"New Internet drug kills 14 swedes" (5-IT)

Paddington, could you elaborate more on the situation with 5-IT? How popular is it? Is the drug community aware of these purported fatalities? You mention lots of talk of this compounds toxicity amongst users, care to explain more? What is the usual route of administration, doses, etc? What other substances is it commonly mixed with? Thanks for the help, i am very interested in this. . . .
 
Amanitadine and others who might be able to shed some needed light on this rather acute subject:

Generally on the Swedish situation and rc-scene/communities
Well, the big source of info and discussions on drugs and other things in life in sweden is Flashback.org, this prticular tragedy is highlighted in this thread,in swedish of course :https://www.flashback.org/t1925912

The public institute for health is what I know the source for this and they list symptoms that can be felt slightly on higher doses as symptoms when intoxicated by 5-IT, but really only body temperature is what people notice when using amounts < 150-200 mg.

The institutes article translated is the most accurate I have:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fhi.se%2FAktuellt%2FNyheter%2FFolkhalsoinstitutet-foreslar-forbud-for-ny-livsfarlig-natdrog%2F


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fhi.se%2FAktuellt%2FNyheter%2FFolkhalsoinstitutet-foreslar-forbud-for-ny-livsfarlig-natdrog%2F

It says nothing about general toxicity or the liver damages that has been reported in people that has become unconcious and placed with respiratory assistance according to "friends" on flashback community. They either claim to not know what dose caused their friends to get sick or claim overdosing due to lack of info or slow onset causing redosing.

There are also a few users that has redosed online on flashback and gone from "this shit is garbage" to "I feel so great" to "I am so wasted that I just sit and shake and sweat" and thereafter not posting again. Horror.

By know the media is eating this biscuit and made sure no one missed that there is a deathdrug cirkulating and the customs have sharpened control. On flasback it is a top subject among drugs, but still nothing but speculating that proves that the substance becomes dangerous even on low doses and good experinces, just talk about irreversible liver damage that you cant feel until it too late.

The people who used and enjpyed 5-IT continues to take it in controlled manner, I read, therefore it is very, very critical to prove or rule out any chances of killing yourself without feeling it, again, this is one of the most light and un-toxical feelin drugs that most users taking right amounts ever tried, making it probable to decidevthat the drug is deadly when overdosed like most drugs. If they are wrong more people will show up at the morgue

Worth noticing is that this news are really deaths occured from april until now, but the medical lab had no explicit routine for determining 5-IT until know and it showed up in 2 deaths without other drugs (probably many rcs are not detected yet), the other 12 had 5-IT among other drugs in their bodies.

The ultimate nightmare would be if other countries simply dont recognize 5-it and far more deaths are connected than we know of today.


Background on sources and availability in Sweden

The substance became widely available nationally on a major supplier named no sources that started selling 5-IT around perhaps beginning of may or in may this year. It has been available from other sources before but since this is the perhaps biggest reseller of legal rc drugs in Sweden they started the threads on its effect.

As expected the almost non existent effects after 1h oral ingestion and the shulgin note of trying 20 mgs made most of the guinea pigs dissapointed, me included. 20 mgs has no effects on most people in the quality that Buckl. vendor in uk are selling it or no sources sold it.

They seem to be the same batches by the way. I had them both and used 100-200 mg per night on my vacation some days in a row, felt very light on the body, just some bad mood a few days after, norhing physical that you can feel at least.

But there might be other vendors who could have sold contaminated bathces or stronger batces, it is not known what vendor it was that sold to the people getting sick.

Is it likely that all users not experiencing the mentioned intoxicationeffects still really run a risk ruining their livers or other organs without any signs under light use of the substance? Anyone with medical or chemical knowledge?
Interactions?

Personal thoughts and findings
To me the onset is very much serotonin related while the 10-12 hour soft and floaty energyfilled buzz feels like good amphetamine making it hard to rule out dopaminergic or Nor-ephinephrine(?) related action.

No real push to redose, no anxiety on comedown. Really great stimulant, to put it simple, on a subjective perspective.

Maybe one should use l-tryptophan inbetween(when?) doses to help up the serotonin?

