Possibly disturbing family history

[YellowNikes]

My point was not that he was related to them, there is nothing wrong with that. its the sense of respect for his nazi and the nazi memorobilia that bothered me

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

So you wouldn't respect the military achievements of your ancestors if you didn't agree with their war?
People seem to love to keep modern perspective when examining the past.
You've gotta realize that this was normal then. Help hit the nail on the head, I think, when he was talking about how not only was participation mandatory, but the populace was so brainwashed and in such a terrible place at the time, that it was hard to not get swept up. Consider realistically what you'd have done had you been a young boy in Nazi Germany. If all of your neighbors and family and friends were joining the "Cause"? If you were faced with death for disobedience?
Idealism is for college kids, not soldiers and peasants.

 

[GodSpeedK]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. All of us alive today have ancestors who've committed pretty unsavoury acts at one time or another, or we wouldn't exist. It was a pretty fucked up period in human history and I certainly don't condone what German Nazism did for Europe, but what I will say is that you have to remember the context of the times. It's easy for people to judge the Nazis very harshly with hindsight, but if they were in the same position, would they have rebelled or done things differently? Doubt it highly. Anyway, holocaust aside and all that, the SS were an extremely potent force. Gotta respect them for it. I bet that knife is pretty cool as well. Not a bad piece of memorabilia!

 

[L2R]

OP, welcome to bluelight, fellow sydney-sider.

to answer your question simply, there is nothing to prevent you from being both critical and loving of your family at the same time. my olds are from the former Jugoslavia areas and so it aint hard to imagine being just two gens from badness. just be glad you are removed from it just enough to not be a contrubuting, and remember that family will always be family.

 

[Tomer]

Yahh, my apologies to Tomer for letting myself get worked up. I've been kinda angry for some reason the past few days. Nothing personal dude.

Apology accepted. Its just the internet...

Anyway, I don't think you're opinion would be so passive about the Holocaust if you lost family members in it?

Anyway, back to the OP - I think someone else mentioned donating it to a museum? That makes sense to me...Thoughts?

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

Maybe not. But then again, I use drugs despite losing big portions of my family to drugs and addiction.
I'm pretty detached.. I don't think it's really a bad thing. For me at least.

I just honestly don't see how feeling negative helps anything.
So why would I let myself?

I'd rather be proud of what good I can find that ashamed or upset about the bad I see way more often.
Kinda like, not pessimism just realism. Except not exactly ha.

I hope you don't think I'm marginalizing the losses though. And condolences for anyone affected of course.

 

[AminoAcid]

It was mandatory for boys i'm pretty sure and not like you could say no!

Yeah joining the German army/navy/Luftwaffe was pretty much mandatory for >16/17 year olds, but not the SS. The SS was originally extremely hard to get into, you had to be tall, prove your "Aryan" ancestry back 300 years, be physically extremely fit, and mentally tough. If my family had just been in the Wehrmact it would be a lot easier to accept, but SS and Hitler youth means you've "pledged" your life to Hitler unto death (the dagger is the symbol of this).

... its the sense of respect for his nazi and the nazi memorobilia that bothered me

What would you do if your grandpa gave you family memorabilia, would you throw it in the bin? It's not as simple as you think.

So you wouldn't respect the military achievements of your ancestors if you didn't agree with their war?

Yeah the ONLY thing I can admire from it is the skill involved. Eg: When my grandpa first came to Australia in the late 1940s, the Australians were of course incredibly hostile to all Germans. He told me a story of how they always used to get attacked and thrown out of pubs, BUT one night they decided to fight back. One of my grandpa's friend (who was apparantly very short and unassuming) was Waffen-SS trained and apparantly with a flat palm knocked half of one's guys teeth out in one-hit. All the others saw that and backed away. ALL SS-men were required to have black-belt level self-defense. There's something admirable in being so well trained.

I'm just curious why one massacre is deemed inhuman and a shame whilst another is celebrated and is celebrate with palm trees and holidays?

It's a good point and I guess I feel that way because the details are not really known. I mean there's no human face on something that happened like 300 years ago. I guess time is an anaesthetic.

"We shouldn't drown out all records of it".

Exactly. It's much better to talk about these things openly and learn from them, rather than sweep it under the rug and pretend we're perfect. As the great saying goes: "the one thing manking learns from history, is that he doesn't learn from history.

well, my grandfather (who i never met, and who is the reason i was raised bilingual and have a dual citizenship) was a member of the ss-totenkopfverband.

Yeah I've been told they were originally meant to be "reserves" but played pivotal parts in the invasion of France and other areas. My great-grandpa was Leibstandarte SS (He had "the key" on his lapel in the photo I have of him), which along with the ss-totenkopfverband and other SS-men were "the fire-fighters" of the front (partiaularly) in Russia. When the Wehrmacht fled they were the one's sent in, hence the outrageous death-toll. Any weakness was the worst sin one could commit and it was not unusual for an individual to try and take on a tank on his own.

my olds are from the former Jugoslavia areas and so it aint hard to imagine being just two gens from badness.

