it has tackled depression symptoms no other treatment could.
Of course, I can’t promise these will work, but it might be good to give them a try.
You’re welcome to send me a PM if you want to talk more about it.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Totally agree with this.

I inadvertently got mixed up with the new analogue of fentanyl. Really, really bad stuff. I tried and tried to stop and taper, but this stuff is absolute poison and I couldn’t get my brain on the right track to make that change. I finally became so fed up, I dosed myself for 24 hours with psilocybin and it was enough to break me out of that head space. Probably saved my life. Still working on getting off of opiates, though, and may consider ibogaine treatment in the future. I think when you’re facing such tremendous threats against your life, this precise paradigm shift is absolutely warranted and benefits outweigh risk.

I actually agree as well. despite my personal innate fear of psychedelics and the reports I’ve heard., I can imagine how the incredibly powerful and difficult experiences triggered by psychedelics can reinvigorate people suffering from life-threatening situations. I do wonder if psychedelics are more likely to negatively effect people like myself, who like being chilled out and staying in their comfort zone. they are the people I tend to notice report long-lasting negative experiences.
Of course, there is always the chance of amazing positive change from a psychedelic even for someone like myself, but for me the risk is just too great.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

but for me the risk is just too great.

While I don't want to neglect personal differences that essentially define the experience and "habit", this I have been thinking about lately; Statistically you take risk when you indulge in any new drug. People have inbuilt grandiosity and think they can fare without developing addiction and other issues that could realistically happen. In that sense, psychedelics are not particularly bad. But doing psychedelics reels that delusion, one kinda accepts they won't have control. So it might instinctually seem more hazard because you probably have less steps to coming up with issues of the drug, while most other drugs might take longer with that, but might lead there more likely while imagining being in control.

I wish you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Neuroprotection]

While I don't want to neglect personal differences that essentially define the experience and "habit", this I have been thinking about lately; Statistically you take risk when you indulge in any new drug. People have inbuilt grandiosity and think they can fare without developing addiction and other issues that could realistically happen. In that sense, psychedelics are not particularly bad. But doing psychedelics reels that delusion, one kinda accepts they won't have control. So it might instinctually seem more hazard because you probably have less steps to coming up with issues of the drug, while most other drugs might take longer with that, but might lead there more likely while imagining being in control.

I wish you understand what I am trying to say.

Thank you very much for this. I do understand what you’re saying, plus I don’t blame you for discussing complex seems like this. Psychedelic effect on the mind are an extremely poorly understood field even by the most advanced scientist, so everything is practically theoretical at the moment.
I would say in regards to my own drug choices, for example nicotine, i’m fully aware of the risks of addiction. however, I don’t mind being addicted to a drug so long as it’s cheaply or freely available.

 

[Neuroprotection]

here are some links that some of you may find interesting regarding the potential negative effects of psychedelics.

Extended difficulties following the use of psychedelic drugs: A mixed methods study

Long-term adverse experiences following psychedelic use can persist for weeks, months, or even years, and are relatively unexplored in psychedelic research. Our convergent mixed-method study gained quantitative and qualitative data from 608 participants ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Case analysis of long-term negative psychological responses to psychedelics - Scientific Reports

Recent controversies have arisen regarding claims of uncritical positive regard and hype surrounding psychedelic drugs and their therapeutic potential. Criticisms have included that study designs and reporting styles bias positive over negative outcomes. The present study was motivated by a...

www.nature.com

 

[Neuroprotection]

What are your opinions on the relatively selective serotonin release agents, The so-called empathogens. I believe they are commonly lumped together under the classification of psychedelics, although they don’t possess any hallucinogenic/psychedelic effects. since my primary focus is currently on dopamine, i’m not interested in trying serotonergics at the moment. however, I may be open to trying an empathogen at some point in the future if I have something like selegiline on hand to maintain dopamine levels. Serotonin
Has a lot of amazing effects as a neurotransmitter, but my only concern with large amounts of serotonin release is that it can strongly suppress dopamine neuron activity/dopamine release.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

although they don’t possess any hallucinogenic/psychedelic effects

they do, it is just bit more subtle.

Serotonin releasers are a lot more secure way to get high but they don't give you access to the deep end of psychedelia.

3 month intervals between uses of MDMA seems good guideline. It seems that person is pretty damn well off and can trust it is very unlikely any serious negative health effects will emerge. One could use a bit more often also and probably not have any adverse effects if doses are reasonable and there is long breaks, but there is no guaranteeing anything.

MAPS ended using sometimes protocol of 3 weeks breaks and I never heard they had any issues, but they used, I think, 80-120 mg single doses on their research and they probably didn't extend that protocol to last very long times.

I have been told that MDMA slightly elevates dopamine levels, while I have also been told it does not directly do that, I don't know what's the matter about it, but I doubt you necessarily need any selegine.