Another potential danger by the way is that you get active and hot but dont feel like drinking...seems doserelated, so an od could probably cause severe overheating and dehydration quite fast.

People have combined it with ethyphenidate and methylphenidate on the later stages of the duration, and with benzodiazepines as well as alkohol in moderate amounts repeatedly without any immediate ill effects. I dont say it is safe, but it will not kill everyone apparently.

SSRIs or MAOis is not mentioned, could be a player?

Many thanks for any sources or well underbuilt speculations on this from you people on BL. This is really rather important.

/Patrik
 
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Thanks for the info Paddington, but I have more questions than answers. And thats just the thing, there is only speculation in situations like these. There are only a couple of mentions in the literature, nothing pertinent, and the closest substance for which there is even any binding data is 5-APB, which just shows it is a fairly selective and strong releaser of serotonin. Duh. This one looked and sounded fishy at first sight, and several sane people around here sounded the alarm, or at least urged caution. As the reports trickled in it sounded sketchier and sketchier. . . Looong come up, long duration, all the usual serotonin hallmarks.. Bruxism, hyperthermia, the empathy, etc. To tell you the truth some of these reports reminded me of my early experiments with PMA and PMMA, back in the early 90's, before anybody knew any better. My interest in 5-IT was triggered by the weird choice, how strangely it entered the market, and was piqued again when a big vendor abruptly stopped selling it 3 weeks ago, citing that some of their customers were "abusing" it. Laughable. Anybody who saw the mephedrone shitstorm unfold knows that is exactly what a vendor wants: more business. A few other vendors followed suit. So I can't say this doesn't surprise me, but that doesn't make it any less horrible.. .

I, and likely no one else, has any answers to your questions regarding toxicity. That's the problem, and why chemicals shouldn't be vended so irresponsibly. What gives one dude serotonin syndrome won't give the next ten dudes, and vice versa. What makes an individual prone to such is poorly understood, and thats why putting something like this in wide circulation is foolish, let alone dangerous. It's a crap shoot. Sure sounds like acute serotonin toxicity. It would seem unlikely that the fatalities were due to serotonin release alone, but like I said, all bets are off here. Phenethylamine SAR only goes so far, tryptamine even less, and with no information on toxicity we are fumbling in the dark. But yeah, renal failure often results from extreme cases of serotonin syndrome. I would stay away, far away. Any more information you get, from flashback, the press, etc, please post here. Be safe.
 
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Paddington said:
Well, the big source of info and discussions on drugs and other things in life in sweden is Flashback.org, this prticular tragedy is highlighted in this thread,in swedish of course :https://www.flashback.org/t1925912
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I'd realy like to know how the Swedes stand in this, what they have to say. Unfortunatly google translate doesn't seem to work on this website. Please keep us posted Paddington!
 
ktp said:
you have to copy&paste the single pages to google translate.

actually strange stuff there:
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Scary shit. I would have thought getting a leg amputated like that would be due to an arterial thrombus which would point to the drug doing something with blood coagulation (in predisposed individuals) and also having strong vasoconstriction properties.

This drug looks like a disaster waiting to happen for anyone already on a psychotropic (legal or illegal). There seems to be a % of RC users who take them without considering first any potential interactions with any drugs they are also taking, even SSRIs and similar.
 
Thank you for replying. I will as soon as more info is released, IF it is.

What kind of measurescare there to reduce serotonin syndrome n terms of precursor post or pre-intake ( l-tryptophan ?).

Which combinations are likely to increase the risk?

I my self used 20 mg of methylphenidate on its tapering off phase to get some momentum, and it felt just ok. Might be very stupid combo if it is so much of a serotonin relying substance??

Id say that the drive and horniness felt on the long plateu mimics an amphetamine though even if onset feel almost like mdma.
I understand that it is safest to be away but want to spread some info.
 
Paddington, nobody knows the cause, and as such there is no way to reduce the risk, except to not take it. Serotonin syndrome, vasoconstriction, whatever, we don't know yet. I would not recommend taking tryptophan, at all.
 
