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NEWS: Drug prohibition doesn't work - so what do we do next?

People keep stating that some users will take drugs to help keep them active and work longer hours etc... I think with legalising drugs and regulating them, that more workplaces will bring in drug codes like the place I work at.

I cannot come to work with any drug in my system, from alcohol to heroin. I have to even tell our PA if I'm taking headache tablets. Because i work in an environment that must be maintained in a safe manner.

If drugs were made legal, then I guess all workplaces will bring in similar codes so you wouldnt be able to rock up to work stoned off your head, or high as a kite. You'd be told to go home, and you wouldnt get paid.

WHy do people constantly think everyone is going to get messed off their heads and be unproductive. If you do this, you wont get paid and wont be able to buy your drugs.

I think that with random workplace drug tests in the majority of workplaces would be a good idea.

ALthough with things like marijuana staying in your system for up to 30 days, and MDMA staying in for 3-5 days etc, it might make people use less than they want to.

I still think drugfree workplaces and legalising drugs could go hand in hand.
If drugs were legal I imagine that workplace tests would take the approach of the roadside drug testing and test for intoxication rather than testing for the presence of drugs in the system.
 
^True, but at my place of work, I cannot have any drugs in the system. I'd prefer it to be the intoxication/under the influence as I know 2 days after having MDMA i'm fine... but it's still in my system for 5 days etc.

Either way, I thinking testing would prevent a high % of punters from going to work under the influence. So this is not a valid reason for not making it legal as some people have tried to argue ITT.
 
Many arguments are about as good as those put forward for why you shouldn't masturbate...

I'm not allowed to work drunk and I do sometimes get breatho'd when working over time on weekends as there have been many cases of guys showing up to work half pissed after a big night out

I would expect the same treatment for drugs because marijuana raped and killed my family members =D
 
I’ve just come back from spending several months in India, where like Australia; the issue of prohibition is always a hot topic of discussion. Interestingly while relaxing there sitting on a houseboat in Kashmir staring at the Himalaya, I was frequently offered opium and hashish from the vendors who cruise around the lake on their boats, each one a mobile corner store selling everything from soft drinks, local produce and of course opium, hash and other assorted goodies. :) Occasionally if the vendor had the right connections and at the right price you could get alcohol but you really had to keep this under the radar as this part of India has a predominantly Muslim society and alcohol is a definite no, no. The point being, as many of you know is that in different countries prohibition can take on many forms. What’s legal here is maybe illegal elsewhere. To highlight this in some states of India alcohol is completely illegal and as a consequence black market illicit moonshine is produced and sold with sometimes catastrophic consequences.

India: Moonshine Deaths Stir Alcohol Prohibition Debate in Gujarat: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle...ion_deaths_in_gujarat_india_stir_debate?print Quote: “Last week, 136 people died in the Indian state of Gujarat after drinking tainted alcohol, and the incident has stirred debate over the state's alcohol prohibition policy, in existence since 1960. One of India's "liquor barons" has invited the state government to do away with prohibition, and the state government has invited him to shut up about it.”

Alcohol prohibition was once a phenomenon in the west. What it created was an underground illicit industry of alcohol production and the first real makings of organised crime in the modern age. Sound familiar? Since then we have moved from alcohol prohibition to an almost open free market economy of the production and sale of alcohol with devastating consequences. Let’s face it outside of tobacco it’s our biggest killer. From the extreme of prohibition to the current situation, we’ve missed the opportunity of stricter regulations on the sale and production of alcohol in this country; this missed opportunity has been sidelined and has really taken a back seat to an apparent real evil ........ Yes, you guessed it, ILLEGAL DRUGS!!!!!. (Just to get in the mood, please insert favourite government cliché, anti drugs rhetoric and poignant heartbreaking music to highlight the pain and suffering to the youth of Australia and someone shrieking, “What about the children!!!”)

Please don’t get me wrong, I think the prohibition of alcohol or for that matter any substance is fraught with dangers. It’s just dumb! The problem as I see it, Australia hasn’t really grown up; we still rely on mythological scary creatures like prohibition to keep the threads of social order together. As long as we lock the boogey man of illegal drugs out at night we can sleep soundly knowing that our children will be safe. Other countries are a bit more pragmatic and grown up with regard to the issue of drugs, the Netherlands, Portugal and even the bastion of prohibition the USA is starting to question the folly of a War on Drugs.

