Opiate and opioid withdrawal: Coping strategies and medication

[wcote]

 

[Shambles]

^ They famously smoked a joint on the Whitehouse roof when Nancy Reagan invited them over as shining examples of her Just Say No campaign, dontcha know. Zammo

I have heard so many such comments made about me over the years, that all i can do with them by now is dismiss them. It serves no use dwelling on them and wondering whether they are right or not. What does it matter if i am or not anyway, i am who i am.

Nicely put.

Just say no to opiates and immediately start Concentrate on the etiz, try and get down to a point when you can get a script for Valium. Just get going with, and have that to work on asap.

This sounds like a plan to me. Nobody is suggesting it's easy, but it maybe didn't seem like quitting bupe was gonna be easy either but it seems to have gone well. A lot of this addiction stuff does depend on how you approach it mentally I think. It may not be easy (it's not) but I think we often make it harder for ourselves than it needs be. I'm sure most of us would agree that the physical aspects are really quite manageable. By no means pleasant but comparatively brief and there are usually methods and means to keep that stuff to a minimum. The mental and emotional sides are so much harder and that is where the support comes in, and, as much and as far as possible, to try to focus on and emphasise the positives. There's plenty enough negatives in just the day to day addict stuff.

Interestingly, I've used Heroin many, many times. it's very prevalent in my area. I'll use it for a few days, then when im finished stop for a few months. I've repeated this cycle many-a-time. Never had a problem with addiction.

many are telling me never to touch it, as those few times lead to a greater addiction. Are they right/wrong, in the opinion of more experienced users?

I've said it many times before and am sure I'll say it many times more: it doesn't matter how many times you use heroin (or perhaps strong opiates in general but heroin is the one I know best) without getting addicted. If used with suitable (ie a lot) of caution it can remain recreational and under control. What cannot be controlled is everything else - life in general. Things can change very quickly. In my own case, I'd used opiates (mainly codeine and DHC, bit of heroin here and there) for years without it ever being a problem. The rest of my life was just fine, or so it seemed. Then, within the space of a week or so, I lost my job, my college course and the roof over my head and found myself out in the pissing rain in the middle of winter with my world in tatters. But I could get hold of heroin and heroin keeps you warm and helps you to not feel. And becomes very moreish indeed all of a sudden.

Heroin in and of itself is not such a problem, heroin + unforseeable problems = unforseen heroin problem + unforseeable problems.

 

[Raasyvibe]

i wasnt meaning to judge anyone, i believe that one of my strengths is being non-judgemental, christ who am i to sit in judgement on anyone else, i was just trying to highlight the differences in our circumstances. And its time to stop being so complimentary now, it's getting embarrassing !

Yes that was a bit too complimentary for me. Probably drunk. Congrats on the recovery though, I do mean that.

I've said it many times before and am sure I'll say it many times more: it doesn't matter how many times you use heroin (or perhaps strong opiates in general but heroin is the one I know best) without getting addicted. If used with suitable (ie a lot) of caution it can remain recreational and under control. What cannot be controlled is everything else - life in general. Things can change very quickly. In my own case, I'd used opiates (mainly codeine and DHC, bit of heroin here and there) for years without it ever being a problem. The rest of my life was just fine, or so it seemed. Then, within the space of a week or so, I lost my job, my college course and the roof over my head and found myself out in the pissing rain in the middle of winter with my world in tatters. But I could get hold of heroin and heroin keeps you warm and helps you to not feel. And becomes very moreish indeed all of a sudden.

Heroin in and of itself is not such a problem, heroin + unforseeable problems = unforseen heroin problem + unforseeable problems.

This is pretty much my thoughts beforehand. Thanks for your expertised confirmation. I used to use it a fair bit back in the day and never had or felt addiction problems. One time however, I was going through a bad patch, and I noted how the drug remarkably "soaked up" my problems and changed my mood and outlook immediately. Like a cloud being lifted. I could see it being potentially addictive then.

