NEWS: smh.com.au- April 14, 2008 - 3:10PM"Plan for painkillers to be on script only"
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hoptis
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Thanks eggman8888, can I ask that we stop trolling that forum or in any other way jumping on there to talk about CWE. While they're clearly thinking about the problem in a different way to us, it's not our place to go over there and change their minds if they don't want to listen.
The fact that they're also probably one of the leading voices in getting government to examine the possibility of scheduling this drug suggests a mentality of blaming the drug for their problems.
So being addicted to bupe, and lying to addiction specialists to get it is okay but extracting ibuprofen from their Nurofen isn't?
The fact that they're also probably one of the leading voices in getting government to examine the possibility of scheduling this drug suggests a mentality of blaming the drug for their problems.
Sue French said:
So being addicted to bupe, and lying to addiction specialists to get it is okay but extracting ibuprofen from their Nurofen isn't?
Mr Blonde
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Oy vey, this whole thing is so frustrating.
Well don't let that ruin it for everyone else! I'm seriously doubtful that so many people could be addicted to codeine in the form of taking N+. Honestly, To get a buzz out of it you would need to have trashed your body so many times over they'd be dropping dead all over the place.
Shit, maybe I should start lobbying to have alcohol moved to S8. Hell, many more people are addicted to that then to codeine.
Oh, and tobacco should be S8 as well. 8)
I'm from QLD, they only ever take my details when I buy an amount of 48 pills or larger. If I ever buy a large amount, I usually buy from a pharmacy in Sydney online, no questions asked.
The first time I actually visited that forum I was amazed they were actually getting buprenorphine to help get off N+.
Well don't let that ruin it for everyone else! I'm seriously doubtful that so many people could be addicted to codeine in the form of taking N+. Honestly, To get a buzz out of it you would need to have trashed your body so many times over they'd be dropping dead all over the place.
Shit, maybe I should start lobbying to have alcohol moved to S8. Hell, many more people are addicted to that then to codeine.
Oh, and tobacco should be S8 as well. 8)
I'm from QLD, they only ever take my details when I buy an amount of 48 pills or larger. If I ever buy a large amount, I usually buy from a pharmacy in Sydney online, no questions asked.
The first time I actually visited that forum I was amazed they were actually getting buprenorphine to help get off N+.
eggman
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I want to echo Hoptis' comment and ask that people leave the forum alone. We dont want to be seen as starting a war between Harm Min and their preference towards replacement methodology.
Its my opinion, the same as most of you, that these guys should promoted HM in a similar way as they do with Buprenorphine/Suboxone programs, tapering and CT etc. However, this has matter has been visited before and the option was refused. It looks as though the same will happen again and from what I have seen today the majority of the users have been polite in rejecting the HM and CWE point of view. I suggest users of BL take the same 'take it or leave it' approach.
Another thing to consider is that many of this groups members are using OTC meds in complete and utter secrecy from husbands, wives and childern. It isn't going to be practical or realistic fror those members to bust out coffee filters and iced mixtures of tabs and water.
Lastly and most importantly, the users of this site are real people with some very real problems that they are struggling to deal with and I guess all im asking is to practice the open mindedness this site is so proud to promote and have some respect for their opinions. I personaly think the majority of them are wasting time their time bt undertaking replacement therapy and not addressing the root of the problems promoting the usuage of codeine based OTC meds. HM is going to assist in reducing health issues but is CWE something these people really need? They are on this site begging for help to get their lives together.
Give them a break and for fucks sake take that poor womans picture down, I am sure she didn't approve of its posting.
Its my opinion, the same as most of you, that these guys should promoted HM in a similar way as they do with Buprenorphine/Suboxone programs, tapering and CT etc. However, this has matter has been visited before and the option was refused. It looks as though the same will happen again and from what I have seen today the majority of the users have been polite in rejecting the HM and CWE point of view. I suggest users of BL take the same 'take it or leave it' approach.
Another thing to consider is that many of this groups members are using OTC meds in complete and utter secrecy from husbands, wives and childern. It isn't going to be practical or realistic fror those members to bust out coffee filters and iced mixtures of tabs and water.