The question could be asked, “What’s happened in Australia that has stalled the move towards regulation of drugs as an alternative to prohibition?” Why are we stuck in this situation where any politician in this country who dares to question the current drugs status quo risks political suicide? When the best practice principles of harm reduction are placed in question when some redneck, born again politician can’t even read the evidence with regard to drugs and harm reduction, other than groaning on about the tired old principle of, “Just say no to drugs.” Prohibition just doesn’t work and is probably one of the most harmful aspects of drug use; to state the obvious; peoples’ lives can be ruined by the legal implications of dabbling in drugs.

Interestingly I believe that this country was closer to questioning the issue of prohibition in the late 1980’s and early 90’s due to the pending threat of a HIV/AIDS pandemic. This was a very real issue to use as a vehicle in challenging prohibition. Consequently harm reduction principles became the core business of drug and alcohol services and there was an air of optimism that things might change with regard to the law. But then several things happened, firstly John Howard was elected and thus begun the recent dark ages of conservatism within this country with regard to illicit drug use. His 10 year legacy and the subsequent hangover that he has left us with will take many years to change back to a rational and ethical debate around alternatives to prohibition. His legacy was to recreate the culture of fear and the sad thing is that he was very good at it.

Secondly, around 1999/2000 the Australian heroin drought began resulting in a significant drop in overdose related deaths. Howard naturally took credit for this, although anecdotally the word was that as things were getting a bit hot for organised crime with regard to the importation of heroin and as the Australian heroin using population was fairly small compared to the potential market of the affluent, emerging middle class, youth population in Indonesia and other south east Asian markets, the risks in Australia were just not viable. The economic cost benefits did not weigh up and they took their business elsewhere. Whether people believe that or not, either way you look at it, the availability of heroin dropped off significantly in this country and there was a subsequent reduction in overdose rates. Don’t get me wrong, the end result was a great outcome with regard to a reduction in harm. Although I believe it contributed to softening of debate by individuals in questioning the folly of prohibition, after all, the media’s pet big killer; heroin, was no longer an issue.

While all of this played out in the media some of the worlds best harm reduction strategies that were previously introduced; i.e. needle and syringe programs, targeted safe sex initiatives, better access to pharmacotherapy’s were quietly getting fantastic results. On the back of this, conservatism in this country took any good outcomes and stated that they were the results, of the War on Drugs, “Just Saying No, really does work.” The fears of an AIDS epidemic subsided in Australia and support for prohibition once again gathered strength. New drug scourges broke out, Ecstasy, the terrifying drug that would fry your brain and kill. Hydro, not the pot that mums and dads smoked in the 70’s this was 30% stronger and led to psychosis. “What about the children!” The media love it! They’re so good at it and the masses lap it up, it’s my favourite form of popular fiction these days! Can’t get enough of the hysteria! Who said the TV show,’ Lost’, got lost and the plot makes no sense? Prohibition leaves it for dead! It really makes no sense and every time you think you’ve got a sense of what’s happening out of left field a new sinister, more terrifying episode plays out.

The bottom line for me though, is that whatever option we look at from prohibition through to completely unbridled deregulation, there will always be problems. The question is as, Stephen Mugford sums up in, “Least bad solutions to the 'drugs problem'. (Unfortunately I don’t have a link to the paper), “What is the best of the bad options in dealing with the issue of drugs? He questions the rationale in keeping with prohibition and says all of the alternatives, decriminalisation, regulation and open legalisation all have issues and problems inherent with them and that we need to examine them and ask “What’s the best of the bad options?” For me we’ve tried prohibition and it will never achieve anything of value, it’s caused every problem that it was apparently designed to deal with. If aliens exist they must look at us humans and really piss themselves laughing at how stupid we are in maintaining prohibition. And no, I’m not an alien although coming back to Australia after several months in the mountains of India, I’m starting to question whether I am and I just never realised it previously.

Sorry about the ramble, I haven’t been near the net in a while and reading this thread has been a really great welcome back to technology for me, great to hear people questioning prohibition.
 
Either way, I thinking testing would prevent a high % of punters from going to work under the influence. So this is not a valid reason for not making it legal as some people have tried to argue ITT.

If you're talking about my posts, I've said repeatedly that I support legislation. What I keep trying to point out though is that legislation is not entirely without problems and I think it's useful to think about them, rather than thinking of legislation as a cure all. Do you think that the amount of drug users (and therefore troublesome users/addicts) will increase with legislation? I'm curious as to what people's opinion of this is. To me, it seems that drug use would increase, simply because so many people have the attitude that doing legal drugs are ok, while illegal drugs are not (regardless of the health consequences). However I know Psilo has some data suggesting that overall use drops. Any other evidence/opinions?
 