 

[Eveleivibe]

yeah if we keep dividing threads up into specialist threads for the very specific situations that we are all in, then we'll just have our own threads with our own posts and no-one would help each other. That would be silly :D

It's good to have a mix of experiences because what comes from one person's experience, though it might be a different experience, can help other people's situations.

We only need threads because our brains can't handle uncategorised information. We only categorise information to make it possible to handle. The real thing that the information refers to is not categorised, it is the universe, and it comes in one lump, a big lump of stuff. Sure, there are objects, which appear as discrete sub-things, but when you bring in the axis of time I'm sorry, but objects don't survive the time axis. We should only categorise stuff to the extent that it is necessary to allow us to understand it.

Have you been studying Psycholgy? Lol I was taught all this in my degree xxxx

 

[Eveleivibe]

I only mentioned the seperate thread thing as brimz seemed so angry that my experiences were worlds apart from his. They are. But i guess everyone else is right that its opiate w/d whatever opiate it is. I havent suffered as much physical hardship and things like homlessness like he has there is no question, but there is just no comparison as our situations are so different.

Kind of reminds me of people slagging off people like Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stan Collymore for being depressed. Loads of people would be saying 'wtf have they got to be depressed about, they have such easy and privildeged mega wealthy lives, what they need is 16 hours shifts down the cole mines' and other such stuff that shows they just dont understand. Just because people may superficially appear to have an easier life situation it doesnt mean that it actually is. I have the security of owning my own home, but dont have the huge network of social contacts and local recognition that brimz does, things such as that can only easily be had by being born and raised and staying put in the same city or town you were born in, or by having huge dollops of luck thrown your way. When you move on your own to a new city, you dont have that. Get a life ? If only it was that easy.

IME addiction is more of a psychological thing than a physical thing. That may be where we differ. He is a long termer, i cant even decide if i want in, or out, after 2 or 3 years. My key worker almost threatened to throw me out of their programmes today, and send me back to the unit for chaotic users unless i comitted to certain new programs. It seems to her that i have made no progress in the 12 months ive been going there.

In some ways I havent, i keep finding new substances, bingeing on them, spending ages tapering off, and then start the whole cycle off all over again with a new substance within a few days of just finishing the old one. I have to figure out if i want to break this cycle, and how to do it, if i do. Im not seeking to add fuel to any fires here just felt like making a few half baked points that had sprung to mind since my last post and all the other replies.

I'm not happy about that AT ALL! Surely their job is to help you not give up on you because you're a tough case. That attitude is disgusting. Sorry that they said that to you, MDB, you seem to be getting it off everyone lately *big hug*. Some people/organisations make me very angry xxxx

 

[knock]

Have you been studying Psycholgy? Lol I was taught all this in my degree xxxx

Really? I've not studied it "formally" but I have read many psychology books as I've been interested in the workings of the mind since the year dot but I've never come across that in any of them! That's cool, I always worry that teachers miss the important things. Yours obviously did not

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I'm not happy about that AT ALL! Surely their job is to help you not give up on you because you're a tough case. That attitude is disgusting. Sorry that they said that to you, MDB, you seem to be getting it off everyone lately *big hug*. Some people/organisations make me very angry xxxx

I think it was partly exaspertaion, and possibly partly mind games from her. 'scare him by saying this, then offer some possible alternatives that he will then be much more likely to accept and engage with, than he would have otherwise'. To be fair the place is meant to be for recovering or receovered addicts, to keep support them in that. Whilst i was doing my bupe taper and then finally got off it, that was real progress, and i guess she was disappointed when i started on kratom next. Im fine btw, i couldnt respond to your pm, as your inbox is full again.

 

[brimz]

I stand by what i say & FWIW this should be MDBDS BLOG not a fukin thread that revolves around his stupidy regarding minor opiates . Will He ? Won't ? he he did

It's ok mate

He didn't

Stay stong mate

I put more than enouigh of m,y time into the conclusion i have come to is you will do what you fukin want , n because of this posters Selfish nature i might not be so forthcoming with help for folks in the future , which would be a shame as i amongst the best qualified in OPiAtes n Benzo's u have .......................

