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Physical dependence on cannabis

^that would depend on how you define physical addiction as discussed above. If you want to argue that it is not addictive because it does not interfere with one's life usually then i'm okay with that but the physical effects upon rapid cessation of cannabis are real just not much compared to other drugs. Still, if we are to stick with the definition, cannabis is physically addictive. You could say the same for caffeine.
 
Cr00k Your right about it. Ive been in your shoes figuratively.
I made a discussion thread on this very topic from the other side about 2/3 years ago.(maybe less %) )
I used my mind power to logically describe my experiences with daily large amounts of cannabis and quitting cold turkey and the effects it had. How the possible "withdrawal" symptoms could be in someone's mentally addicted mind physically manifesting bodily reactions.
It turned into a 4 page war with a bl mod, I won't mention the name of, who apparently is not around anymore.(at least when I tried to find him) He very vehemently defended the position that cannabis is physically addictive. To the point of in my mind proving it.
It is a fact, I read numerous studies produced. He changed my mind, but as you said it is a very benign physical addiction compared to many other substances. So it just creates this war of users arguing it isn't addictive because of their more nightmarish experiences. Does this discussion really add much?
 
I believe cannabis withdrawals are real and I think not everyone has them... but I don't deny it. Like some people have withdrawals from antidepressants and then some don't but its still happens.
 
It is a fact, I read numerous studies produced. He changed my mind, but as you said it is a very benign physical addiction compared to many other substances. So it just creates this war of users arguing it isn't addictive because of their more nightmarish experiences. Does this discussion really add much?
I like hearing that people are still able to change their opinions despite pressure being put onto them by other people in the debate. That's something we should see happen more often. If that's what it took to open your mind towards a more differentiated opinion on cannabis, the flame war was not just for nothing. Just fighting for truth! ;)
 
I believe that cannabis withdrawal is real, in the full medical sense. If I smoke for a few months daily and quit, I notice DEFINANT symptoms of withdrawal. Some of the symptoms I experience include: “feeling on the edge” (kind of like anxiety, but not exactly), taking much longer to fall asleep, profuse sweating while sleeping, intense dreams, and an extreme inability to eat.

Now I claim to be no expert in pharmacology by any means, but don’t we know that the endocannabinoid system helps regulate appetite, stress, awakeness, and other physical and psychological phenomena? If so, when we take in large amounts of cannabinoid agonists over an extended period of time, then our cannabinoid receptors down regulate. So after you stop smoking, your endocannabinoids have less receptors to bind to, and thus experience withdrawl. For example, you smoke some weed, get hungry, tired, and relaxed. Then you decide to stop smoking for a while, and you experience the opposite, no appetite, inability to sleep, and feeling on the edge.

If I am wrong, please do correct me, but isn’t this the basis of withdrawal? Cannabis works like most other drugs, by binding to neurotransmitter receptors. People using drugs like opiates or benzos experience withdrawal through the same mechanism, but the systems they effect (opioid, GABA), have much more “psychological activity.” This results in a withdrawal, like cannabis, just more intense. Just because you can experience withdrawal from xanax, heroin, and alcohol, doesn’t mean you can’t withdrawal from cannabis, caffeine, and tobacco. The only different is in the intensity of withdrawal.

But yeah crook, I agree with you. Many people don’t care to find out the truth, for whatever reason. Perhaps they only experience a very mild withdrawal, due to the large physiological variance amongst people. So when someone says “hey I am withdrawing from cannabis”, they just pass it off as BS. I have been smoking for a little over a year, and was brought into the culture thinking it’s completely harmless, because I thought I did my research. Unlucky for me, both sides of the argument, pro-cannabis and anti-cannabis, are filled with lies and propaganda to further their position (just like anything in life). What we need is more scientific research into this area… fuck I forgot this shit is illegal for some reason.

I am by no means trying to bash cannabis at all; I will probably smoke it on and off for the rest of my life, but a lot of people are just straight up lying to their selves.
Welcome to bluelight! Excellent first post. :) Your understanding of withdrawals is making perfect sense, I'd like to add though that in many cases (=substances) the problem is more complex than simple downregulation of receptors. The result of ceasing to take a substance are withdrawal symptoms which often are in nature "inverse" effects of the drug as you say. It still is a lot more complex than that and not every substance causes such withdrawals. An example would be my complet inability to get proper sleep (past nodding) on opioids and the same phenomenom occuring every time I quit them. Or my munchies when I smoke pot (for short carbs) and my munchies when I quit pot (for long carbs though), that goes past an inversion of effects as well.

