Pa. boy, 13, ill after smoking synthetic pot, dies

so you're just guessing. maybe an 'educated' guess, but a guess nonetheless.

harm reduction should be based on more than guessing.

Does every harm reduction statement require the backing of scientific evidence that is based on multiple, longitudinal, double-blind studies to meet your approval?
Sometimes, I would argue, harm reduction requires common sense.
Especially when both the subject of the story and the author of the article are clearly lacking in this area.
 
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Does every harm reduction statement require the backing of scientific evidence that is based on multiple, longitudinal, double-blind studies to meet your approval?
when you have to exaggerate to this extent to support your position, it says more than i have to about the strength of your position.

the fact is you don't know and you're making statements as if you do know. you're guessing and saying it's alright because it's 'common sense' which, especially online, is a common justification for speculative arguments.

i don't think it's too much to ask this community - and especially the staff - to base their harm-reduction information on facts. you're not doing that and i believe it's important to point that out.

alasdair
 
Logic, sometimes no matter how much parents teach their kids right & wrong, the kids still do stupid stuff. For instance, my father taught me not to touch his rifles & handguns from an early age, like 2 years old but when I was 6 or 7, I went into the closet, got a chair & reached the empty revolver which was in a box & pulled it down, then I also grabbed the bullets that were in another box & began to load the revolver.

I then went over to my parents bed & sat there while I "acted" like I was shooting the gun but never pulled the trigger because looking back at it now, only conclusion I can come up with is I thought I could hurt someone if I did pulls the trigger or maybe someone was watching over me, either way, I was very lucky I didnt shoot myself. I then unloaded the handgun & put everything back in its place fearing I would get into trouble if I got caught.

Bottom line is I was lucky & maybe I used common sense, I dont know, I was very young but bad things do happen to kids no matter how much parents teach their kids the right thing & you cant blame parents for all bad things do, altho that is an easy way for police & who ever else to blame.

Its a tough f**king world out there & if you have kids, good luck!

Uh... Er... ? HUH!??? Your dad should have those guns locked up if he has a little kid in the house. So you proved your own point wrong. But I still agree with it despite your and your father's sheer recklessness.
 
when you have to exaggerate to this extent to support your position, it says more than i have to about the strength of your position.

the fact is you don't know and you're making statements as if you do know. you're guessing and saying it's alright because it's 'common sense' which, especially online, is a common justification for speculative arguments.

i don't think it's too much to ask this community - and especially the staff - to base their harm-reduction information on facts. you're not doing that and i believe it's important to point that out.

alasdair


Using the best available evidence to come up with a story that explains that data logically and as simply as possible is part of the scientific method.
If you have a better explanation, I would love to hear it. If it explains the data in a superior way, I will happily accept it.
But you were mistaken to claim that my statements were not based on science.

You say that I am not basing what I say on facts.
Are you saying that you would prefer that nobody mention the fact that burning plastic is highly toxic?
Or that thousands of other people have smoked the same "synthetic marijuana" without needing lung transplants?
Are you saying that these things are not "facts"?
Or that my argument is highly speculative and questionable?

I think that you are just in a bad mood.
 
i agree that, in some cases, burning plastic can be toxic. but you are adding 2 and 2 and getting 5. you have no idea how much plastic this kid inhaled, if any at all. this is the kind of thing i have a problem with.

you're speculating and trying to pass it off as some kind of authoritative statement on what happened.

why do you have to take a cheap shot and say i'm in a bad mood? you could not be further fro the truth and when you stoop to a personal attack like that, it speaks, again, to the strength of your argument.

we're at something of an impasse, so i'm happy to agree to disagree with you. i do invite others who read your comments to consider that, in my opinion, you're guessing. i further invite them to consider that, in my opinion, speculation flies directly in the face of what bluelight is all about...

alasdair
 
I am not sure if it was a cheap shot to question your mood, and it was not intended as a personal attack.
I honestly wondered if your multiple half-smiling faces, as well as the attitude of your comments as I perceived it, revealed something about your inner mood more than anything else.
I am sorry if you felt that it was an attack, and if I misjudged.

However, I would like to address some of your final comments above.

First, I am not trying to pass off my conclusions as "authoritative".
I feel that they are the best conclusions we can come to, based on the scientific method, and given the available data.
But I did not mean to imply that any "authority" anywhere sanctioned or approved of what I concluded.
What I concluded is not merely "speculation", as you referred to it, but a combination of logic and common sense, making sense of the data, which I see as different.