Lastly and most importantly, the users of this site are real people with some very real problems that they are struggling to deal with and I guess all im asking is to practice the open mindedness this site is so proud to promote and have some respect for their opinions. I personaly think the majority of them are wasting time their time bt undertaking replacement therapy and not addressing the root of the problems promoting the usuage of codeine based OTC meds. HM is going to assist in reducing health issues but is CWE something these people really need? They are on this site begging for help to get their lives together.
Give them a break and for fucks sake take that poor womans picture down, I am sure she didn't approve of its posting.
stealthtrucker
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looks like it's time to stock up ay boys 
haaaaahahahahahaaaaahahaha
everyone should get massive stockpiles goijg now
haaaaahahahahahaaaaahahaha
everyone should get massive stockpiles goijg now
eggman
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^ I read through a bunch of emails from them today and seen a few of your latest and yes I agree that on the most part they have been very mature about it.
You have been equally as mature too if I may say, you handled yourself well.
Interesting thing though is that they where ready to shut down the whole site due to lack of interest less than a month ago and now they have more posts than they can handle
You have been equally as mature too if I may say, you handled yourself well.
Interesting thing though is that they where ready to shut down the whole site due to lack of interest less than a month ago and now they have more posts than they can handle
Media Hype
Hi Guys I am from the codeine addiction forum and just wanted to let you guys know my position on a few things. I do not support making codeine products prescription only and we have not lobbied for this in any way. My submission to the TGA is to that effect. I get quoted in the media but the push is not from us (although I woud support a reduction in packet sizes). Also, the TGA is highly unlikely to do this and have not stated that they are actually looking at this measure - its media hype to sell newspapers. I am much more concerned with people having access to appropriate analgesia than I am with the potential for abuse. From a health professional viewpoint, I think the huge packs of panadeine, N+ etc encourage over-use and should be limited.
The "5%" reference is bullshit and never came from me in any of the interviews I did, but the media just keeps repeating the lie. I did say there was a percentage of people that take N+ outside the recommended amounts on the packet and that only a few of these go on to become addicted.
before N+ they were all abusing Mersyndol, Dolased etc.
Our site does not push Sub as an answer though many of the members themsleves do push it. My personal preference is that people go CT with a bit of valium and catapres to get over withdrawals, but when people are using 72 N+ a day, Sub is a short term alternative. Sub gives them a chance to face whats really underlying their addiction. Those that use it as an easy way out will end up hooked on Sub. For peole who are only taking 5 or 6 tablest a day they can go CT with no more than the sniffles and the runs.
One the issue of CWE, I completely understand your perspective and logic. If I was using codeine recreationally I would use CWE, but with addiction there is no logic. If people could do a taper using CW extracted codeine I would print the instructions and post them to every addicts home, but addicts would just take more and more and more (and have). Even the ones that know how to do CWE generally dont bother - thats addiction.
While the harm from ibuprofen/APAP is significant, it is actually the codeine that is destroying these people lives, they are commonly taking between 500-1500 mg a day and they are losing everything. If they could get pure codeine most of them would never stop. The "ceiling effect" doesnt work with addicts because they have developed such a huge tolerance over time that they still get a high at 1500 or even 2800 mg a day. This is the same high that you guys would get at 90-300mg
The addicts that get their lives straight are the ones that dont blame the drug. Addicts are addicts because they use drugs to escape from emotional pain. They dont blame the drug, I dont blame the drug.
Lastly, you guys are welcome on the site. I dont ban people for discussing CWE, I ban them because they take over the discussion and push recovery threads off the main page. What new members read on the first page makes a big difference to their recovery. I dont allow links to CWE, no recovery sites do.
good luck to you all
Hi Guys I am from the codeine addiction forum and just wanted to let you guys know my position on a few things. I do not support making codeine products prescription only and we have not lobbied for this in any way. My submission to the TGA is to that effect. I get quoted in the media but the push is not from us (although I woud support a reduction in packet sizes). Also, the TGA is highly unlikely to do this and have not stated that they are actually looking at this measure - its media hype to sell newspapers. I am much more concerned with people having access to appropriate analgesia than I am with the potential for abuse. From a health professional viewpoint, I think the huge packs of panadeine, N+ etc encourage over-use and should be limited.