I just don't see society, in particularly Australia not increasing it's intake. Prescription medicine still requires sensible and responsible administration. I would hate to think what sort of damage would occur if the PBS schedule was opened to the "google generation" via over the counter sales. Some drugs should be eased, I think cannabis is the most likely given 80% of all arrests are for this and many lives are affected not by the drug it self but the criminal record. Saying everything should be available to all is foolish or short sighted.

As much as I have enjoyed MDMA over the years, even in it's purest form it has health/mental consequences. Sure it is not as evil as drug crusaders would argue, but overdose is very easy in relatively small doses. You only have to head out any Saturday night and see the sweaty mess sitting on the couch gurning on their 4th pill. Do they look healthy? Is their body experiencing side effects? I don't need a long term study to tell me if I am suffering from a comedown 3-4 days later I have probably caused some brain damage. People talk about education yet even the smartest person on Bluelight has been that sweaty gurner at some stage. All this talk about Freedom in a country with medicare. I would quite happily take back 2.5% of my income every year if it meant I could do what ever I wanted with my body. I shouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for my hedonism. Who here is willing to forego access to public hospitals for the rest of their life in exchange for "Freedom"?

As for heroin, why not just ease restrictions on medical morphine? As a society, Australia abuses codeine based preparations to such an extent that I could imagine OTC sales of this being stopped before any thing else.Who here can argue that there was not sufficient reason to prohibit opium dens around the world in the 19th century? Did humans show any restraint with opium?
 
There is less harm in legalizing all drugs than what we have today...

Legalize all drugs, get the proper information out there about all drugs, prescribe/add taxes and we wont have a large percentage of the mess we see in today's society of prohibition

I'm not too sure about complete legalisation of all drugs. You can't be so definite as to say that less harm will occur once these substances of known purity are available to the public. We already know that with drugs like alcohol that a lot of people cannot be trusted. The courts would have to be completely revamped with respect to drug fueled violence so that the consequences for your actions are met with due punishment.

Don't get me wrong the concept of drug legalisation is extremely viable from where we are now but with a population that can't even handle alcohol I highly doubt it.

While drugs are illegal there is little information given to kids in school other than them being "BAD". When kids smoke their first joint/drop first pill and find out they've been lied to they will go and throw all sorts of crap into their bodies without a care.

If you were to inform kids of the physical and mental risks associated with all drugs from a young age they are way less likely to use drugs and far less likely to fall into the circle of addiction.

In essence what you are saying is correct. Children do develop their lifetime morals at younger ages but popular drugs are harmful (neurotoxic etc.) and it's a lot easier especially with government advertising mediums to fear monger instead of present facts.

What forms of education would you include for children instead of the aforementioned? Mandatory classes in school? Pamphlets? It needs a lot more work than just saying 'educate' adolescents.

I don't see drug legalization leading to drug use of epic proportions, in fact, it has been proven that decriminalization/legalization leads to less drug use throughout communities.

Do you think that society will all become useless drug users or something if everything were legal?
What countries have legalised drugs? I agree that illicit substances should be decriminalised because quiet frankly you aren't a criminal from my perspective but the whole idea needs some work other than just legalise and tax
 
I just don't see society, in particularly Australia not increasing it's intake. Prescription medicine still requires sensible and responsible administration. I would hate to think what sort of damage would occur if the PBS schedule was opened to the "google generation" via over the counter sales. Some drugs should be eased, I think cannabis is the most likely given 80% of all arrests are for this and many lives are affected not by the drug it self but the criminal record. Saying everything should be available to all is foolish or short sighted.

As much as I have enjoyed MDMA over the years, even in it's purest form it has health/mental consequences. Sure it is not as evil as drug crusaders would argue, but overdose is very easy in relatively small doses. You only have to head out any Saturday night and see the sweaty mess sitting on the couch gurning on their 4th pill. Do they look healthy? Is their body experiencing side effects? I don't need a long term study to tell me if I am suffering from a comedown 3-4 days later I have probably caused some brain damage. People talk about education yet even the smartest person on Bluelight has been that sweaty gurner at some stage. All this talk about Freedom in a country with medicare. I would quite happily take back 2.5% of my income every year if it meant I could do what ever I wanted with my body. I shouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for my hedonism. Who here is willing to forego access to public hospitals for the rest of their life in exchange for "Freedom"?