 

[Mental Kenny]

In all fairness I originally thought Brimz' comment in the last page was a tad harsh towards MDB, belittling his struggle, however, since I got my AH-7921 yesterday I hit the specific thread to gather some info on it and came across this post:

05-05-2013 13:37 Report Post
Quote Originally Posted by DickTate View Post
Hey guys,

mdb: Like I suggested, I would switch from the AH to Kratom and then taper down that way. Was the easiest of my WD-trys regarding symptoms, even if I only made it 4 days...
Damn, day 11 and I could easily start again next week. Which I won't.
can you remember how much ah you were taking when you switched, and how much kratom did u take to taper, and was it a quick taper from then on in ? Sorry to bombard you with all these questions. I'll be back down to 100mg tonight i think, then 50mg the next night. Hopefully the cunts at the prescribing clinic will have changed their mind and will give me some subs (i think theres been a bit of arse kicking going on behind closed doors there - the way im suddenly being asked to try thrm again) - theyve seen what happens whgen they dont help - i hit a brick wall and relapse. I'll speak to them tomorrow.

The part in bold is the post by MDB...sorry mate, nothing personal and you know I've tried to help you as much as I could, giving what little advice I could handle out given my limited experience with opiates, however when I read that post the only thing I could think of was "is this guy for real?"

In this post you're seen asking for advice on tapering between AH and kratom, the post was published on the fifth of May 2013, that is about nine months ago, NINE MONTHS, sorry brother I don't mean to insult you, but it seems like you basically artificially created your issues with opiates/opiods. I mean it feels like you looked for it, you willingly developed an addiction that wasn't there to beging with. You've been asking the same exact questions in the kratom thread as late as yesterday or the day before. Nine months mate, same place you are at.

I feel emphathy towards anybody who's having any sort of WD no matter the substance, hell I can be found whining about withdrawing from weak opiods myself and I'm sure some of the seasoned heroin addicts probably look at my post and say "why can't this wimp wog just grow a pair and stop whining to his mommy about kratom addiction, he doesn't know what real addiction is", and that's understandable.

So if there's somebody who felt for you that's defo me, but seriously after seeing that post from almost a year ago I started thinking that maybe you're just taking the piss, I mean just quit already, you've been going back and forth uselessy for so long man.

The question I have, is have you actually at any point felt any sort of WD symptoms? Because from what I gathered from your posts it seems like you originally went on Subutex in fear of having WDs from the AH, after a short term stint with it, chances are you could have probably went CT with no major issues and just dived deep into addiction because of a perceived chance of WD.

Look mate I ran out of kratom last week, took the usual dozens of loperamide tablets the first few days to reduce the bad feelings, didn't work too much this time though and I spent the weekend sweating, shivering and even puking on me ma's laundry

Got the AH yesterday, I wanted to try it recreationally so I did over 200mgs or so, today I only took about 100 and tomorrow I'm going for 75 followed by 50 the next day, I plan on ending the taper by the weekend, have a week off then voluntarely jump back on the kratom as I made a couple of orders. But I could probably stay off it. Every time I used loperamide to taper in the past I never stretched it beyond ten days, obviously I'm always coming off opiods on the weaker side of things but with all due respect you also didn't have a major habit with heavy duty opiates so I reckon our situations are comparable.

Quitting any sort of opiate/opiod will always entail a certain degree of pain, tapering is meant to reduce that not eliminate it, as that wouldn't be possible, but just get over with it, I reckon you should either admit to yourself that you're not going to quit and just keep on doing whatever opies you can get your hands on or listen to the advice that's been given to you dozens of times, over and over.

You need to go to Australia, I went there right after quitting etiz and kratom, trust me it wasn't fun initially, you need as much time as you can to re-adjust to not been on something daily, that's the hardest part, not even the quitting itself, but dealing with a whole day where you don't take anything, that's the real struggle. Quit now, like tomorrow, no more fucking around, sorry but if you keep on asking the same questions and then ignore whatever answer that's been given to you it becomes hard for people to take you seriously.