Well first let me say that I think this is all scare tactics. 5-IT is a great drug. Just obviously you have to know your dose. Even if this report WAS true, it means absolutely nothing, other than people were misinformed, unlucky, or stupid. I was like that before and I overdosed too. We all learn our lessons sooner or later. But basically what I'm saying is that if people are going to be stupid and overdose on something, then obviously it will kill them. This goes for water, food, or anything for that matter. I think weed is one of the only substances known to man that it is literally impossible to OD on and die. So, don't blame the drug- Blame the ignorance, and the fact that they don't label the doses on the packaging.

Also people are talking about combos being dangerous. I'm sure they are, but I just wanted to state that I have now taken 5-IT in combo with many other drugs. I survived, and didn't even really come close to dying, other than I had a pretty high fever, and felt like I was having a heart attack at points, but I'm used to that. Probably mild serotonin syndrome. I've had much worse. I started getting the exreme heart rate when I added in the 4-FMA into the mix. But I rolled awesome off the combo. I took 5-IT, b1(Butyone), 4-FMC, 4-FMA, MDPV, Alcohol, Weed all on the same night, and it was one of the most cracked out, yet peaceful rolls I've ever had at the same time. Absolutely awesome, but make sure you don't do this around anyone sober- You'll annoy the fucking shit out of them!!!! LOL could not stop talking all night. Basically I started with the B1 and Fleph and I was coming up on a very peaceful roll, just like the late 90's pills. Then later I took some 4-FMA and MDPV. And finally topped off with 5-IT. 5-IT helped with the comedown of the fleph/b1/4-fma/mdpv combo I was coming off of. Continued to roll, redosed each throughout the night and was fine. Also redosed the 5-IT...and took again the next day. Didn't really sleep...and literally rolled for probably over 36 hours straight from redosing.

I want to say the tolerence issue is not a problem with 5-IT. You can dose far more than MDMA and still feel fine for that week. I do think it's a miracle drug for anyone who likes to roll and doesn't mind the long duration or slightly dirty side effects(but for the most part 5-IT feels like a clean, non toxic drug) I have a bad liver too...so I would notice if the drug was harmful to the liver. I can tell you that MDMA is harmful to your liver especially in combination. But even with combining all of these RC's, my liver feels fine lately. Just a little tightness, but not as much as you'd expect from doing a crazy combo like that.

Bottom line is, I dont like to see people saying this is the worst drug around, when infact it is one of the best. Long term side effects are not a concern of most people, and we know short term, there are virtually no side effects with this drug. Almost all reports are positive. It exceeded my expectations so if you haven't tried it, don't be scared off by nonsense like people dying from overdose. Just do your research, and you'll know the right dose. No one has been reported to die at normal doses.
 
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Seems like it left you with some brain damage however, your thought processes are hard to follow ( I didn't die so it's ok, bra) and your cognitive abilities leave a bit to be desired. Or were you born that way?

And tell me, you have a bad liver, so you'd notice if this was bad for it? How's that work?

Don't blame the drug? Does that logic follow for all substances? PMMA? 4- chloro amphetamine? MPTP?

A high fever and feeling like you were having a heart attack (sic) qualifies as "mild serotonin syndrome?" I'd say it qualifies as a high fever and feeling like you were having a heart attack. And certainly doesn't sound mild.

So, if this is all scare tactics, are all of the reports (there are lots!) of such over at Flashback made up too? Damn, the man is good! Is the Swedish man, or the American man? Or the New World Order man?

You describe it as a "clean non toxic drug". Your description begs to differ. Which one is it?

So, if I follow, "this drug isn't one of the worst, it's one of the best" because you haven't died yet? Got ya.

You advise to not do it around someone sober, as you will annoy the shit out of them. THIS we can agree on, as you've annoyed the shit out of me. Or maybe just depressed me. . .fine line these days.

It is no wonder people are croaking off of research chemicals. Natural selection at work.

Keep rollin' balls, bro!
 
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I've been translating some of the posts on flashback and there are def. some Swedes out there who consider these deaths might be dose dependant. As should every normal thinking human being.
Scare tactics is a posibillity if you ask me...
 
