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Police Brutality Thread

TheLoveBandit said:
But we are still left with the largest killer of blacks in America being....other blacks. Why is this not an issue? Where are any efforts at play to a) acknowledge this, and b ) address it?
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My personal view is a lot of it is symptomatic of systemic racism to begin with. It absolutely needs to be addressed, but if you treat the symptom and not the disease, it may clear up for a while but will eventually resurface.
 
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JessFR said:
It amazes of that on a drug forum so many people are of a mind that the answer is "just suck up to the law and be more grateful you aren't shot where you stand!"

I get that some people might be arguing what you should do in your own interests rather than how society should actually work in theory, but a lot of it really seems to have this kinda victim blaming tone of "you shoulda let them fuck you over harder, that was your mistake! "
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This is the most logical, intelligent contribution I've seen in a while here. Of course if you don't resist, it will go easier, as people have said. But, at what point do you continue to allow it to keep happening without resisting? And, when you add all of the symptoms of systemic racism together, the police aspect is just one component of many - so it's unfair to characterize it, as some are here, as just "don't resist" or "I'm white and I've had it happen, so what?", how does that factor in to how many times it keeps happening to black people?

Every argument, typically, is just taking one component of overall systemic racism out of context and then criticizing it based on one isolated event. Or, of course, the numbers game.

At the end of the day, all it winds up doing is adding fog and distraction to something.

And here's the kicker, even if you could prove it wasn't (it is real, and you can't), percieved reality is reality, so once the majority accepts it as real, then that's all that is needed to make systemic level changes.
 
This is going to be something that many people here don't want to hear. But it's a fact of life.
Many people just want to demonize cops and absolve all criminals of any blame.
It's transparent. You can't blame the consequences of acting like a cunt on racism. It just hurts your argument and takes away from legitimate racism.
Classic victim mentality and avoidance of responsibility:



There are other and better ways to precipitate change without doing something stupid and risking your life.
 
JGrimez said:
Many people just want to demonize cops and absolve all criminals of any blame.
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So, to be fair, there are probably a portion of people that fall in this category. The problem, and you still can't seem to offer any proof otherwise, is that there is a large percentage of people who have a legitimate issue with the police - how can you believe systemic racism and the symptoms it causes not real? Do you have the capacity to understand that not every human has the same opportunities in life, grew up like you, has the education and knowledge you have, lives in the same geographical area as you, etc? It always seems to be a complete inability to understand there is a whole world out there besides what @JGrimez knows it to be.

JGrimez said:
You can't blame the consequences of acting like a cunt on racism.
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There are definitely some bad people who behave like shit and then try to hide behind racism, sure. But this is what baffles me, you can't be that naive to think this applies to everyone? It's either that, or you're purposefully trying to cloud up the real issue with this rhetoric.
 
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JGrimez said:
This is going to be something that many people here don't want to hear. But it's a fact of life.
Many people just want to demonize cops and absolve all criminals of any blame.
It's transparent. You can't blame the consequences of acting like a cunt on racism. It just hurts your argument and takes away from legitimate racism.
Classic victim mentality and avoidance of responsibility:



There are other and better ways to precipitate change without doing something stupid and risking your life.
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You guys love posting videos of grifters and opportunists who say what you want to say but can't. It's pretty disgusting.

Bootlicking is not a fact of life. It's something you choose to do. I've never once said all cops are bastards , or that all cops are racist. I've said there is a systemic problem that is rooted in our deeply racist history. A problem that we will not start to solve until everyone admits and accepts that it's there.

If you think "doing something stupid" is grounds for a cop to kill you, I just really don't know what to say. George Floyd did nothing wrong other than use counterfeit money, and we don't even know that he intentionally did that or not. Having drugs in your system is not a crime. Anything in his past is irrelevant to what happened that day.
 
He was resisting arrest. They won't release the body-cam footage because it would clearly show this, probably showing anyone in the position of the cops would at least get pissed off from being kicked at. Keith Ellison is a man who should have never been allowed to serve in a position of government.

He was also intoxicated in the driver's seat of a car.
 
