Physical dependence on cannabis

[crOOk]

I've mostly received loud boos by the pot smoking crowd whenever I claimed to be physically dependent on cannabis. I'm sure there is much more evidence floating around for these claims to be true and "might over matter" having it's limitations here, but I just stumbled across this study from 2007 in one of my favourite journals ("Neuropharmacology"). Here's an abstract:

Cross-sensitization and cross-tolerance between exogenous cannabinoid antinociception and endocannabinoid-mediated stress-induced analgesia
Abstract
Footshock stress induces both endocannabinoid mobilization and antinociception. The present studies investigated behavioral plasticity in cannabinoid antinociceptive mechanisms following repeated activation using the tail-flick test. A secondary objective was to ascertain whether blockade of stress antinociception by the CB1 antagonist rimonabant could be attributed to changes in locomotor activity. The cannabinoid agonist WIN55,212-2 induced hypoactivity in the open field relative to vehicle-treated controls. By contrast, rimonabant, administered at a dose that virtually eliminated endocannabinoid-mediated stress antinociception, failed to alter locomotor behavior (i.e. time resting, ambulatory counts, distance traveled) in rats subjected to the same stressor. Rats exposed acutely to footshock were hypersensitive to the antinociceptive effects of WIN55,212-2 and D9-tetrahydrocannabinol (D9-THC). The converse was also true; acute D9-THC and WIN55,212-2 administration potentiated stress antinociception, suggesting a bidirectional sensitization between endocannabinoid-mediated stress antinociception and exogenous cannabinoid antinociception. Stress antinociception was also attenuated following chronic relative to acute treatment with WIN55,212-2 or D9-THC. Repeated exposure to footshock (3 min/day for 15 days), however, failed to attenuate antinociception induced by either footshock stress or WIN55,212-2. Our results demonstrate that endocannabinoid-mediated stress antinociception cannot be attributed to motor suppression.
Our results further identify a functional plasticity of the cannabinoid system in response to repeated activation. The existence of cross-sensitization between endocannabinoid-mediated stress antinociception and exogenous cannabinoid antinociception suggests that these phenomena are mediated by a common mechanism. The observation of stress-induced hypersensitivity to effects of exogenous cannabinoids may have clinical implications for understanding marijuana abuse liability in humans.

Source: Neuropharmacology. 2008 Jan;54(1):161-71. Epub 2007 Jul 19.

If you are interested in a pdf containing the full article let me know.

 

[xstayfadedx]

I think its all in your head tbph. I mean unless I see a lot more evidence I am still left unconvinced. I mean who am I to really judge but in the end I really think its mind over matter.

 

[crOOk]

I think its all in your head tbph. I mean unless I see a lot more evidence I am still left unconvinced. I mean who am I to really judge but in the end I really think its mind over matter.

Not sure if you are trying to provoke me personally or what else the reason for your completely unfounded claims are. Assuming you're not just trying to provoke, my guess is you either "don't believe" in science or scientific methodology or you simply don't know much about it. Maybe you are in fact conducting your own studies that lead you to believe the results of this one are wrong. Whatever is true and whether you want to provoke me or not, I am now officially provoked and will paste further studies with more conclusive results.

Aside from all his, what allows you to tell me that the withdrawals are "all in your head"? The reason for your additional claim that you are "perfectly honest" in your judgement of the issue is a mystery to me (to be perfectly honest). I generally assume that people are honest when they try to seek the truth in a common effort. Discussion is not meant to have any other winner than the truth, so without anything to be personally gained there is no need for lying. Therefore I believe you are being perfectly honest without you saying it, at least without reason to believe otherwise. This makes your statement tautological unless we are in the midst of a discussion where not everyone is interested in finding the truth which would then would turn your statement into a paradox by my understanding since I personally know of my honesty and we are the only two members writing in this thread so far. Mind-bending isn't it?

Anyway, what allows you to tell me that the withdrawals are "all in your head"? You haven't even tried to collect your data, you haven't even asked me for my background, experience, the exact nature and severity of the withdrawals or anythign else regarding the matter at hand. I am myself starting to become a big advocat of pot use (after 12 years of daily use) and am taking the physical dependence as a necessary evil to overall improve my quality of life. It has taken very long for me to come to these conclusions for the reasons mentioned in the next paragraph.