Second, is speculation, as you define it, really counter to what bluelight is all about?
Using logic, common sense, and the available evidence to come up with a story that motivates or explains the data is a necessary and important step in the scientific method.
If a dozen people who shot up heroin with the same needle all died, but there were no other reports of people taking the same heroin getting sick, would you refuse to "speculate" that the needle was contaminated, or that the heroin itself was not to blame, on bluelight? Would you complain that such speculation was not based on facts, or science?
"You have no idea what contaminants might have been in that syringe, if any at all.
"

If so, I am clearly missing some vital information about harm reduction and the purpose of bluelight, and I would be interested in learning more.
If not, I don't see how you can refute the logic I employed here.

Finally, I would claim that scientific professionals would surely agree with me.
For example,
Dr. J. Douglas Bricker, dean of Duquesne University's Mylan School of Pharmacy, said that although he doesn't underestimate the danger of the ingredients in the man-made designer drug, smoking synthetic marijuana in a plastic PEZ dispenser would have been a "significant factor" in Brandon's death.

"It's (the drug) fairly potent, but nothing in the literature has been shown to cause any lung toxicity," he said. But Bricker said plastic -- such as that found in the candy dispenser -- heated at high temperatures will release highly toxic cyanide gas and carbon monoxide.

from http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/westmoreland/s_764280.html#ixzz1cayI5a94
Note that the doctor is not saying anything new, that I didn't say (or imply), but I bet that you see his statement as much more "authoritative" and less "speculative" than you found mine.
Note also that some could refer to his statement as "mere speculation", if they wanted to. But to do so would really not be in the interest of harm reduction, as I see it.

In any case, I believe that we are both here for the same purposes, so I would prefer to avoid future conflicts.
Please feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss this further, but I would like to go on from here as comrades in the fight for freedom of consciousness.

Peace.

Victor
 
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Uh... Er... ? HUH!??? Your dad should have those guns locked up if he has a little kid in the house. So you proved your own point wrong. But I still agree with it despite your and your father's sheer recklessness.



Guns werent locked up as much back in the 80's like they are now a days with all the news media & over hype of handguns.......in fact, I had 3 or 4 uncles that hunted a lot & they never locked up their handguns or rifles & no one was ever killed by an accident or mishandling of any weapons. Sure guns should be locked up but it something that wasnt a big deal back then like it is now with all these kids killing their classmates & what not.
 
Note that the doctor is not saying anything new, that I didn't say (or imply), but I bet that you see his statement as much more "authoritative" and less "speculative" than you found mine.
i do not.

how much toxic plastic smoke did this child inhale - can you tell me that?

alasdair
 
Guns werent locked up as much back in the 80's like they are now a days with all the news media & over hype of handguns.......in fact, I had 3 or 4 uncles that hunted a lot & they never locked up their handguns or rifles & no one was ever killed by an accident or mishandling of any weapons. Sure guns should be locked up but it something that wasnt a big deal back then like it is now with all these kids killing their classmates & what not.

that makes no sense bro. i dont think the point is, to lock em up to stop a serial killer coming in and using them, but to stop your kids from playing with them and killing themselves/each other or an adult. guns are no more or less dangerous because of the media. my dad had guns all my life kept under lock and key when i was in the 80s as is required by law. some laws make a lot of sense y'see.
 
I find it odd that this is the second cannabinoid related death this year. Even inhaling burning plastic should not cause this kind of damage. Obviously I would not recommend anyone smoke plastic but I could imagine most people would survive several bong-rips of ground pez-dispenser plastic. Something seems awry, both people died of pulmonary disorders one of pulmonary embolism the other it is less clear. I wonder if certain blends contain an unprofiled pulmotoxic impurity...
 
that's called putting the cart before the horse.

the fact is you don't know how much plastic smoke he inhaled. you've made some guesses but you do not know.

alasdair
 
that's called putting the cart before the horse.

the fact is you don't know how much plastic smoke he inhaled. you've made some guesses but you do not know.

alasdair

You call them "guesses". However, this is inaccurate, or at least incomplete. They are the results of my scientific analysis.
Have you heard of Occam's razor? It is a principle attributed to the 14th century logician and Franciscan friar William of Occam.
It can be stated as
"Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." or "Plurality should not be posited without necessity."

Another statement of the principle: "When you have two competing theories which make the same predictions, the one that is simpler is better."