The "5%" reference is bullshit and never came from me in any of the interviews I did, but the media just keeps repeating the lie. I did say there was a percentage of people that take N+ outside the recommended amounts on the packet and that only a few of these go on to become addicted.
before N+ they were all abusing Mersyndol, Dolased etc.
Our site does not push Sub as an answer though many of the members themsleves do push it. My personal preference is that people go CT with a bit of valium and catapres to get over withdrawals, but when people are using 72 N+ a day, Sub is a short term alternative. Sub gives them a chance to face whats really underlying their addiction. Those that use it as an easy way out will end up hooked on Sub. For peole who are only taking 5 or 6 tablest a day they can go CT with no more than the sniffles and the runs.
One the issue of CWE, I completely understand your perspective and logic. If I was using codeine recreationally I would use CWE, but with addiction there is no logic. If people could do a taper using CW extracted codeine I would print the instructions and post them to every addicts home, but addicts would just take more and more and more (and have). Even the ones that know how to do CWE generally dont bother - thats addiction.
While the harm from ibuprofen/APAP is significant, it is actually the codeine that is destroying these people lives, they are commonly taking between 500-1500 mg a day and they are losing everything. If they could get pure codeine most of them would never stop. The "ceiling effect" doesnt work with addicts because they have developed such a huge tolerance over time that they still get a high at 1500 or even 2800 mg a day. This is the same high that you guys would get at 90-300mg
The addicts that get their lives straight are the ones that dont blame the drug. Addicts are addicts because they use drugs to escape from emotional pain. They dont blame the drug, I dont blame the drug.
Lastly, you guys are welcome on the site. I dont ban people for discussing CWE, I ban them because they take over the discussion and push recovery threads off the main page. What new members read on the first page makes a big difference to their recovery. I dont allow links to CWE, no recovery sites do.
good luck to you all
hm Im still not convinced, one sure can be addicted and carry out harm minimisation, that part is incorrect. And some people on here have much bigger opiate tolerances than people who munch ibuprofen and a bit of codeine all day who obviously have no idea about how the body reacts to large amounts of paracetamol/ibuprofen and how codeine is metabolised in the liver to morphine and thats is really what they are addicted to. Personally I have gone for weeks on end on 200-300mg codeine a day CWE so no long term damage done .
It seems the reason their addictions on the codeine forums are so much worse is because they are ill informed and take life threatening doses of ibuprofen and or paracetamol.
I would bet there are more severely addicted people on these forums (to an array or drugs) and that the ones here are more informed/educated about their problem and therefore carry out harm reduction even though they may be well addicted (not just in regards to codeine ofcourse). I mean say people who inject opiates, if they dont practice any safety measures at all and are just crazed addicts they would be dead already, and unfortunately some do get lost. Seems the insides of people who much 72 nurofen plus tablets a day will die a slower painful death, that could have been avoided.
It seems the reason their addictions on the codeine forums are so much worse is because they are ill informed and take life threatening doses of ibuprofen and or paracetamol.
I would bet there are more severely addicted people on these forums (to an array or drugs) and that the ones here are more informed/educated about their problem and therefore carry out harm reduction even though they may be well addicted (not just in regards to codeine ofcourse). I mean say people who inject opiates, if they dont practice any safety measures at all and are just crazed addicts they would be dead already, and unfortunately some do get lost. Seems the insides of people who much 72 nurofen plus tablets a day will die a slower painful death, that could have been avoided.
eggman
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Maxy - Thank you for coming on board and posting your point of view on the matter.
The benefits of CWE over not seperating APAP/Ibuprofen is clear, however what our recovery focused friend is saying is that this infomation is easily available to anyone willing to seek it out. Maxy may be making an over generalisation about addicts increasing usage after learning CWE methods, there is no real evidence to suggest that. However, on the reverse side of that there is very likely to be users who will see CWE as a get out of jail free card and hence will consume more and more tablets. Thats a real possibility.
Maxy also makes another good point that I think Bluelighters need to take on board, that being the behaviour displayed by some of these users. Many of the members on that board go around day after day hitting different chemits to purchase packets of N+ at anywhere between $14 and $22 per pack. They are hiding the packets in various places around their homes, popping the tabs out of the blister packs and hiding them in different containers. There are others who are facing financial crisis because they spend so much money on painkillers. CWE will not help them resolve that.