Not trying to be a smartass and I am myself far from understanding addiction. I used to think the exact same way as you do which is imho the most obvious and logically conclusive understanding of the process, but not always entirely valid. Again: Welcome to the site, hope you are settling in fine! :)
 
^in my understanding of addiction, something more than just the inverse effects must happen to call it withdrawal (limited understanding). lol it's all semantics i guess but you know with benzos, in w/d you'll get the inverse of effects where you are more anxious/muscle tension/insomnia and then you also get delerious effects, and a whole bunch of weird shit for months. If addiction requires more than just inverse effects upon cessation then maybe it's a more difficult argument to say cannabis is physically addictive.
 
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^in my understanding of addiction, something more than just the inverse affects must happen to call it withdrawal (limited understanding). lol it's all semantics i guess but you know with benzos, in w/d you'll get the inverse of effects where you are more anxious/muscle tension/insomnia and then you also get delerious effects, and a whole bunch of weird shit for months. If addiction requires more than just inverse effects upon cessation then maybe it's a more difficult argument to say cannabis is physically addictive.
"Physical dependence is a state of being that is manifested by a drug class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist."

This seems to be the most widely accepted definition. You can also find this in it's full length on erowid as a pdf (http://tinyurl.com/erowidaddiction).
 
^ i took a read through that and I agree but they do not mention what qualifies as a drug class specific withdrawal symptom. Down-regulation of receptors creates the inverse effects I think but with opiates/benzos/alcohol there are other withdrawal effects which are the result of more than just down regulation of receptors which is what I think is mostly occurring with cannabis but i'm getting way over my head and will have to do more research :)

physical dependence does differ from addiction, if i use cannabis medicinally and I quit all that will happen are the inverse effects whereas with benzos i could have a seizure, cognitive deficincies, and the whole list of symptoms of benzo w/d without actually being 'addicted'. With cannabis it does not affect my life and if i really want to quit i can, so does smoking cannabis really cause addiction or dependence? I guess i shouldn't have termed it physical addiction but in any case i think that opiates/benzos are clearly capable of both whereas cannabis is not quite as clear cut, some people get 'addicted' and there are people who become 'physically dependent' but is that mostly a result of cannabis medicating an underlying or known condition?

edit: had to delete some bullshit. confusing terminology when i was high lol.
 
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on a sidenote, this is focussing on proton pump inhibitors like pantoprazol:
“We find it highly likely that the symptoms observed in this trial are caused by rebound acid hypersecretion and that this phenomenon is equally relevant in patients treated long term with PPIs. If rebound acid hypersecretion induces acid-related symptoms, this might lead to PPI dependency. Our results justify the speculation that PPI dependency could be one of the explanations for the rapidly and continuously increasing use of PPIs,”
Source: http://www.gastro.org/news/articles/2009/07/01/acid-reducing-medicines-may-lead-to-dependency
 
I really don't like the whole mental/physical distinction when it comes to withdrawal symptoms, but yes, I definately do get physical withdrawal symptoms when I abruptly stop smoking cannabis. I feel cold, sore, lose my appetite, have insomnia, even diarrhea, sweat a lot, restless legs, anxiety/nervousness, you name it. It's much milder than the shit I've gotten from benzos opioids, but it's still 100% noticeably there. It really baffles my mind when someone insist arguing about it with me, saying things like "but weed is not addictive! nananaa not possible, all in your head!". Sure, whatever, they can't backup their claims anyway with anything but personal experience as far as I've seen.

Even then, it is serious enough to have influence over my life. Even if I have as little as 2-4 grams of good smoke these days, I have to think/plan ahead because I know when I run out I will have a difficult time. If I have to go 2-3 days without proper (if any) sleep, barely eating anything, feeling really shitty mentally... let's just say it sure as hell won't help if there's something important that needs doing.

Then again, it's usually not my loss if people don't believe me. If someone asks, I tell them what is possible from my experience while at the same time stressing that cannabis still is one of the least harmful drugs known to mankind.
 
I really don't like the whole mental/physical distinction when it comes to withdrawal symptoms, but yes, I definately do get physical withdrawal symptoms when I abruptly stop smoking cannabis. I feel cold, sore, lose my appetite, have insomnia, even diarrhea, sweat a lot, restless legs, anxiety/nervousness, you name it. It's much milder than the shit I've gotten from benzos opioids, but it's still 100% noticeably there. It really baffles my mind when someone insist arguing about it with me, saying things like "but weed is not addictive! nananaa not possible, all in your head!". Sure, whatever, they can't backup their claims anyway with anything but personal experience as far as I've seen.