Isaac Newton stated the rule: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

So, this means that my hypothesis - that the fumes released by the burning plastic - is superior to your hypothesis - which, as far as I can tell, is that the smoking blend caused the boy's physical problems - because mine is far, far simpler.

We know that burning plastic releases highly toxic chemicals.
We know that thousands of people across the world have bought Spice, K2, etc. every day for the past several years, and that this is the first incidence of someone needing a lung transplant - and that this apparently happened after the boy smoking one time.

My hypothesis explains what happened, based on what we know, very simply.
Any other hypothesis requires more assumptions - and assumptions that something extremely unusual happened (such as a single bad packet - or hit - of smoking blend, due to contamination or poisoning).

Therefore, unless someone else can propose another, superior hypothesis, my solution is the best answer that science can give us.
It is not 100% certain, but it is the most likely to be true.
The doctor interviewed in the article I quoted above came up with the same conclusion, based on the same evidence.

By focusing on the fact that it is not 100% certain, you can't be told that you are "wrong", but you are also not permitting the (scientifically) best story to be told.
By disparaging my contribution to harm reduction because the best story, my hypothesis, lacked the status of a 100%-proven fact, you are not acting in the best interest of harm reduction.

I have tried to explain things as simply as possible. I hope I have done a reasonable job.
 
Have you heard of Occam's razor?
lol. really? yes i've heard of it (but if i hadn't, i have access to wikipedia too :) )

the problem with occam's razor is that it will accept a simple, incorrect theory over a less simple, correct theory. further, it only concerns itself with choosing between known theories and, finally, it disregards evidentiary data.

if you had read further in the wikipedia article from which your information came, you would have found this: "In science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic (rule of thumb) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models."

further, "In the scientific method, parsimony is an epistemological, metaphysical or heuristic preference, not an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result." and finally "As a logical principle, Occam's razor would demand that scientists accept the simplest possible theoretical explanation for existing data. However, science has shown repeatedly that future data often supports more complex theories than existing data."

in fact, if you consider the history of the razor, it's really not that relevant or useful today. and it's certainly not proof of anything.

but this is all a distraction which might be better discussed in p&s.
...is superior to your hypothesis
here's the thing. i don't have a hypothesis. my position is that i don't know what happened given the dismally tiny amount of 'evidence' in the article posted in the op. i don't know how much fake pot this kid smoked (if any) and how much burning plastic if any he inhaled while doing so. i don't know what effect the inhaled smoke had on his lungs and whether or not it contributed directly or indirectly to his death. "i don't know" is my hypothesis.

you, it seems, are 100% confident that the fake pot was not a factor at all. you are 100% confident that his lungs were "destroyed" (another exaggeration - the op says the lungs suffered "extensive damage").

you can't even tell me how much plastic this kid inhaled if any, but you conclude it was the only factor in his death.
My hypothesis explains what happened, based on what we know, very simply.
there's so little information in the op that you simply can not explain what happened without exaggerating, speculating and fabricating.

i'm not sure why you're so determined to make the case you're making but to suggest that your conclusions are correct and then to trot out occam's razor as proof is, frankly, laughable.

alasdair
 
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that makes no sense bro. i dont think the point is, to lock em up to stop a serial killer coming in and using them, but to stop your kids from playing with them and killing themselves/each other or an adult. guns are no more or less dangerous because of the media. my dad had guns all my life kept under lock and key when i was in the 80s as is required by law. some laws make a lot of sense y'see.


Thats was your dad, not mine, you see? My father also allowed me & my brother & sister to drink alcohol when we were at weddings & what not when we were young, like ages 12 & 13, how about your dad? Not saying it was right but the country my father comes from, you can drink at an early age.
 
Yeah it was the vaporized anti-cancerous chemical, not the cyanide from the burning plastic....
 
^ anti-cancerous? are you saying the substance he smoked prevents cancer? i's love to hear some more on that claim.

which product, specifically, did this kid smoke and how much? exactly how much burning plastic did this kid inhale, if any? what plastic are pez dispensers made from and what makes you say it contains cyanide?

regards

alasdair
 
Point is, a young kid is dead. Yes it's because of his ignorance, and you can try to say the parents should have taught him better or he should have know. I've seen seniors in high school smoking weed out of plastic pens for one hitters, and doing alot more dumb shit past that age. Friends are the reason for doing dumb shit, maybe the kid did know better and did it anyways, like we all have at times. Think of how the parents must be feeling.. If blame were to pinned on something I would say it's the lack of education on drugs in our society. Harm reduction is being knowledgeable.
 
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