As for heroin, why not just ease restrictions on medical morphine? As a society, Australia abuses codeine based preparations to such an extent that I could imagine OTC sales of this being stopped before any thing else.Who here can argue that there was not sufficient reason to prohibit opium dens around the world in the 19th century? Did humans show any restraint with opium?
Great post. I can't understand the concept of Australians not increasing usage. Our culture is reliant on alcohol at the moment...
 
I just don't see society, in particularly Australia not increasing it's intake. Prescription medicine still requires sensible and responsible administration. I would hate to think what sort of damage would occur if the PBS schedule was opened to the "google generation" via over the counter sales.

Who has said that it would? Total straw man. This is what I meant when I said you aren't even trying to understand the regulation argument. Obviously heroin would only ever be administered by health professional's, it wouldn't be an open market (like it is now), and it wouldn't be OTC, it's a matter of medicalising addiction. The methadone maintenance programme has worked well over over 25 years, there is no reason why a heroin maintenance programme couldn't work along the same lines.

I have probably caused some brain damage. People talk about education yet even the smartest person on Bluelight has been that sweaty gurner at some stage. All this talk about Freedom in a country with medicare. I would quite happily take back 2.5% of my income every year if it meant I could do what ever I wanted with my body. I shouldn't expect the tax payer to pay for my hedonism. Who here is willing to forego access to public hospitals for the rest of their life in exchange for "Freedom"?

But the tax payer already IS paying for peoples hedonism, how would regulating drugs change that by one iota? And if the price of hedonism is as bad as you make out (which I doubt, but for the sake of the argument), like you point out you have never had any problem sourcing drugs, why would anyone else be any different? People can still get drugs now with ease and the tax payer will still have to pick up the bill if something goes wrong Except that with the status quo you are also paying taxes for every time somebody drops from taking a PMA pill, or people eating shitty speed bombs for days on end and then going into psychosis, because drugs are an unregulated market without oversight by the TGA.

This line of reasoning is a total non sequiter. Argue against public health if you really care about where your taxes are going, but it doesn't follow as an argument against regulating the drug market.
 
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Who has said that it would? Total straw man. This is what I meant when I said you aren't even trying to understand the regulation argument.

Do you not see increased recreational drug use as a problem? Are you really saying drugs are not inherently, in some way, bad for you?

But the tax payer already IS paying for peoples hedonism, how would regulating drugs change that by one iota? And if the price of hedonism is as bad as you make out (which I doubt, but for the sake of the argument)

Because there would be a massive rise in hospital visits ranging from users smoking too much ganja on their first puff to users wigging out and throwing punches from taking too many hits. Of course there is no way to "prove" that this would happen, but all you need to do is look at how Australia treats its favourite legal drug, alcohol, to know that current illicit drugs would be just as badly abused.
 
The increase in recreational drug use would LIKEY be minor, and only in the early stages.

Let's also not forget that almost all the fatalities caused by impure drugs/unsafe drug would be nearly eliminated due to people using easy to get Prescrition or OTC drugs. If education was implemented effectively (the most challenging part) people will know the risks and MOST will stick to what is safe.
 
The increase in recreational drug use would LIKEY be minor, and only in the early stages.

Let's also not forget that almost all the fatalities caused by impure drugs/unsafe drug would be nearly eliminated due to people using easy to get Prescrition or OTC drugs. If education was implemented effectively (the most challenging part) people will know the risks and MOST will stick to what is safe.

While death is certainly a concern when taking (some) illicit drugs, it certainly is not the only pitfall. There are many problems that can result from drug abuse, such as the ever-worrying Serotonin Syndrome, HPPD and numerous others. As far as the strain on the healthcare system goes, problems like this are even worse for us than death!! It costs much more to keep someone alive than it does to bury them.
 
While death is certainly a concern when taking (some) illicit drugs, it certainly is not the only pitfall. There are many problems that can result from drug abuse, such as the ever-worrying Serotonin Syndrome, HPPD and numerous others. As far as the strain on the healthcare system goes, problems like this are even worse for us than death!! It costs much more to keep someone alive than it does to bury them.

An important point chemi. I forgot about the long term effects.

Yes, we would have mcuh the same situation as alcohol, but HOPEFULLY most people will learn that moderation is the key, and with clearly set out information on dosing and recommended time between dosing things would be a hell of a lot easier.

Of course there would be those reckless people that get into a bad habit or simply don't care, but there is not a great deal we can do about them. We can assist them as much as possible but they have to be willing to change their drug habits. It won't be much different from how it is at the moment. Some will be able to maintain a responsible, safe drug habit and some won't.
 