I simply cannot hear people having made up their mind about cannabis anymore. We simply don't have all the facts. You can surely have a hunch and an opinion, but scientific principles demand us to be careful with claiming to know things about the substance that are still being discussed.
-There are those that keep calling it an herbal remedy and who (being so busy advocating it's use) forget to warn of the price and the potential dangers. I fell for that group when I initiatively decided to try cannabis and probably even start using it daily when I was 14 years old.
-There are also those that demonize the plant, that keep warning how underestimated it is and that it'll basically cause all kinds of trouble. Countless sick people suffer to an unnessecary degree becuase of these people.
--> Both these groups are obviously not interested in finding out whether the other group is speaking some truth as well. No middle ground could so far be established, and it won't happen as long as people are not listening to one another and keep taking extreme positions on such a subject.

Your post made a hostile and prejudiced impression on me and if you are not interested in hearing me out personally before making claims about what is going on with my mind and body, then I can simply not take you serious in your effort to partake in this thread. I also find your behaviour not only hasty, but also quite arrogant.

 

[crOOk]

Btw I cannot deny that "mind over matter" is a principle that I agree to (wholeheartedly so) and that my expectancy does seem to modify the severity of withdrawals. I have only once in 14 years ran out of cannabis and therefore had to go without it that night without having planned to do so. I have had nights, days, even whole weeks (and on two occasions a whole month) without cannabis use, but always willingly so.

In the case of this unvoluntary night of abstinence my withdrawals were considerably more severe and harder to bare than they have been on other occasions.
We are also not talking about verty severe withdrawals, surely not as severe as withdrawals from downers (booze opioids benzos etc.), but still it is an issue that should not simply be denied. Some aspects of these physical withdrawals are in fact very pleasurably to me, but I won't go into detail.

See, to me, these problems were always there. Even before I ever smoked Cannabis. So, to me, they are not a result of lack of smoking.

Dude I wasn't even through puberty when I started smoking and it most definitely wasn't sweating like that before lol. I also had some trouble falling asleep my whole life (but NOT sleeping through!), but this is not an issue at all (!) when I stop smoking cannabis. I fall asleep easily. The trouble begins 30mins later when I wake up in a soaked sheet. Sometimes my sheet is still visibly darker where I slept (and feels wet) on the next evening!

If you are really interested btw, there are tons of studies which go into the details of cannabis pharmacology. No serious scientist would ever argue with you (I do not say this lightly) like we do about the matter btw, it cannot momentarily be argued against on a scientific level, there is not even a slight hint to justify the doubts you are having.
Well if you are interested, there are many good reviews and I'll try to supply one that's half way readable for someone not an expert on the human body.

I could also try to find out about the possibility of measurable hyperthermia being the cause of the sweating. I think I've heard somewhere that cannabis intoxication causes slight hypothermia in monkeys...

 

[hx_]

We are also not talking about verty severe withdrawals, surely not as severe as withdrawals from downers (booze opioids benzos etc.), but still it is an issue that should not simply be denied. Some aspects of these physical withdrawals are in fact very pleasurably to me, but I won't go into detail.

Synthetic Cannabinoids can cause this to a much greater degree. This is likely to their faster excretion/half life and mostly much more powerful effects at receptor sites.

I'm barely able to eat or sleep at the moment and was throwing up most of last night due to the nausea. I was smoking over 200mg a day of AM-2201 though and have gone cold turkey, ill admit that is a ridiculous amount - when I first started using it I struggled to finish 30mg in a day!

Have a look over on drugs forums synthetic cannabinoid forums for proof.

 

[Darksidesam]

think ill only touch the synths on my yamaha DGX-220 (oooh trance-like) , after reading your posts hx_ lol

 

[J.Wallace]

I don't care what people say, Cannabis withdrawals do no exist in a physical sense. Obviously if you go from smoking an eighth a day to absolutely nothing, you're gonna experience symptoms of aggravation, irritability, and other such things but those are from you're own mental behavior, not from physical changes in you're body.