It seems all but irrelevant to me at this point as to whether or not these deaths are a direct result of 5-IT. It would be quite foolish to assume anything, and thus due caution would be advised until we know more. . .
 
westergas said:
I've been translating some of the posts on flashback and there are def. some Swedes out there who consider these deaths might be dose dependant. As should every normal thinking human being.
Scare tactics is a posibillity if you ask me...
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I am a quite frequent poster in the two major threads regarding the substance. But the discussion only turn into extremes with the conservatives getting a chance to claim "told you drugs should be banned, you idiots".

Then some OT discussion starts to arguing about the fact that that alcohol in 3 times a high dose kills and that the laws are responible for this ignorance.

That is a relevant discussion, but the focus on the one question I think is important to answer to prevent more deaths or find a "safe use" profile for 5-it is unanswered; Has there been any hospital visits, comas, liver failures, amputation bla, bla, bla, without overdosing as the cause?

Numerous users write about how ill friend x got or how near they were death, but not one singel confirmation points out damages from longer term, low dose use. They just dont reply to it! And officials only report what seems to be large overdoses, anxiety, unconciousness, dizzyness and disorientaion and so on.

Hence, people still use 5-it, and the authorities would never state anything as liberal as a "safe dose" or make difference between use and abuse. It is against the line of zero tolerance.

Sweden has a sharia-like policy of zero tolerance on drugs making people place all illegal drugs under the same label, and believing that whats legal cant really be that harmful. Users/non-users are treated the same way; get a "drugabuser" label and you are disqualified for everything, socially and in law, more or less.

A positive urine test in sweden can get you to jail and will likely stop you from getting a qualified job since its on your record and 50% og the employers use the right to get a criminal record along your CV.

The repressive laws force people into RCs to protect their future abilities to act in society. And the kids are not believing the info since they are used to scare tactics. A real mess and almost undiscussable topic here.

So here we go, with likely hundreds of users just in sweden doing a drug that might be a real nice one, but in a worst case scenario they are tapering of to hospital without anybody noticing on the boards.

I have had 2-3g used in 150mg doses this summer and feel absolutely nothing bad. But If my liver is fine is hard to tell. Time will I guess.

/Patrik
 
amanitadine said:
Seems like it left you with some brain damage however, your thought processes are hard to follow ( I didn't die so it's ok, bra) and your cognitive abilities leave a bit to be desired. Or were you born that way?

And tell me, you have a bad liver, so you'd notice if this was bad for it? How's that work?

Don't blame the drug? Does that logic follow for all substances? PMMA? 4- chloro amphetamine? MPTP?

A high fever and feeling like you were having a heart attack (sic) qualifies as "mild serotonin syndrome?" I'd say it qualifies as a high fever and feeling like you were having a heart attack. And certainly doesn't sound mild.

So, if this is all scare tactics, are all of the reports (there are lots!) of such over at Flashback made up too? Damn, the man is good! Is the Swedish man, or the American man? Or the New World Order man?

You describe it as a "clean non toxic drug". Your description begs to differ. Which one is it?

So, if I follow, "this drug isn't one of the worst, it's one of the best" because you haven't died yet? Got ya.

You advise to not do it around someone sober, as you will annoy the shit out of them. THIS we can agree on, as you've annoyed the shit out of me. Or maybe just depressed me. . .fine line these days.

It is no wonder people are croaking off of research chemicals. Natural selection at work.

Keep rollin' balls, bro!
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I wasn't born that way. I did fry my brain in the past...I already admitted that. I used to be completely ignorant when I was younger...so I basically just did some insane shit, had a massive OD on a mixture of shit that literally is far more toxic than MDMA itself. So that messed me up for life. But not to the point of being hopeless. Just made me dull. I still don't think 5-IT has this kind of effect, or else I would of noticed. I am not saying just because I haven't died, that it is safe. I was just making a point that if it was dangerous, I should of gotten some kind of bad after effect considering how I abused it. At normal dose or spacing out, I dont see how it would cause any problems, unless you were sensitive or allergic to this type of drug. It's not like it's some breakthrough drug, it's just like a mild trip and roll at the same time. It has a trippy element in the sense that you cannot stop laughing at points. But there are no visuals.