Thanks dude, I'm actually mainly Melbournian just here to study, but do like Sydney . One of my best friends growing up was a Bosnian refugee. Him and his family were lovely people. He used to describe to me though what it was like seeing people get shot by snipers on the streets when they were fleeing, and the bombs that destroyed his house.

 

[Belisarius]

The Allies were balls-out about denazification in the days after the War, until they realized that A.) there were to damn many former Party members, and B.) they had the Soviets to worry about now, so let's shake on it.

Really, unless your folks were commandants in a camp or members of the Einsatzgruppen et al., I don't think it's worth worrying about. Besides, by the time you're their age their heirlooms will be worth a king's ransom should you feel obligated to get rid of them. For my part, as someone with a lifelong interest in WW II, I think your family's history is fascinating.

 

[AmorRoark]

Uh, from someone who has in-laws who do not have a lot of older family down the line because of the Holocaust I'd say don't enjoy these relics. I frankly find this conversation fairly insensitive thus far.

I'd pass them onto a museum.

 

[L2R]

there's no need for OP to beat himself up over something he had no hand in. he certainly shows no pride in his ancestry. i don't think he would be "enjoying" the relics in any way that promotes what they represent, or brag about them. as horrible and monstrous the events they do represent, they are still substantial historical artifacts. that alone is enough to keep them, imo.

not to mention simply to remember. this is his ancestry. sticking his head in the sand won't make that go away.

 

[AminoAcid]

Uh, from someone who has in-laws who do not have a lot of older family down the line because of the Holocaust

Well my dad's sister (my aunty) whose father was Hitler Youth and whose grandpa was Leibstandarte Waffen-SS just married an Ashkenazim Jew. So yeah I have a devout Jewish uncle, and no-one in my family has the slightest problem with that.

 

[rangrz]

Uh, from someone who has in-laws who do not have a lot of older family down the line because of the Holocaust I'd say don't enjoy these relics. I frankly find this conversation fairly insensitive thus far.

I'd pass them onto a museum.

<snip> The relics harmed no one. OP harmed no one. You where not even born when it happened, toughen up and deal with vague reminders of distant unpleasantness.

 

[MrGrunge]

There are so many millions of people of German descent with a history of Nazi activity. I don't really see this as a bad thing - if you were a German male at the time you were apart of the Nazi regime whether you liked it or not. If you found out that your grandfather was the one loading up the gas chambers or filling in mass graves, I could see that as a definite "dark period" in your family. But simply being an SS officer or a member of the Hitler youth shouldn't warrant any shame or guilt on your part.

 

[!!4iV4HF9R34g]

People are so sensitive. I understand that there are memories that aren't pretty, and that there was a lot of really horrendous deeds done that a lot of people would rather not think about. But the fact is that nobody is going to sweep it under the rug for the sake of your feelings.
Bigotry and hate and violence and ill-will exist. Nobody needs to sugar-coat the truth, and if you take offense to something, the simple solution is to not involve yourself In the situation. And if you must be involved, accept it as what it is.
Holocaust victims are neither the first nor the last demographic to be subject to denegration and hateful attacks, for no reason. If the world is too dark and scary and unpleasant to think about, you're in for a shitty life.

 

[kayladelmo]

If my family were Nazis, well to be honest I would find it interesting and would want to learn more about how they felt about things back then. I think you should obviously keep the memorabilia, it is a part of your family history and that's to be respected. You sound unsure of how to feel about it all. But you can't really control the past or your feelings about it. It is what it is.

 

[AmorRoark]

Would you all say the same thing about whips or shackles if your family owned them because of their slaves? I'm seriously curious. I'd still give it to a museum.

 

[crooked_rain]

Albert Speer, the infamous Nazi architect who was widely considered to become Hilter's successor, is a fairly distant cousin of mine. Who cares? I am not guilty of anything; nor are you.

 

[L2R]

Would you all say the same thing about whips or shackles if your family owned them because of their slaves? I'm seriously curious. I'd still give it to a museum.

yes.

i am interested in history, both the good and the bad. hell, i'd feel the same way about actual used implements of death (weapons/execution tools/torture devices). as abhorent as these things are, they hold historical value.

edit: and modern weaponry doesn't interest me one bit.

 

[Belisarius]

Re Amor:
I don't think that's a fair comparison; those were direct instruments of inflicting pain or humiliation, while paraphernalia's relation to the subject (IMO) is more oblique. Someone brandishing an antique pistol that may have been used to kill innocents, or a sew-on Star of David--that would be unpalatable to me.

That said, I do understand your feelings to some degree. In one of my college classes a few years ago, I was lucky enough to hold a string of (reputedly) authentic "slave beads", which are exactly what they sound like: Cheap, European-made glass beads that were traded with Africans for slaves and other goods in huge quantities. Interesting as I found it as a historian, the thought that some real, live human being may have once been sold into a life of abject misery for something so petty made it utterly repugnant to me, personally, regardless of its historical worth.

 

[L2R]

i would be interested to read more on bel and amor's emotive reactions. i honestly don't share that, the student historian in me wins without contest. any insight in the trigger to those reactions would be appreciatied if either of you don't mind.

such things i wouldn't keep on display or brag about.