And lets say for the sake of argument that scientists discover that physical dependence on Cannabis is possible. If that is the case, the symptoms of withdrawal are so fucking minor that it shouldn't even be called withdrawals. I'm sorry, but if somebody say they are addicted to Cannabis, I automatically laugh at them. It's not hard at all to go without Cannabis when you stop suddenly. And if you think it is, I'm sorry but you have no idea what real withdrawals are.

 

[hx_]

I don't care what people say

You know you have no hope of arguing successfully with someone when they start with this


Also, synthetics can be quite different, illiciting a full response at the receptors rather than a partial agonist like THC. I struggle to even swallow any food at the moment if I haven't smoked.

Anything can become addictive, anything that causes imbalances in the body's natural systems has withdrawals.

 

[crOOk]

Synthetic Cannabinoids can cause this to a much greater degree. This is likely to their faster excretion/half life and mostly much more powerful effects at receptor sites.

I'm barely able to eat or sleep at the moment and was throwing up most of last night due to the nausea. I was smoking over 200mg a day of AM-2201 though and have gone cold turkey, ill admit that is a ridiculous amount - when I first started using it I struggled to finish 30mg in a day!

Have a look over on drugs forums synthetic cannabinoid forums for proof.

I agree, these synthetics aren't to be taken lightly. I'm a big fan of AM-2201, but only really use it on days before exams (the "rebound" will even override my herbal cannabis high and have me wake up after 3-4h fully) and to have security in case I ever run out of cannabis again.

Since we all know (?) that each individual is more or less sensitive to withdrawal, you will probably believe me when I say I am dependent on cannabis, even if the dependence is not the reason that keeps me using and is far less intense than the dependence on many other substances. People need to stop claiming that cannabis doesn't cause dependance when there's sufficient indication to believe otherwise. This goes especially for cannabis advocats who will seem a lot more believable when they are able to describe the nature of this physical dependance and thereby relativize the gravity of this (potentially shocking) fact.

 

[crOOk]

I don't care what people say, Cannabis withdrawals do no exist in a physical sense. Obviously if you go from smoking an eighth a day to absolutely nothing, you're gonna experience symptoms of aggravation, irritability, and other such things but those are from you're own mental behavior, not from physical changes in you're body.

And lets say for the sake of argument that scientists discover that physical dependence on Cannabis is possible. If that is the case, the symptoms of withdrawal are so fucking minor that it shouldn't even be called withdrawals. I'm sorry, but if somebody say they are addicted to Cannabis, I automatically laugh at them. It's not hard at all to go without Cannabis when you stop suddenly. And if you think it is, I'm sorry but you have no idea what real withdrawals are.

Stubborness like this, unwillingness to communicate and seek truth, stubborness like this is one of the reasons why there is no common ground and cannabis is still illegal in many countries. Who's gonna believe an "addict" who says he "isn't addicted"?

I myself smoke ~.1-.2g strong cannabis per day and only in the evening. This is enough to cause withdrawals when stopped abruptly. Yes, they are more severe when I smoke more on the last day and yes, they are less severe if I taper this already ridiculously small amount off.

Mentally I do not experience irritability, but euphoria. I can reliably trigger hypomania by stopping to use cannabis. I've used this circumstance to my advantage many times before (before days when I needed to shine). The physical withdrawal symptoms are miniscule compared to the powerful mood enhancement that I will experience with very high reliability.

The main problem with withdrawing for me comes from profuse sweating (most likely to compensate for hyperthermia, I've never measured temperature, but I'll do so next time). I will sweat until my body is drier than a dead dingo's donger. This causes elektrolyte imbalances resulting in headaches, diarrhea and joint pain. I can usually get this dysbalance fully back under control within a couple of days if I am disciplined with my fluid and food intake.