Deru said:
The problem, and you still can't seem to offer any proof otherwise, is that there is a large percentage of people who have a legitimate issue with the police - how can you believe systemic racism and the symptoms it causes not real?
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Because I've looked at the evidence and it directly contradicts the BLM narrative. In fact it's so ridiculous that arguing against it makes it look like you love police to some people.
What you are unable to admit for political reasons, and fear of being labeled racist, is that most of the "systemic racism" which you speak of is simply police profiling people based on experience and doing their job more effectively - which is focusing on where most of the crime is committed. Now if someone like yourself was ever to finally admit this is the case - the blame is automatically shifted onto an inescapable, intangible environment created by historical white supremacy - which ironically is kinda racist (not to mention ignoring a massive cause of this entire issue and removing black people's agency in general).

Deru said:
Do you have the capacity to understand that not every human has the same opportunities in life, grew up like you, has the education and knowledge you have, lives in the same geographical area as you, etc? It always seems to be a complete inability to understand there is a whole world out there besides what @JGrimez knows it to be.
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I understand that. I didn't grow up rich. Many, many people have more opportunities than me. Does that mean I should resort to a life of crime?
My path to the top is more difficult than a lot of others. And many people have a more difficult climb than myself.
If you wish to discuss ways to fix situations so that fewer people feel they have no choice but to resort to a life of crime - that's a productive discussion (just don't ask a Democrat for solutions because the cities/states that they run are objectively the worst with conditions for minorities).

mal3volent said:
You guys love posting videos of grifters and opportunists who say what you want to say but can't. It's pretty disgusting.
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I think your characterization is disgusting. Yes I love posting examples that destroy false narratives just like you'd love calling black people "race traitors" for not following a leftist political narrative most disseminated by entitled white people.
I've also echoed everything that he said (minus the N-bomb).

mal3volent said:
Bootlicking is not a fact of life. It's something you choose to do. I've never once said all cops are bastards , or that all cops are racist. I've said there is a systemic problem that is rooted in our deeply racist history. A problem that we will not start to solve until everyone admits and accepts that it's there.
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And I'm calling bullshit on this nonsense, disprovable narrative. The systemic problem is with: police brutality of all citizens, psychopathic officers, lack of training, lack of police accountability and militarizing the police force. As soon as you start to bring this manipulative, divisive agenda of racism into it then you take away from the legitimate issues worthy of fixing. You can't fix "racism" (there are already no racist laws) but you can fix what I've just mentioned.

mal3volent said:
If you think "doing something stupid" is grounds for a cop to kill you, I just really don't know what to say. George Floyd did nothing wrong other than use counterfeit money, and we don't even know that he intentionally did that or not. Having drugs in your system is not a crime. Anything in his past is irrelevant to what happened that day.
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I don't like the rules of the game anymore than you do, OK? But those are the fucking rules and that's the reality of how one needs to act to avoid harm. You change the system from within, you don't be a mindless hero and tackle a policeman (and as if changing the system is the intention of any of these suspects). I believe George Floyd resisted arrest, kicked officers, was vandalizing the car or something. Obviously that doesn't deserve death but let's not deny that making stupid, unnecessary decisions increases your chances of escalating a situation.
 
JGrimez said:
Because I've looked at the evidence and it directly contradicts the BLM narrative. In fact it's so ridiculous that arguing against it makes it look like you love police to some people.
What you are unable to admit for political reasons, and fear of being labeled racist, is that most of the "systemic racism" which you speak of is simply police profiling people based on experience and doing their job more effectively - which is focusing on where most of the crime is committed. Now if someone like yourself was ever to finally admit this is the case - the blame is automatically shifted onto an inescapable, intangible environment created by historical white supremacy - which ironically is kinda racist (not to mention ignoring a massive cause of this entire issue and removing black people's agency in general).
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This is where I feel like it's impossible to further discussions, because you always want to confine things to binary, one way or another. And then you draw a conclusion that if I agree with one correlation I'll somehow completely agree with your views.

Life doesn't work that way.

It's this simple, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Are police doing that because it's necessary, maybe! My over riding point, that you keep ignoring, is that systemic racism plays a role greatly into contributing to this happening to begin with, period. You're looking at how people behave, currently, and judging them on that. I'm asking you to look deeper, and ask yourself why are they behaving that way? I don't think you realize how much I agree with a lot of things you say, but you have them all wrapped up in ways that don't make sense.

JGrimez said:
I understand that. I didn't grow up rich. Many, many people have more opportunities than me. Does that mean I should resort to a life of crime?
My path to the top is more difficult than a lot of others. And many people have a more difficult climb than myself.
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So now imagine you, your family, and your whole community have an almost impossible path to achieve success. What do you expect then? Are you unwilling to admit that this is happening all over this country right now? Add on the stress of all of that, and then being treated like a criminal every time a cop sees you, and explain how anyone could not become angry?

