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People who don't do drugs are missing out

My Higher Self said:
I mean, the whole thing obviously loses merit when you are talking about something like cancer, as while I am sure its a very life altering experience, its not typically the kind of thing you wish on other people.
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right - i used cancer as an extreme example to make the point but, on further examination, the point is that the line moves and different people draw the line in a different place.

there are people who would place cancer and drugs in the same category - as not the kind of thing they would wish on other people. maybe they have direct experience of 'the bad side' of drugs as opposed to the euphoric side with which many of us are familiar. or whatever.

i guess the logical extension is that that, while you (among others) feel they're missing out, they don't. so they're not.

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
i guess the logical extension is that that, while you (among others) feel they're missing out, they don't. so they're not.

alasdair
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to bring up yet another analogy =D , do the christian science adherents who don't believe in modern medicine, are they missing out "just because they don't think they are" i don't really think that is a logical extension.
 
(Not taking sides, this is an honest question) how do they know they arent missing out if they havent tried it? Thats like saying you dont like cake if you've never actually tried cake.
 
purplefirefly said:
Jimboach:

I don't think I am being hippocritical. It would make me a far less advocate of harm reduction if I did think that people who don't want to do drugs are missing out. No maybe they aren't going to have the same exact experiences in life that I did, but do you think that drugs are the only way to have strong profound life changing experience?
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No, there's plenty of ways to have a strong profound life changing experience but not in the context I am mentioning.

You point to that fact over and over again that not everyone is going to enjoy their experience and that is part of life. We all don't like what others do. Maybe they're experimenting with the wrong drugs, or the drugs are tampered with, or whatever, but the fact remains, there are experiences from drugs and drugs only that have brought all of us together in this internet community and despite how you want to deny it, it's an experience that is truly a missed beneficial opportunity.
 
It seems like both sides of this discussion have similar points, but the way they are being worded is making them appear a lot more seperated than they actually are. From the perspective of someone who uses and enjoys using drugs, people who have not experienced those mind blowing events are missing out, however with those experiences comes the risk of things like addiction. From the perpective of a non-drug user, those risks just arent worth it, and because they have never experienced those things, they are satisfied with their lives as they are, therefore from their view they are not missing out. As has been said here multiple times, it all depends on your personal view.
 
alasdairm said:
we obviously have a difference of opinion which is to be expected - i'm fine with that. the condescending tone, sadly, devalues a lot of what you're writing.

i took a step back from this and thought about it and the statement "people who don't do drugs are missing out" is, in reflection true. but in isolation it's a pretty meaningless statement and, again on reflection, i was rather more focused on the intent behind the post (about which, i will admit, i must have made assumptions. never a good thing).

that said, in the spirit of the op, the following are also true, right?

people who don't eat carrots are missing out
people who don't visit belgium are missing out
people who don't pilot the space shuttle are missing out
people who don't wear prada are missing out
people who don't speak spanish are missing out
people who don't go fishing are missing out
people who don't watch movies are missing out
people who don't listen to the beatles are missing out
etc.

from there, the following must also be true, right?

people who don't have cancer are missing out
people who don't have aids are missing out
people who don't believe in god are missing out

indeed, it's rather a self-evident statement to say: people who don't do x are missing out where x=anything

of course they are - they are 'missing out' on x.

so why bother pointing it out at all? well, i think it's a fair assumption that the reason the op bothered to post it at all is that s/he believes that when x=drugs, 'missing out' is a 'bad' thing (for want of a better word). and that's what caused me to sympathise with purplefirefly's position and view the post for what it looks like to me - simple snobbery.

so i agree that they're missing out but i totally disagree with the implication that it's necessarily a bad thing or a poor choice or something to be pitied. or whatever.

regards

alasdair
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I'm sorry, but this entire post is facetious at best. Carrots, cancer, and shrooms (for example) are totally different.

Pain, death, and humiliation with no benefits is not a missed experience as per the context of this thread. Carrots can be missed out on but not to the degree of some drugs.

A person may try E or LSD or whatever and they may have a bad experience, but it's my firm belief that it's worth it in the pursuit of having that mind altering awesome experience. It can't be traded for anything else.


BTW: this is my favorite thread of all time. I love a good heated discussion. Good points and job everyone. I loved reading every word of it.
 
Jimboach said:
I'm sorry, but this entire post is facetious at best.
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and at worst?

my post could be read a lot of ways but it's definitely not facetious. there's not a trace of humour in it - i'm discussing this quite seriously.
Jimboach said:
Carrots can be missed out on but not to the degree of some drugs.
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that is absolutely a matter of opinion.
you've exemplified my point about superiority beautifully... qed :)
Jimboach said:
A person may try E or LSD or whatever and they may have a bad experience, but it's my firm belief that it's worth it...
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would you be upset if i tried to dictate to you what 'worth' meant to you? i'm sure you would. so why do you feel it's acceptable for you to do that for others? because that's exactly what you're suggesting here - you're telling people that, even if they have a horrendous experience, it's worth it (to them) simply because you say so.

:\

alasdair
 
alasdairm said:
you think they're missing out. they don't. so they're not.

alasdair
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well put. i can only imagine how much i've missed out on being a lazy drug-abusing individual (this doesn't relate to any particular substance.)
 
