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Possibly disturbing family history

The BBc recently ran a Nazi season, and I caught this documentary about what it's like to be a relative of one of Hitlers top 5 men, Hoess, Himmler etc. It was really moving and the pain, guilt and shame still run very deep, obviously. Hoess's grandson particularly was struggling to deal with his grandfathers actions, quite painful to watch.

This is only a teaser but worth watching to get a tiny insight into some of the complex issues.

I'm sure if you dug around you would be able to find the whole programme. It was compulsive & really thought provoking viewing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1p6X3v8LFw
 
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I wouldn't be ashamed at all. In fact I find it fascinating. I have an old ancestor that was a pirate in the South China Sea during the late Qing dynasty. Raped and pillaged and fought the British apparently. Got beheaded when he got caught by the British royal navy (which is funny because my grandfather served in the British Royal Navy lol).

Thing is I find it pretty cool as a amateur historian that I had an ancestor who lived through the Opium war and fought on an old war junk. Even though he probably committed horrible crimes against the people he attacked I still find it kind of cool. I'm not proud of his achievements, but I am 'proud' of his status as a feared pirate.

The Waffen-SS were bad asses. Taking pride in their abilities and training is different from taking pride in their "achievements." The German military was so well trained it is hard not to admire their abilities even if they were serving an evil purpose (I personally find their uniforms very sharp, probably the best dressed army that ever existed IMO). I personally find WWII history fascinating and owning a part of that history would be cool.
 
I have a Bachelor's in history. OMG I should be stripped of it, right?

Anyway, what really sinks in my stomach is when I was at my engagement party and my aunt was asking my mother-in-law about her grandmother's kin. My MOL's response was 'oh honey, they're all dead.' It's hard to swallow that a large majority of your extended family is dead because a psycho decided that their 'type' were not desirable. I understand the people in the SS were human and I understand not all of them hated Jews nor necessarily knew the extent of the punishment (what would they do if they did?). However, at the same time I'm not going to focus on the Nazi's 'sharp' dress over the starved, brutalized family of my husband.
 
AmorRoark said:
I have a Bachelor's in history. OMG I should be stripped of it, right?

Anyway, what really sinks in my stomach is when I was at my engagement party and my aunt was asking my mother-in-law about her grandmother's kin. My MOL's response was 'oh honey, they're all dead.' It's hard to swallow that a large majority of your extended family is dead because a psycho decided that their 'type' were not desirable. I understand the people in the SS were human and I understand not all of them hated Jews nor necessarily knew the extent of the punishment (what would they do if they did?). However, at the same time I'm not going to focus on the Nazi's 'sharp' dress over the starved, brutalized family of my husband.
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I understand your reaction. Believe me I do. You're not the only one with family that suffered during the war. My grandmother and great grandmother on my fathers side lived through the Japanese occupation of Hong Kong. While my grandparents on my mothers side lived through WWII (getting bombed and strafed in Shanghai) as well as the horrors of the cultural revolution. They watched family members get shot and watched people starve to death and executed on the streets. It is horrifying, but at the same time I wouldn't get messed up emotionally if say you showed me an old WWII era Japanese officers katana that may or may not have been used to execute Chinese civilians. I would in fact be fascinated by that piece of history. Then again I have an obsession about historical relics. Maybe it is just me.
 
^ Forgive, but never forget.

OP, hang on to the stuff. If you do get rid of it, make sure it goes some place decent like a museum.
 
!!4iV4HF9R34g said:
Also, I can admire anyone who serves a higher purpose. Whether I agree with their purpose or not.
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That makes no sense to me. I value independent thought and morality. What do you think is so intrinsically admirable about serving a higher purpose? And, what do you define a 'higher purpose' as? Anyone can play follow the leader...

L2R said:
to answer your question simply, there is nothing to prevent you from being both critical and loving of your family at the same time. my olds are from the former Jugoslavia areas and so it aint hard to imagine being just two gens from badness. just be glad you are removed from it just enough to not be a contrubuting, and remember that family will always be family.
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
 
I think some people need to look at the fact that historical relics don't only represent its own specific past but also everything else that was going on during that time. Someone might look at Nazi memorabilia and see the great things happening around the world like bringing down Nazi Germany and its allies, saving innocent lives from the destruction of war, the commendatory of the brave individuals who worked together to stay alive in the midst of death all around them, etc., when of course there was things unspeakable happening at the same time. Yeah it wasn't what you'd consider a good time in history, but there were bits and pieces of what was going on that were truly representative of "goodness", even with the unimaginable pain that countless people endured or died from.