Take care mate

 

[amanitadine]

Well well appears going for a MXE bash 5 days into friggin Kratom WD wasn't a good idea after all! Due to the nature of what was in my bloodstream at the time, and what wasn't, I blacked out for the "good" part of the trip and just woke up really unable to sleep, and too wonky to do anything else but mong out on the carpet with my dog. From what I remember she rather enjoyed me in this state! I however woke up (after finally passing out) on a coupla hours sleep, with a not pleasant MXE hangover and severely dehydrated, and still in WD, albeit more monged and unpleasant like. I promptly drove to the nearest head shop (embarrassingly far away) to "sort myself out" or whatever zombie rationalization I had at the time and went home, tossed and washed, fed the animals, and went back to sleep. I never buy from head shops (overpriced and crap) but eh....well, I wasn't thinking too clearly, and did not like the state I was in!

I for one get wicked hangovers from methoxetamine...way worse than any relative ( relative of MXE that is, I can't speak for my family. They can chime in if they want) and the combo of such with being at the worst point of the Kratom WD sent me running. Oh well...start over tomorrow. Or, actually, the next day....as they conveniently only had the 2 oz packs in stock. So, a day a half of feeling closer to
* normal *, and then back on the wagon. Or off. ...Whichever analogy means not taking more!

Live and learn (to put the MXE back in the off property uber secret locked drug stash box. As far as learning to stay off the opioids, however gentle or hard, that may take a while, if the past many years say anything, besides the fact that they are actually quite habit forming! Getting closer and closer! :/)

Edit- after reading MK's post, I see your points squarely, but for most of us opioid addicts it takes MANY years of spinning tires in the mud and running circles around ourselves to even begin to get a grip on our addictions. Sure, MDB hasn't been at it too long, but his struggle is his struggle....in that way we've all willingly become addicted to whatever shit we are dealing with. Sure, it may sound like groundhog day, but any gearhead with a couple dozen CT attempts is doing the same thing. I spent about a decade addicted to ridiculous amounts of IV heroin, and for very little of that was I resigned to "oh I'm an addict, so just get on with it". I earnestly thought every run was to be my last....yet it always kept on and on.....spend a week clucking, and then start over. Ad infinitum. That's what being an addict is all about. I don't see MDB and his issues as a sign of weakness of whining or anything of the sort....I see somebody who has a problem and is asking for help, or just venting at times. Maybe he over thinks it, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't do the same thing. Most addicts do...and this is a harm reduction board after all!

I will agree that he would be best off just jumping off the Kratom, ASAP, as it is only stringing his bupe WD along at this point, and at once a day dosing barely that. Mitragynine and friends have a pretty damned short half life...4 hours or so IIRC. At this point he hasn't gotten to the nastier stage of Kratom addiction (the mixed action of it's grab bag of alkaloids) and is just out of the acute phase of bupe WDs. For most, Kratom doesn't really rear it's ugly head until dosing multiple times daily, for ages. For me it was 6 or 7 times a day for over two years...

And having done my decade of shooting gear and coke, and my time with Kratom, I will say that the heroin lifestyle and withdrawal are certainly more dramatic and life destroying, but Kratom WD has a particular deep seated insidiousness that makes it surprisingly hard to put down. I haven't seen too many long term heavy duty user success stories....whether that is because it is easy to access and legal, or just a bitch, I don't know. But I know that withdrawal is withdrawal, and no one can adequately gauge another mans suffering.

 

[knock]

Kenny, you're picking up on a post made in the first half of 2013. MDB had been using o-desmethyltramadol for at least a year prior to using AH7921, maybe longer. And he's had a fair old poppy pod habit as well. He has described that opioids relieve what he experiences as a mental illness. He's also been using fuckloads of etizolam and went through a period of using fuckloads of phenazepam. His memory is probably pretty fucking shaky :D Yes he has posted the same questions repeatedly, but his mind had been addled by drugs. I don't mean that critically, MDB, my mind has also been addled by drugs in the past and it didn't work out well. I'm just pointing out the facts. Not to worry, I reckon minds can recover pretty well

We're trying to get through to MDB right now, not in May 2013. Forget May 2013.