My personal opinion on the matter is that CWE is the best method for these users. People are going to use and abuse these things whether we like it or not. A quick procedure that will remove negative impacts should be a welcomed and promoted option. The big thing in the case of those heavily addicted is that CWE is not going to address their behavioural problems and critics should remind themselves of the most relevant factor here - these people want to quit, they no longer want to be taking codeine.
In summary however, our site is a bout harm minimisation. There site is about abstinence and recovery. The two are at opposites and CWE does not fit their agenda. They should be free to choose not to promote it.
The benefits of CWE over not seperating APAP/Ibuprofen is clear, however what our recovery focused friend is saying is that this infomation is easily available to anyone willing to seek it out. Maxy may be making an over generalisation about addicts increasing usage after learning CWE methods, there is no real evidence to suggest that. However, on the reverse side of that there is very likely to be users who will see CWE as a get out of jail free card and hence will consume more and more tablets. Thats a real possibility.
Maxy also makes another good point that I think Bluelighters need to take on board, that being the behaviour displayed by some of these users. Many of the members on that board go around day after day hitting different chemits to purchase packets of N+ at anywhere between $14 and $22 per pack. They are hiding the packets in various places around their homes, popping the tabs out of the blister packs and hiding them in different containers. There are others who are facing financial crisis because they spend so much money on painkillers. CWE will not help them resolve that.
My personal opinion on the matter is that CWE is the best method for these users. People are going to use and abuse these things whether we like it or not. A quick procedure that will remove negative impacts should be a welcomed and promoted option. The big thing in the case of those heavily addicted is that CWE is not going to address their behavioural problems and critics should remind themselves of the most relevant factor here - these people want to quit, they no longer want to be taking codeine.
In summary however, our site is a bout harm minimisation. There site is about abstinence and recovery. The two are at opposites and CWE does not fit their agenda. They should be free to choose not to promote it.
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hitomaro
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^ what i think he's saying mcwally is that codeine itself is the chemical thats doing the damage, not PHYSICALLY, but rather how do you say... damaging their spirit? psyche? its the codeine thats pushing em off the bridge, and no amount of potential harm from the ibuprofen will stop that, partly because they dont know how bad it is?
but you are right, one can be addicted and carry out harm reduction methods.
in that regard maxy (remember i havent seen your forum, i dont know if youve done this already but if you have kudos) you should bring awareness to how damaging large amounts of ibuprofen/APAP/paracetomol/all that extra shit can do to your body, it is hella important.
the first thing i learnt about nurofen plus from bluelight was by god if your going to take the shit, get rid of that ibuprofen/everything else because your going to damage your liver and potentially do irreversible damage that youll regret later on. that was the FIRST thing i learnt. and ive stuck by it ever since. hell i cant argue because im not there yet, but if i did become an addict, i know in my bones that i would practise harm minimisation, its my bloody liver ok, i know how freakin important that thing is, let alone my life.
im not saying providing steps to CWE should be posted on your forum, but its imperative that awareness should be raised on all the other shit in these pills that will kill those people if they dont stop. maybe there so far down the road they wont care anymore, but for those individuals that are just developing an addiction? hell it might make them think twice, and i think thats worth it.
edit: this post was meant to be in reply to mcwally, eggman beat me!
but you are right, one can be addicted and carry out harm reduction methods.
in that regard maxy (remember i havent seen your forum, i dont know if youve done this already but if you have kudos) you should bring awareness to how damaging large amounts of ibuprofen/APAP/paracetomol/all that extra shit can do to your body, it is hella important.
the first thing i learnt about nurofen plus from bluelight was by god if your going to take the shit, get rid of that ibuprofen/everything else because your going to damage your liver and potentially do irreversible damage that youll regret later on. that was the FIRST thing i learnt. and ive stuck by it ever since. hell i cant argue because im not there yet, but if i did become an addict, i know in my bones that i would practise harm minimisation, its my bloody liver ok, i know how freakin important that thing is, let alone my life.
im not saying providing steps to CWE should be posted on your forum, but its imperative that awareness should be raised on all the other shit in these pills that will kill those people if they dont stop. maybe there so far down the road they wont care anymore, but for those individuals that are just developing an addiction? hell it might make them think twice, and i think thats worth it.
edit: this post was meant to be in reply to mcwally, eggman beat me!