To believe that cannabis is on ONE hand a remedy for diseases, one that can improve a physical condition, and on the OTHER hand does *not* cause any physical adaptation that will linger on until after use and cause some sort of rebound effect (that can be perceived by the individual) when cannabis use is stopped abruptly, that is just absurd in my book. If you don't want to call it "dependance" well than call it a "discontinuation syndrome" as pharmaceutical companies have so successfully done in the past (who by the way have a very similar philosophy to advocating drugs to yours).

I'd like to remind everyone that this is a harm reduction forum. It has been suggested many times over that cannabis could cause physical dependance. If you are for any reason of other opinion, maybe you should carefully think out what you are saying to others who might not yet even smoke cannabis, at least as long as there is a large group of people doubting your claims about cannabis' harmlessness in this respect. But of course I can't forbid you to speak out your personal opinion, even if it is in my opinion a harmful opinion to propagate.

 

[crOOk]

[...]but those are from you're own mental behavior, not from physical changes in you're body.

You cannot jut separate the mind from the body. Our mind seems in fact to be part of our body... Stunning, isn't it? When you experience irritability it is a process taking place both in the mind and body. That's not what I'm referring to with withdrawals at all though.

I'll stress once more that I am not trying to put cannabis on one level with heroin, benzos and booze. The withdrawals are not very severe for me and entirely bareable even when not prepared for it and unwillingly going down that road. The existence of "cannabis dependence" is a scientifically long established fact though (which I myself previously wasn't aware of, I'm not really that interested in cannabis pharmacology or the endocannabinoid system compared to some other neuropharmacological topics).

 

[2c-goinsane]

maybe some people its mind over matter with but in my case im super addicted and if I was to say im not addicted thatd be complete indenial. When I dont smoke I get hot flashes, cold sweats, cant hold down any food without wanting to puke even if im hungry. Just because it isnt exactly opiate wds doesnt make it awe that aint shit its minor stuff, I wish it was like that honestly but it isnt and im living proof along with every good friend I have that cannabis is addicting as hell. I think all compounds can be abused equally imo

 

[yteek]

I think it is, when I stopped..... I would sweat more, have worst insomnia, like clockwork wake up with hot sweats, and complete lost of appetite. Now it definitely was bearable but still there to say the least.

 

[J.Wallace]

Call me stubborn, call me ignorant, call me what you will. I don't care quite frankly. Yes, I experience "symptoms" when I stop abruptly, specifically lack of sleep (I have 34 hour days when I don't smoke), but I do not experience what I would call withdrawals. I had a very bad Opiate addiction before, and to me that is the idea of withdrawals. Some sweats and lack of sleep is hardly enough to consider it a physical dependence.

I understand every ones body is different, and what might not affect some may affect others, but to me people who say Cannabis is physically addictive are just a bunch of whining babies. Try detoxing cold turkey from Opiates, then tell me you get withdrawals from Cannabis.

 

[Jibult]

I don't care what people say, Cannabis withdrawals do no exist in a physical sense. Obviously if you go from smoking an eighth a day to absolutely nothing, you're gonna experience symptoms of aggravation, irritability, and other such things but those are from you're own mental behavior, not from physical changes in you're body.

::ahem:: (look down)

I think it is, when I stopped..... I would sweat more, have worst insomnia, like clockwork wake up with hot sweats, and complete lost of appetite. Now it definitely was bearable but still there to say the least.

Those are 4 physical reactions to cannabis withdrawal that yteek and myself both feel after cold turkey abstinence. Just because a symptom originates from the brain and chemical/hormone fluctuations ("psychological" symptoms as you call them) doesn't mean they can't manifest in a physical way. Even if it's something as commonplace as depression, how do you think that generally starts? Generally, there's a chemical imbalance in the headspace. A PHYSICAL reason as to why a person may experience psychological distress.



Oh, and just in case you start to reply, J. Wallace, I just want you to know that I don't care what you say.

 

[J.Wallace]

Oh, and just in case you start to reply, J. Wallace, I just want you to know that I don't care what you say.

Then we agree to disagree.

 

[crOOk]

Call me stubborn, call me ignorant, call me what you will. I don't care quite frankly. Yes, I experience "symptoms" when I stop abruptly, specifically lack of sleep (I have 34 hour days when I don't smoke), but I do not experience what I would call withdrawals. I had a very bad Opiate addiction before, and to me that is the idea of withdrawals. Some sweats and lack of sleep is hardly enough to consider it a physical dependence.