He's already had the advice to just quit the kratom and see how it goes.

Now, maybe your post will help him, I don't know, But it never ceases to amaze me how EADD members can be understanding and rational and objective then suddenly BANG they're all over someone like a rash telling them they're dickheads and abusing the forum and all kinds of shit. I've been guilty of it myself. I regret it. We were like that with mugz, we got fed up with him looking for help and then ignoring it, and we told him as much. So he fucked off, then the next thing we knew, he was dead.

Sorry to bring that up but it's true. The tough love did not help mugz. It really didn't. So it bothers me no end to see people going for the tough love angle with MDB,

 

[brimz]

this ain't tough love from me n has nowt to do with Matins Polydrug habits .

For me it 's quite personal actually to hear someone moan n bitch from the comfort of there living room with out even a baby habit let alone 20 years on the fukin Heroin n fuk no what else n the KIcin the teeth is all those friends that died they had no computers or support

The Main Thing that is really emotionally tearing me up is the Death Of My EX Partner n she wanted to get clean n fulkin did it , ONE LOVE

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I really dont know what to say. I had no intention of kicking up a shit storm and emotionally tearing people up. And for that i am sorry.

I am slso sorry that Ive tried the patience of people for so long, and obviously gone beyond some peoples breaking points now. I dont mean to seem ungratefull or dismissive of what anybody has said to try to help me, that is certainly not the case, I very much appreciate it, and it has been a great help.

I can only try to imagine your anger brimz, but i cant really even pretend to comprehend what you are going through. I am sorry for your loss, and i mean that.

It would be a shame if because ive been an awkward and difficult sod that makes you feel 'whats the point trying to help anyone if they dont even listen'. Your advice is valuable, you know that, but im sure many people know that its easier to give advice than it is to take it. That is by no means dismissing the great deal of thought and effort many people have made for me. I am deeply indebted to them for that.

My sitauation is not unique, allthough i seem to have made a bigger deal out of it than anyone else, but thats partlly because i post practically every damn thought that comes into my head, but simillar to what amanitadine said ive been switching from one substance to another, my pattern has been to binge on a substance until i decide this cant go on any more. Usually when it stops delivering the goods and starts turning against me, and even being opiated up doesnt help any more after a while, you need them just to feel normal after a few weeks. So i then set myself the goal of getting off sustance A,B,C or D.

When i achieve it, i hold out for a few days and then after a few days i just want to start the whole cycle all over again with either the same substance or a new one. I have read on EADD about other people doing exactly the same thing with a variety of substances, repeating the same cycles over and over in a similar way for months and months going on into years and years; bingeing, then starting a taper off to quit, then getting over the physical withdawals, which i found to be about a 7/1o for difficulty on the first bupe quit attempt but piss easy on the second attempt. Then after a few days i relapse and start wanting to do nothing but start the whole cycle off all over again. This has been going on for about 2-3 years.

I might have called it a day when i got off bupe but i just happened to have some kratom left over from an order id made years ago, and that i had completely forgotten about, and after a about a week off bupe when i found the kratom, before i could stop myself id woolfed it. Its not too late to stop the kratom by any means.

I should stop asking the same questions over and over and then just dismiss all the efffort and thought that people have put into their replies. That is bad form. Life is easier in the short term, day by day just to to keep on taking things. But this is helping me see that long term its not the road i want to be going too much further down. Indecisiveness and lack impulse control, or comitment to see things through to their conclusion is my problem, flaw and weakness. I am not trying to take the piss out of anyone for their efforts in trying to help, and i mean no disrespect by seeming to dismiss what people have said. I do listen, its just so much easier, in the short term just to keep taking the stuff.