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static_mind
Bluelighter
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Maybe us Codeine users should all get our livers checked and post the results along with estimated dosages, freq of use, cwe or not and for how long.
Im a little scared to ask for a liver test but, dont want to be labled.
Im a little scared to ask for a liver test but, dont want to be labled.
I'm not worried about this to be honest, what they're proposing is just fucking stupid. Think about all the money pharmacies and drug companies are going to lose by doing this. Not to mention the extra strain it would place on the limited number of GPs and the added inconvenience it would give consumers. Can you imagine someone waiting in a docs surgery for 45 minutes only to go in and get a script for mersyndol or some shit just cos' they have a headache? What about the extra strain it would also place on medicare?
It's just too much work for very little benefit.
It's just too much work for very little benefit.
static_mind
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Might go like psudowatch. Still otc but they record the details.
For the record:
I get my liver checked every month (I'm on roaccutane treatment), and come back clean every time. That's with a once-a-week Codeine "habit" (it actually end up being less than that. I'm on it now, for the first time in about 2 weeks). That tells you that yes it can be safe, if enjoyed responsibly.
More than you can say for tobacco
I still think that CWE is the best option for tapering. If someone wants to quit, then why put MORE ibuprofen/APAP through your body when tapering? Seems silly. Sure, the option is there to keep taking more, but if you really sincerely want to quit, then you won't.
Also, thanks eggman =] (Is your name any relation to Sonic? Cause if it is, I'll love you forever ).
I get my liver checked every month (I'm on roaccutane treatment), and come back clean every time. That's with a once-a-week Codeine "habit" (it actually end up being less than that. I'm on it now, for the first time in about 2 weeks). That tells you that yes it can be safe, if enjoyed responsibly.
More than you can say for tobacco
I still think that CWE is the best option for tapering. If someone wants to quit, then why put MORE ibuprofen/APAP through your body when tapering? Seems silly. Sure, the option is there to keep taking more, but if you really sincerely want to quit, then you won't.
Also, thanks eggman =] (Is your name any relation to Sonic? Cause if it is, I'll love you forever
).
peaked
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Thanks for posting Maxy! Although some previous posts in this thread seem to have put somewhat of a negative spin on your forum, it's great to see some clarification "from the horses mouth" so to speak about what the goals of your site are. By and large I agree with what you've said, but there was just one small point that I see differently.
I just can't agree with this statement. There are many people, who are addicted to substances, that wish to keep the harm done from the substance to a minimum. Surely there is far more damage done to the body from one single high dose of paracetemol, than there is from years of daily codeine use? Personally speaking, for two years I was dependant on up to a gram codeine daily, and not once did the idea of skipping the CWE cross my mind, simply because I believed a high dose of paracetemol to be infinitely more damaging to my body than codeine.
Maxy said:
I just can't agree with this statement. There are many people, who are addicted to substances, that wish to keep the harm done from the substance to a minimum. Surely there is far more damage done to the body from one single high dose of paracetemol, than there is from years of daily codeine use? Personally speaking, for two years I was dependant on up to a gram codeine daily, and not once did the idea of skipping the CWE cross my mind, simply because I believed a high dose of paracetemol to be infinitely more damaging to my body than codeine.
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Hey peaked thanks for your post and kind words. I should also have mentioned that I am not an addict and that I started the site after a friend asked for help getting off 1.7 grams of codeine. She went CT so I decided to set up a sort of clearinghouse on detox options but it became more than that.
As I said before, some of our members use CWE but generally those that know about harm miminimisation dont bother. Those that come to the site already have any addiction or at least a dependency, and are looking to quit. They are not starting out looking for advice on how to use and, if they are I point them to other sites via direct email (though I dont advertise this).
Because tapering has such a low rate of success (less than half of one percent of members who got clean), HM doesnt come into play so much. They are either going CT or doing a Sub detox/substitution. Very few of the 7,000 that have been to the site used codeine recreationally from the start, most started out taking codeine for pain and then realised they enjoyed the side effects. I think this plays a big part in how they tackle things. I know I always researched anything (like E or speed) before I took it. Anyway, the goal as you know is to help people get clean and for them to reduce their isolation (you will note how many people come and say they thought they were the only one) and we have had a lot of success in helping peope turn their lives around. Most are women.