Also, what if crime was the only way to feed your family?
 
Let's say both of your narratives are accurate - what are some solutions?
 
JGrimez said:
what are some solutions?
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Enablement of the lower income bracket. Improved academic and social education from a very young age. Inter-racial socialization allowing better visibility, from a very young age, that all are equal. Forcing TV networks to tell both sides of the story. Forcing social media platforms to fact-check fake/intentionally malicious posts. Take-down of obviously malicious websites and forums. Improved representation at local/regional/national layers. Harsher penalties for hate crimes and racially motivated crimes. Tougher gun ownership laws for the public and reduction of gun-carrying LEOs (LEOs have to undergo regular vigorous psyche profiling before and after being issued guns). More transparency by governments and improved communication between public and government.

Just a few that come to mind without greater thought.

./empeebee
 
empeebee said:
Tougher gun ownership laws for the public and reduction of gun-carrying LEOs (LEOs have to undergo regular vigorous psyche profiling before and after being issued guns).
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Better idea, we stop hiring people to be cops who are obviously completely unfit to be cops.

I honestly don't believe taking away cops guns or issuing them selectively is a good solution. It's a bandaid solution. A lot better would be reforming hiring and training practices entirely so we can have more confidence in all current police.

IMO
 
@JessFR "reforming hiring and training practices" sure but people lie on the job applications and some of those that don't will change during their career. The lowest common denominator towards being issued a gun, ongoing training of how and when a gun should be used and evaluation on whether the person is fit to carry a gun should all be criteria.

In a number of (most?) situations, non-lethal force such as Tasers can be just as much as a deterrent or submission tool as a gun.
 
empeebee said:
@JessFR "reforming hiring and training practices" sure but people lie on the job applications and some of those that don't will change during their career. The lowest common denominator towards being issued a gun, ongoing training of how and when a gun should be used and evaluation on whether the person is fit to carry a gun should all be criteria.

In a number of (most?) situations, non-lethal force such as Tasers can be just as much as a deterrent or submission tool as a gun.
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There are police forces that manage to kill far less people than most American forces, and with less crime.

So there's a way to do it. But it probably requires a whole cultural attitude adjustment.
 
JessFR said:
There are police forces that manage to kill far less people than most American forces, and with less crime.

So there's a way to do it. But it probably requires a whole cultural attitude adjustment.
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I think 'culture' hits the nail on the head as there are numerous factors. Education levels, unemployment levels, poverty levels, ease of gun ownership & crime rates to name a few.

I'm struggling to find cross-referenced information at a global level. Wikipedia has some info but it refers to 'Security Forces', not just police. Statista has some numbers for selected countries. Looking at World Population Review, your post that the US kill more people would then make sense as the US has a higher crime index than, for e.g. Canada or Australia.
 
JGrimez said:
Let's say both of your narratives are accurate - what are some solutions?
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That's honestly the million dollar question. What I was hoping, and it seems to be started, is for those important conversations to take place. And then of course, how encompassing are those conversations going to be? The spotlight is on the policing aspect of it, and just getting change there would be a great start, but it seems like the conversation will be wholly encompassing of systemic racism, which includes just more than the issue of the police.

As was recently stated, it has to be changes on a systemic/societal/cultural level. And that takes the majority to make happen.
 
Some recent posts hit the nail on the head for me. It's not about what is currently happening, and to who, it's about why. Why is it that there is a higher incidence of black people who shoot cops? Why is it that there is a greater incidence of black people living in communities infested with violent crime? Are the cops right to fear black people who look a certain way? Yeah, I'm sure they are, I'd be scared too. But what are the underlying reasons for this cultural disparity and mutual fear? To Headphone's point, what is the reason why a large number of black men dress and act a certain way? Why do more blacks kill blacks than other races? If your reason isn't that there is some inherent underlying racial inferiority at work, then what does it leave? A system that has oppressed a minority (not just one minority) for hundreds of years, and the fallout from that systemic lack of opportunity and mistreatment. Denying that there is a strong element of systemic racism at play is suggesting that black people only have themselves to blame for this situation. We need to be moving forward and doing something about this as a whole culture, as a whole world, not saying "nope there's no problem, they should just pick themselves up by their bootstraps, everyone gets targeted by cops, this is 2020, civil rights was 60 years ago". Playing the blame game isn't helping anyone. And those goes for everyone. But we need to be honest about the reasons for why things are the way they are.
 
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