I may have to do something drastic like sell all my computers and get the bank to ban me from making internet orders or something. Its just far too easy if a sudden impluse/craving or urge comes along just to click a few buttons and its done. I need help with impulse control tecniques, I have to start taking this seriously.

I dont come here to stir up shit storms, i come here for the friendliness. If me continuing to make posts on this thread is winding people up i will take it to a blog that no one will read, or start asking new and different questions about impulse control techniques and methods. Would that be more acceptable ? I dunno how prevalent this problem is in people who try to quit, but i suspect its an issue for some. That is a step forward that has been brought about by thinking through the last few posts in this thread and the meeting with my key worker and counsellor this week.


If i cant ask such questions here amongst people that i feel i virtually know, and are going through, or have been through similar things, then where can i ask them ?

There are groups i can go to that try to shift the balance of my thinking as to whether do i want to stop or do i want to carry on. I dont get what is going on with my CBT worker, she doesnt like seeing me whilst im still using. I would have hoped she could help me to find and develop and strengthen ways to fight sudden impulses and cravings. i can do the quit, but keep getting caught out by momentary impluse buys and failing to hold out. If it is meant to be a recovery centre, now that ive pinpointed my problem i hope they can help me with it.

My situation is not comparable to Mugz's at this stage Knock. I am not taking reckless doses and things like that, but maybe the thing about not taking in properly what people are saying, or somehow choosing to disregard it, and then pissing them off as a result, so that the forum eventually becomes a hostile place to come to, rather than a place for support could happen if i carry on like this much longer. Im not disregarding peoples advice to piss them off and wind them up, im disregarding it because i havent yet found a way to hold out at the end.

 

[Marmalade]

We were like that with mugz, we got fed up with him looking for help and then ignoring it, and we told him as much. So he fucked off, then the next thing we knew, he was dead.

Sorry to bring that up but it's true. The tough love did not help mugz. It really didn't. So it bothers me no end to see people going for the tough love angle with MDB,

re: bolded. I think that's WAY out of context in terms of reality in regards to mugz's situation.

And you know I don't believe in the tough love approach, but I think he's a bad example to make that comment about tbh.

 

[Marmalade]

Im not disregarding peoples advice to piss them off and wind them up, im disregarding it because i havent yet found a way to hold out at the end.

You're not even close to being in that position tho, because you're constantly replacing one drug with another to compensate.

You can't and will never find a way 'to hold out at the end' until you're much, much closer to getting there and being in that position. You will develop new coping mechanisms if you actually don't take up any new substances to replace old ones. How can you develop or find new skills of coping until you do that? You're developing coping mechanisms by using other subtances ... which tells your brain and learning curve what? It just reinforces your problem behaviour and attitude towards drug taking.

Until you're near to (or already at) the beginings of the end process, you'll just continue with this cyclical self-reinforcing strategy.

Currently you're a card dealer just shuffling the cards around and not dealing any out ...

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Ive been in that position twice. I got over the initial week of bupe withdrawal twice. But i didnt find or even think about developing strategies to stay stopped.

@ MK it was my drugs support key workers that recommended i go onto bupe. I didnt know i was going to get so much out of it.

 

[Inflorescence]

Does anyone ever get offered CBT for withdrawal just out of interest. A lot of that stuff like keeping mood/trigger/situation diary helps alot of people..

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I want to get that, my one to one cbt worker doesnt seem to want to provide it whilst im still using, maybe i have to explain my needs more precisely, rather than them controlling everything, I'm going to have my say first next time. There have also been CBT groups, some of them have been good.

 

[Marmalade]

Ive been in that position twice. I got over the initial week of bupe withdrawal twice. But i didnt find or even think about developing strategies to stay stopped

Why not?

Hadn't you already decided before, that when you stopped you would try something else? Or start using reactrationally now and again? You were still using other drugs at the same time, no?

 

[Inflorescence]

Yep. Just saying though if some people want to go it alone that CBT thought/mood/trigger/situation diary can be really useful.

Dear god there's an app for that
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.excelatlife.cbtdiary&hl=en