Last of all, though there is certainly risk in taking large amounts of apap (few do this) and ibuprofen, it is the side effects of the codiene itself that is destroying them at an emotional level. Codeine turns on you after a while and causes feelings of depression, rebound pain, absent or low sex drive, lack of motivation etc; so people our losing their kids, partners, jobs etc. I didnt post to start a debate I just wanted to let you guys know that I wasnt the one pushing for N+ to become prescription only (I believe it was the Pharmacy Board of NSW) and that I doubt that significant changes will be made from having read the TGA discussion. Best wishes with your work which I respect greatly.
As I said before, some of our members use CWE but generally those that know about harm miminimisation dont bother. Those that come to the site already have any addiction or at least a dependency, and are looking to quit. They are not starting out looking for advice on how to use and, if they are I point them to other sites via direct email (though I dont advertise this).
Because tapering has such a low rate of success (less than half of one percent of members who got clean), HM doesnt come into play so much. They are either going CT or doing a Sub detox/substitution. Very few of the 7,000 that have been to the site used codeine recreationally from the start, most started out taking codeine for pain and then realised they enjoyed the side effects. I think this plays a big part in how they tackle things. I know I always researched anything (like E or speed) before I took it. Anyway, the goal as you know is to help people get clean and for them to reduce their isolation (you will note how many people come and say they thought they were the only one) and we have had a lot of success in helping peope turn their lives around. Most are women.
Last of all, though there is certainly risk in taking large amounts of apap (few do this) and ibuprofen, it is the side effects of the codiene itself that is destroying them at an emotional level. Codeine turns on you after a while and causes feelings of depression, rebound pain, absent or low sex drive, lack of motivation etc; so people our losing their kids, partners, jobs etc. I didnt post to start a debate I just wanted to let you guys know that I wasnt the one pushing for N+ to become prescription only (I believe it was the Pharmacy Board of NSW) and that I doubt that significant changes will be made from having read the TGA discussion. Best wishes with your work which I respect greatly.
Yeah, that would be the most logical move for sure. Anyway, if people want to know about scheduling, they can check out my posts in dihydro products in Oz/pharmacist photo I.D. (closed thread)static_mind said:
Fact is, codeine is already a schedule 8 drug in Australia, assuming it's in it pure form. In other words, it has a high potential for abuse and physical/psychological addiction--which is obvious considering they're are so many people here who abuse it. If it is mixed with another ingredient and the content is below 15mg, it is schedule 3 (pharmacist only). If it is over 15mg and it is mixed with one other ingredient it is schedule 4 (prescription only).
So when you do a CWE on OTC products, you're essentially going from schedule 3 straight to schedule 8 because the codeine is practically in pure form.
peaked
Bluelighter
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I see what you mean now Maxy. Admittedly, I've always downplayed emotional damage and tended to focus solely on the physical side effects - and in that regard, apart from some indigestion problems, there was little for me to complain about from codeine. But in the emotional sense there was certainly many undesirable effects - for a long time my number one priority was simply to obtain another codeine dose. And in that regard, I can see how codeine would be viewed as the issue, since the codeine is the sole reason people are lead to consume the paracetemol in the first place.
I found it interesting to hear that many people found tapering unsuccessful. I too tried many times to quit with tapering, but found my dose would just "yo-yo" down and up. Cold turkey seemed like the only way, but that also took me a number of attempts, in that the first few tries I'd not be able to handle the withdrawal affects and would "reward" myself for a few days break with another dose.
Like wise, I didn't post to start a debate about your methods. No doubt you've done a lot of great work on your website, as the many thousands who've been helped by it can surely attest, and anyone who's had problems with codeine should be able to appreciate that.
I found it interesting to hear that many people found tapering unsuccessful. I too tried many times to quit with tapering, but found my dose would just "yo-yo" down and up. Cold turkey seemed like the only way, but that also took me a number of attempts, in that the first few tries I'd not be able to handle the withdrawal affects and would "reward" myself for a few days break with another dose.
Like wise, I didn't post to start a debate about your methods. No doubt you've done a lot of great work on your website, as the many thousands who've been helped by it can surely attest, and anyone who's had problems with codeine should be able to appreciate that.