Even then, it is serious enough to have influence over my life. Even if I have as little as 2-4 grams of good smoke these days, I have to think/plan ahead because I know when I run out I will have a difficult time. If I have to go 2-3 days without proper (if any) sleep, barely eating anything, feeling really shitty mentally... let's just say it sure as hell won't help if there's something important that needs doing.

Then again, it's usually not my loss if people don't believe me. If someone asks, I tell them what is possible from my experience while at the same time stressing that cannabis still is one of the least harmful drugs known to mankind.
I don't think anyone could've put it any better. :)
 
I've always thought that long-term use of Cannabis could cause some physiological dependance, as your receptors and your body are USED to operating w/ lower blood pressure do to the dilation of blood vessels both in the brain and throughout the body.

And sorry, I meant more habituated, not dependent.
 
I think there's enough research, scientific and anecdotal to suggest that cannabis can and will create physical withdrawal symptoms. I don't think that's the controversial part (unless stoners want to deny it in hopes that it makes cannabis seem less damaging).

i'd still say it's not addictive (i think the controversy lies here). It just doesn't give a blast of dopamine strong enough to create that compulsion for it and even if you look at it from other standpoints cannabis just does not grip the user physically the way opioids/benzos do. The underlying mechanisms for addiction are completely different with each class of drugs but there's something about the dopamine flood that causes the compulsions to use, I just don't think cannabis gives enough of that dopamine flood to create the compulsions to use, especially the way that the strong stimulants do or even nicotine.

physical dependence? sure (few days - up to 2 weeks of insomnia, restlessness, anxiety, suppressed appetite, vivid dreams, )
addiction? not so sure

i get the physical withdrawal symptoms as described above, they are tolerable though. You may even have to take a week off from work. But that's still shit compared to any other drug dependence/addiction. If my benzo/opioid addiction was a simple take one week off from work and don't get high then i'd have conquered them into the ground a long time ago. I guess it could be argued that cannabis can also cause PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) and that that is comparable to the paws from any other drug. That's the only place i find similarities in dependence between cannabis/benzos/opioids/stimulants. Fuck you can be dependent on a beta blocker but it really doesn't mean much other than to taper off of it when you want to quit.

SSRI's create a physical dependence and withdrawal without addiction, so if cannabis falls into the same category (and luckily it does not create near as severe withdrawal or dependence) then what's the big deal?
 
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^nicotine withdrawals feel different and usually when a cannabis user who mixes them quits, they will still smoke tobacco anyway. If i run out of cannabis i will still smoke tobacco bongs for the rush and satisfaction it gives me lol. now that's an addiction! If a cannabis user were trying to quit both at the same time then obviously there would be some overlap in the agitation, irratibility department but that's about it imo.

i'll still get the cannabis withdrawal symptoms but if you threaten my tobacco bong supply i will hurt you.
 
I think there's enough research, scientific and anecdotal to suggest that cannabis can and will create physical withdrawal symptoms. I don't think that's the controversial part (unless stoners want to deny it in hopes that it makes cannabis seem less damaging).

i'd still say it's not addictive (i think the controversy lies here). It just doesn't give a blast of dopamine strong enough to create that compulsion for it and even if you look at it from other standpoints cannabis just does not grip the user physically the way opioids/benzos do. The underlying mechanisms for addiction are completely different with each class of drugs but there's something about the dopamine flood that causes the compulsions to use, I just don't think cannabis gives enough of that dopamine flood to create the compulsions to use, especially the way that the strong stimulants do or even nicotine.

physical dependence? sure (few days - up to 2 weeks of insomnia, restlessness, anxiety, suppressed appetite, vivid dreams, )
addiction? not so sure

i get the physical withdrawal symptoms as described above, they are tolerable though. You may even have to take a week off from work. But that's still shit compared to any other drug dependence/addiction. If my benzo/opioid addiction was a simple take one week off from work and don't get high then i'd have conquered them into the ground a long time ago. I guess it could be argued that cannabis can also cause PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) and that that is comparable to the paws from any other drug. That's the only place i find similarities in dependence between cannabis/benzos/opioids/stimulants. Fuck you can be dependent on a beta blocker but it really doesn't mean much other than to taper off of it when you want to quit.