One could also see the sorrow behind many German soldiers or workers forced into involvement with the war, contributing to the Nazi war plan, who wanted to be anywhere else but there, or were completely made unaware of the atrocities taking place. That maybe harder to think about if they had a direct effect to your relatively closely related ancestors, but it could help give a bigger and broader imagine of those who may have been forced into an unthinkable situation against their will. Potentially people who don't as often get the understanding or benefit of the doubt that they were dragged under the bus, often ending up dead for something they wanted nothing but to be as far away as they could. Not all of the Germans were bad people, so lets not view all Germans remaining German citizens in that era as despicable people.
 
i'm with amor. give it to a museum or a university. is it really a 'historical relic' when there are still active neo nazi/white power/anti semitic groups operating in this country? the world, for that matter?
 
Kenickie said:
is it really a 'historical relic' when there are still active neo nazi/white power/anti semitic groups operating in this country? the world, for that matter?
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Sorry but how can you even begin to use that rhetoric.. "Hey there are still plenty of active painters operating in the world, so fuck your work Mr. Monet." (I am aware I have exaggerated my point considerably with such an analogy.)
 
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dont worry about your grand dad half of europe share your guilt people tend to forget,england invented the concentration camp and carried out massacres all over the world,america enslaved and tortured the poor africans,in the south they were still torturing them even after ww2!!! FFS!! at the end of the day your grand dad served his country im sure he didnt believe what he was doing was evil and there is no evidence he murdered any one so be proud of his patriotism!! he got in to the ss in the early days he must of been some hard man physically and pyschologically!!
 
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Sorry to nitpick, but both the Spanish (Cuban Ten Years War 1868-1878 ) and the Americans (Philippine–American War 1899–1902) used concentration camps before the British. The British were the ones that coined the english term 'Concentration Camp' in the second Boer War, the previous term being reconcentrados and even then it was a very different usage to what the word is synonymous with now, albeit a very tragic mistake in history, the Boers never having been exposed to dystentery or measles.. but that's going off topic. Supposedly the Russians used concentration camps in the modern sense of the word against the Polish in the 18th century also, but alas I don't know enough about the conflict.
 
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I don't see a problem with having family memorabilia even if it does happen to relate to Nazi Germany. You have to separate yourself from the actions of Nazi Germany and your ancestors. They acted as individuals and there is no way of knowing what was going through their mind during that time period. I wouldn't be to worried about it. Just because you have a family history that involves Nazi Germany does not make you an immoral or unethical person.
 
eireann said:
dont worry about your grand dad half of europe share your guilt people tend to forget,england invented the concentration camp and carried out massacres all over the world,america enslaved and tortured the poor africans,in the south they were still torturing them even after ww2!!! FFS!! at the end of the day your grand dad served his country im sure he didnt believe what he was doing was evil and there is no evidence he murdered any one so be proud of his patriotism!! he got in to the ss in the early days he must of been some hard man physically and pyschologically!!
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periods, man!

ebola
 
yeah, i 'unno about proud, dude. :| back in that day, people enlisted out of fear just as much as a sense of patriotism or duty. it's not a given that their service was honorable. just as it is isn't a given that it wasn't.
 
OP..you love and respect your grandfather and I don't think you should give away his things that were given to you.

The holocaust was a horrible, devastating part of history.

You are not loving, honoring and respecting the ideaologies behind it or what they stood for but good or bad, the holocaust was an important part of history. Have pride in your grandfather for who he is as you know and love him and that doesn't mean you agree with all the ideals behind what happened.
 
I have a diff opinion on this one. I will be very ashamed of it. Yes he is my grandfather but the holocaust was One of the most devastating tragedy in history and no matter how I will look at it, I will never be proud of what my grandfather did killing innocent people. I won't be able to take my mind off these families who were sent to concentrationcamps and treated inhumanely.
 
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I doubt two people in this thread have any significant knowledge on the truth of the holocaust. Everybody watched Schindler's list and called it a history lesson. Disgusting.


Op, you should be immensely proud of you grandfather and his father before him. The fact he has given you a tangible piece of his and your family history, is a beautiful thing. If the man has trouble talking about his past, it may be because younger ignorant generations have lost sight of the fact that winners write history. People have a very skewed negative view of something that he takes great pride in.
 
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