The increase in recreational drug use would LIKEY be minor, and only in the early stages.

Let's also not forget that almost all the fatalities caused by impure drugs/unsafe drug would be nearly eliminated due to people using easy to get Prescrition or OTC drugs. If education was implemented effectively (the most challenging part) people will know the risks and MOST will stick to what is safe.

I'm interested on why you think it would be only a minor rise? It's obviously a complicated issue, but I can't really see why it would only be a minor rise, when as Chemi said, Australians haven't shown they can use psychoactive substances in a responsible way. I don't see why people who risk their health with alcohol and tobacco would suddenly draw the line when it came to meth or heroin. But I'm very open to hearing alternate points of view.
 
i would love it if there were a store i could go to run by nice nurses and doctors and buy a shot of heroin adjusted for tolerance. legally. like mabye a nice place to sit and a phlebotomist will come in and ask how i am and ill tell her im fine and that i just want to relax afer a hard day of work. and then shell say well this should do the trick. hits me with a clean needle and pharm grade diamorphine. and i walk out and head home (on foot). they could set limits. (sir you just did some yesterday, we dont want to get you addicted now. come back later this week.) sounds good to me. but that woluld require a lot of responsibilty on the part of people. and most people are idiots when it comes to drugs.
 
Is the social cost of drug prohibition worth the results of keeping people off drugs because it's good for them? Numerous countries completely corrupted, huge law enforcement expenditures (US spent over 2 trillion alone) and prisons which have 75% inmate populations due to drug issues, untold deaths due to the War? NO.

A sensible approach would work. We know that prohibition has failed. Open your minds, not everyone WANTS to do drugs, but adults should be allowed to make intelligent choices about their own bodies and if that includes using substances, then so be it. Freedom is the issue...
 
I'm interested on why you think it would be only a minor rise? It's obviously a complicated issue, but I can't really see why it would only be a minor rise, when as Chemi said, Australians haven't shown they can use psychoactive substances in a responsible way. I don't see why people who risk their health with alcohol and tobacco would suddenly draw the line when it came to meth or heroin. But I'm very open to hearing alternate points of view.

I know Australian's have a lot more reckless drug use habits than other nations, but it's not exactly if drugs are hard to find at the moment. As has been shown in Amsterdam, at the start of legalisation a greater number of people are sampling drugs they never had acess to before, but for most the novelty wears out after a few years, when education and first-hand experiences start effecting user's opinions of drugs. How Australia will differ from other nations in it's drug habits I can't exactly say, only guesswork really

I know many people who smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol that have acess to good quality Heroin/Meth at affordable prices but choose not to touch it. Legalisation would do very little to change many of these people's attitudes of "harder" or more addictive and habit forming drugs. Some that have been personally effected by drug addiction or know family or friends who were addicted will also usually stay far away from the more addictive drugs. The stigma has been imbedded and probably won't ever leave.

I'm sure with good quality MDMA + a huge possible range of RC's/Designer drugs people wouldn't exactly be short of psychoactive substances.

Sure, a different spectrum of people would be able to obtain drugs, but it's not as if these people couldn't just go out and source them illegaly at the moment.

Almost forgot; the big one: MONEY!!

With prohibition abolished the masses of money going directly into drug dealer's pockets, Drug enforcement and those in the legal profession would instead go the government. This would save a monumental amount of cash across the globe. Health needs for drug users would be able to be addressed a lot more efficiently and directly due to the lack of red tape and legal loopholes that are now present. Users would also be more willing to admit they have a problem and seek help. Dosage recommendations and reliable pharm. drugs would also give people a lot more knowledge of what they are doing to their bodies.

New drugs developed by the pharmaceutical industry could potentially present safe, effective drugs without the addiction and safety risks that current drugs carry. Research into current drugs would also be increased significantly, giving us a much clearer view of how many common drugs today work, many of which we have little idea about.
 
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Obviously heroin would only ever be administered by health professional's, it wouldn't be an open market (like it is now), and it wouldn't be OTC, it's a matter of medicalising addiction.

What is your idea of legalization? As iv stated earlyer iv no problems with addict's recieving what ever drugs they require to help them better their lives but my idea of legailization is having it avaliable to your average joe some how or another.

Is that what you mean because your above post seems to point to otherwise and falls rather closely in line with my opinion on drugs.

Also a question from early for everyone, how do you feel about pharmasutical drugs being on the market that have failed/never had a clinical trial?
 
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