SSRI's create a physical dependence and withdrawal without addiction, so if cannabis falls into the same category (and luckily it does not create near as severe withdrawal or dependence) then what's the big deal?
If people can create a compulsive habit with gambling, shoplifting, and Thai Hookers..... I'm sure the same can go for cannabis and for some it does interfere with the quality of their life and becomes a problem of its own. If it improves your quality of life I'm all for it, but if you find it to be something that maybe detrimental its best to be avoided.. thats my opinion on things.
 
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i'd still say it's not addictive (i think the controversy lies here). It just doesn't give a blast of dopamine strong enough to create that compulsion for it and even if you look at it from other standpoints cannabis just does not grip the user physically the way opioids/benzos do. The underlying mechanisms for addiction are completely different with each class of drugs but there's something about the dopamine flood that causes the compulsions to use, I just don't think cannabis gives enough of that dopamine flood to create the compulsions to use, especially the way that the strong stimulants do or even nicotine.

physical dependence? sure (few days - up to 2 weeks of insomnia, restlessness, anxiety, suppressed appetite, vivid dreams, )
addiction? not so sure

i get the physical withdrawal symptoms as described above, they are tolerable though. You may even have to take a week off from work. But that's still shit compared to any other drug dependence/addiction. If my benzo/opioid addiction was a simple take one week off from work and don't get high then i'd have conquered them into the ground a long time ago. I guess it could be argued that cannabis can also cause PAWS (post acute withdrawal syndrome) and that that is comparable to the paws from any other drug. That's the only place i find similarities in dependence between cannabis/benzos/opioids/stimulants. Fuck you can be dependent on a beta blocker but it really doesn't mean much other than to taper off of it when you want to quit.

SSRI's create a physical dependence and withdrawal without addiction, so if cannabis falls into the same category (and luckily it does not create near as severe withdrawal or dependence) then what's the big deal?

I think you're oversimplifying the issue here a bit mate. There is most definately more to addiction than just dopamine, look at benzos for example. As far as I can tell, increasing GABA activity should reduce the amount of dopamine in the brain, definately doesn't cause a surge of dopamine. Yet they're still addictive. I don't need the dopamine to have compulsions for using, I have had trouble sleeping all my life so when I've gone longs enough without proper sleep I start craving cannabis quite a bit. In fact I appreciate sleep so much that when my tolerance is low, I will just compulsively smoke until I fall asleep, wake up, smoke until I fall asleep, wake up, smoke until I fall asleep... repeat until tolerance is high enough to not fall asleep, essentially sleeping over 80% of the time during these weird sleeping binges. It might have something to do with depression too, but nothing helps me sleep like cannabis which makes it quite addictive for me.
 
no you're right i was just generalizing based on cocaine/methamphetamine addiction; cannabis does clearly release dopamine but not as much or in the same way as cocaine/methamphetamine. Other than there being down regulation of receptors, and the dopamine release i don't see how cannabis is 'addictive' by definition. Benzos aren't necessarily addictive either, they certainly cause physical dependence but it takes a special kind of person to abuse the shit out of them.

opiates are also a different story (more than just dopamine going on), i've been addicted/dependent on both and it's much different than my compulsive use of nicotine/stimulants (dopamine reinforcement for sure) and especially different from cannabis. I'm not an addiction specialist either lol just going off what i learn in bits and pieces, hence the oversimplification.

cannabis may help you sleep but that's a medical issue, you use cannabis to help you sleep. That's a physical dependence at best and not an addiction necessarily. If cannabis ruined ur sleep yet you kept using it anyway then we can call it an addiction. I'm not disagreeing with you or your experience I used to smoke like that as well but it just stopped working for me after i was introduced to benzos/opiates. Still i wouldn't call it an addiction, i was self-medicating as are most people with cannabis and it certainly never lead me down a path of hell like other drugs did/do.
 
Some really great and interesting posts here. I went into this thread expecting it to be a war zone and I'll be the first to admit, I thought physical withdrawal from cannabis was total bullshit. Until I read this thread.

I would like to get a clearer definition of what exactly physical addiction is. Is it specifically caused by the down regulation of receptors in the brain? If so, would it be safe to assume then, that basically all psychoactive drugs can cause physical addiction? Down regulation will always occur when the receptors are over stimulated for too long, will it not?

I agree that the "withdrawal" effects from abrupt cessation are basically the opposite of the effects from the high. I also found this to be true with opiates.
 
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