Zagenth said:
I've read all the responses and I understand all the viewpoints. However, I wholeheartedly believe, that going through life WITHOUT having a psychedelic experience is like going through life without ever having sex. You can and will live a good life, BUT you are missing out on something great. No amount of talking will ever persuade me from that standpoint.
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yeah let me +1 on that
is alasdair trying to say that by maintaining sobriety you can achieve a bliss us drug users will never know? if so - WRONG!!!

by using drugs (particularly) psychedelics Ive just barely began to tap into the full capabilities of the human mind

to go further than I have come at this point in my life would be impossible without drugs

actually I make it my mission to fight the ignorance of holier than thou sober people or people that refuse to accept that drugs can serve some good

even with people that legitimately have a reason to say that drugs are bad (bad trip or OD), I can still counter with your mind obviously cant take the effects of a psychedellic drug, you didn't prepare your setting well enough, or you didn't utilize harm reduction which caused you to OD
by espousing an abstinence policy you are only setting up future generations to make the same mistakes of ignorance you did
 
bowdenta said:
is alasdair trying to say that by maintaining sobriety you can achieve a bliss us drug users will never know? if so - WRONG!!!
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that's a symptom of what i'm saying. it's not wrong - we just have a difference of opinion.

alasdair
 
very incisive. here, let me save us a little time:

you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion
you're wrong
i'm not wrong i just have a difference of opinion

where does that get us?

if the best you can do is a completely unqualified "you're wrong" you are adding nothing to the discussion and, honestly, it's pretty childish.

can you substantiate what you're saying? can you prove i'm wrong?

alasdair
 
ok so one time this FBI agent came to my HS to talk about being an agent and that she had never done drugs

the stoner in our class began mocking her and she blew up in a fit of rage with her holier than thou attitude as if her sobriety somehow made her more able to understand the effects of drugs and drug users

i mean really explain to me what you can gain through being sober all your life that you lose by taking a mind altering substance

its like saying not going to college but working in a mcdonalds gives you something a college grad would never understand and that there better off for it!
sorry but the permasmell of french fry oil doesn't add anything to more to life than does never having experienced a drug
 
bowdenta said:
actually I make it my mission to fight the ignorance of holier than thou sober people or people that refuse to accept that drugs can serve some good
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there are plenty of well-informed, humble sober people who are perfectly willing to accept that drugs can (and do) serve good but choose not to take them anyway...

honest, all these false dilemmas and straw men just detract from the core discussion.
bowdenta said:
even with people that legitimately have a reason to say that drugs are bad (bad trip or OD), I can still counter with your mind obviously cant take the effects of a psychedellic drug, you didn't prepare your setting well enough, or you didn't utilize harm reduction which caused you to OD
by espousing an abstinence policy you are only setting up future generations to make the same mistakes of ignorance you did
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"the lady doth protest too much, methinks" (hamlet)

while i'm interested in what your posting, think you're having a different argument with somebody else regarding your crusade.

nobody here is trying to persuade you that "drugs are bad, mmmmkay" and your last paragraph here is full of great material. for another thread.

alasdair
 
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alasdairm said:
can you substantiate what you're saying? can you prove i'm wrong?

alasdair
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look man you're making the assertion - you prove that sobriety offers a greater bliss than drug use

I spent 18 years of my life without having done drugs and I understand sobriety - I never found anything but a snobbish attitude towards drugs users
 
alasdairm said:
there are plenty of well-informed, humble sober people who are perfectly willing to accept that drugs can (and do) serve good but choose not to take them anyway...
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im speaking specifically of people that have never tried drugs and still take it that they have the authority and knowledge to invalidate my claims - have you stopped using btw?
 
bowdenta said:
ok so one time this FBI agent came to my HS to talk about being an agent and that she had never done drugs

the stoner in our class began mocking her and she blew up in a fit of rage with her holier than thou attitude as if her sobriety somehow made her more able to understand the effects of drugs and drug users
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ok. so from this we learn there's at least one holier than thou fbi agent out there with whom you disagree passionately. sfw?
bowdenta said:
i mean really explain to me what you can gain through being sober all your life that you lose by taking a mind altering substance
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you gain a clarity which can only come from sobriety?

i thin you think i'm attacking your highly-spiritual, psychedelics-rock position from some holier than thou place. i'm not. let me try to distill it for you.

i've done plenty of different drugs. i've used and abused a large number of different substances including some extremely powerful psychedelics. i'm glad i did.

but that's all irrelevant to the discussion. i'm not so arrogant to suggest that others who have made a different choice from me should be pitied - or are somehow spiritually or emotionally lacking - simply because they chose to abstain.

i'm not right or wrong. you're not right or wrong. we've (widest sense) simply made different choices which lead to different places.
bowdenta said:
look man you're making the assertion - you prove that sobriety offers a greater bliss than drug use
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i'm not saying it does. i don't know if it does or not. i'll never know. and that's my point.
bowdenta said:
I spent 18 years of my life without having done drugs and I understand sobriety - I never found anything but a snobbish attitude towards drugs users
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ironic indeed.

alasdair

alasdair
 
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