I'll stress once more that I am not trying to put cannabis on one level with heroin, benzos and booze. The withdrawals are not very severe for me and entirely bareable

Is that like "I only hit her a little bit, you can NOT call that an assault!"? ;P

 

[Jibult]

Is that like "I only hit her a little bit, you can NOT call that an assault!"? ;P

I think it's more like "I hit her in the face... she says she has a headache but I don't see any bruising. Eh, the pain must be psychological then."

 

[crOOk]

Then we agree to disagree.

To me agree to disagreee means reducing discrepancies down to a single belief (that is not to argue about) which differs between two people until both can agree to understand why there was a disagreement and also agree to not keep hacking at one another with their version of the truth. Not caring at all about what the other person thinks and why is not "agreeing to disagree". According to my own interpretation of the phrase anyway...

I think it's more like "I hit her in the face... she says she has a headache but I don't see any bruising. Eh, the pain must be psychological then."

rofl

Oh, and btw J.Wallace... If you really call heroin withdrawals withdrawals try going through benzos and booze at the same time cold turkey. Pfff, what a whining baby.^^

Seriously though: Acute H withdrawals can be hellish, especially when you are not adequately prepared for them. Kudos if you've beat the habit to this day.

Just bear in mind (the verb, not the furry animal) that this can vary to a degree that you have probably not seen the full range of!
To me cannabis withdrawals are far far less uncomfortable than amphetamine withdrawals (which I thoroughly enjoy under the right circumstances, at least for the most part), but still I would not argue that there is an adaptation process during amphetamine use that will often cause users amongst other things to gain a few kg of body mass during withdrawals.
It could be argued that this type of process (increased appetite, sleepiness, depression in many cases) is not to be called a withdrawal symptom, I could do so because I perceive it as pleasurable, relaxing, recreational even and not even less bad as cannabis withdrawals. We will all draw the line somewhere else based on personal experience.
Therefore that would be very arrogant on our part because (for lack of a better example) other people might have a problem with maintaining a low enough weight to be considered healthy already. "It's all in your head, fatty! Just eat less ffs. You should see anorexics fighting for their life, you whining baby, you haven't seen suffering!"

Again, it can be argued about the specific expression used, but it cannot be denied that there is a physical cause for these processes.


"Addiction" refers to a very different phenomenom (thank god for the English language, us Germans have never discriminated the two words as clearly), a very specific neurological phenomenom. Some will also call this a "physical" phenomenom, but with a common set of mechanisms to all addictions (not just substance addiction) clearly distinguished to the countless withdrawal syndromes of countless pharmacologically different drugs.


Btw the discrimination between physical and psychological makes things much more complicated. The German language does this (physical/mental addiction) and it can really only be justified by a deeply religious belief system. I am not saying that these beliefs are not valid, but in my opinion they do not belong anywhere in the realm of science (same goes for the field of psychology... jk before someone gets offended).

 

[J.Wallace]

Is that like "I only hit her a little bit, you can NOT call that an assault!"? ;P

No, I don't look at it that way. To me, I use Cannabis to help me sleep because if I don't, I'm awake for over 24 hours on a regular basis. It's not the lack of Cannabis causing me to lose sleep, that problem was always there for me. I don't experience cold sweats from lack of smoking either, in fact when I'm sober for over 2 weeks at a time I still experience cold sweats, that's just how my body naturally is. It's not a direct result of not smoking.

See, to me, these problems were always there. Even before I ever smoked Cannabis. So, to me, they are not a result of lack of smoking.

Edit:

What I keep getting from the two of you, is that I'm wrong, you're right. I've already said I understand everyone reacts differently, and I'm not denying you two don't experience what you'd consider withdrawals. What I don't understand, is why it's so hard for you to understand that to me, these are not withdrawals. This is just my person opinion, it's just that, an opinion. It's not fact. It's just my own view on it. So why is that so hard to accept?