But if people are doing RC's they should be safe. There's a reason I haven't died doing as many as I have. It's because I drink plenty of water. That is the most important thing. And I don't overdose. But yeah it's stupid to mix a bunch of shit together, I don't recommend anyone do that. Some people do, but obviously that is going to be the biggest risk of all, rather than if you just took 5-IT alone. Also weed helps with side effects from drugs, so a smart person would have some kind of downer handy just incase. Weed is natural and safe and counts as a downer. Weed is everything in one, but not too intense with any of it's effects. It is not possible for a human to overdose on weed...and there are no deadly drug interactions with it either. God was the best chemist. But yeah, if you worry about 5-IT, then shouldn't you worry also about MDMA and every thing else out there? From what I understand MDMA is still too new as well to know the long term side effects. We already know 5-IT has little to no bad side effects in the short term. So what makes 5-IT the culprit here? And when I was saying not to do it around anyone, I was talking about the combo I did...lol. 5-IT alone does not really make you annoying and is not cracked out like the combo I did. I would attribute the crackedoutness to the fleph and mdpv/4-fma...and definitely not to the 5-IT. The combo I did was surely toxic, no doubt...but still, your body will heal itself if you allow it to. Even cirrhosis can be healed if you drink plenty of good water and eat certain foods. It's a big business though for them and liver transplants so that is why they would never tell us it can be cured. Anything in the world can be healed if you believe in spiritual healing. That is a whole different story though, and I understand 99% of the world doesn't believe or know how to practice that sort of thing. But just drink a lot of water if you're not doing so already. You should notice a difference (positive) pretty quickly. Make sure it is good water. Don't cheap out on the price. Water is the main thing you put in your body so make sure it's good water like FIJI or even better than that. Most health food stores carry good water. You can tell if it's good when you drink it, if it leaves your mouth dry after you sip it, then it's toxic, so avoid it, as it won't hydrate you enough.


As for how safe 5-IT is, I was meaning if people dont abuse it, I dont see how it would kill you. That's what I meant. When you don't abuse things, usually they don't cause problems. So most likely 5-it will be safe for anyone who uses it reasonably. There have been tons of reports and no problems with anyone who took a normal dose. I think if 5-IT is unsafe, then 6-apb has to be considered unsafe as well, and even more so just because people are reporting a lot more problems/side effects with it. Normally the more dangerous the drug, the more side effects, right? Or am I wrong there?
 
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^^ Weed is not a downer. It may have a sedating effect/sedative properties, however many people - including myself - have had to stop smoking it because of paranoia, panic attacks, etc. I'm not trying to vilify weed - in fact, I know it's a huge help for patients who either have issues with appetite and stomaching food. It also has been found to have analgesic properties from what I understand, which is great.

Also, it's good that you drink plenty of water, however, drinking too much water can kill you (kind of hard to accomplish sober) when you're on certain psychotropic drugs such as mdma.

Apart from eating a healthy diet and drinking a lot of water to flush out toxins, a good supplement to take - in my opinion - if you have suffer from cirrhosis is milk thistle.

I believe in spiritual healing - but you're right, because it contradicts science, many simply do not/will not believe in it. However, that's another topic of discussion.

I spend a lot of money on bottled water - in fact, for the past few years, I've switched from drinking tap water to drinking only bottled or distilled water and it leaves my mouth dry not too long after I drink it. Normally I would be concerned, however, I'm on certain Rx meds which are known to cause dry mouth.

I don't which is safer, 5-IT or 6-ABP. I'm not too crazy about RCs. Many psychotropic drugs - Rx or recreational - tend to be used daily by millions for at least couple of decades (give or take a couple of years) before the long term effects are known. That's roughly how long it took Bayer before they realized that heroin - which was marketed as a cure for morphine addiction - was in fact more addictive than morphine. That's roughly how long it took before benzodiazepines - which were initially marketed as a non habit forming replacement for barbiturates - were found to be dangerous to go off of cold turkey due to physical dependency.

Anyways, if you choose to continue using 5-IT, your choice but take care of yourself man.
 
Paddington said:
Sweden has a sharia-like policy of zero tolerance on drugs making people place all illegal drugs under the same label, and believing that whats legal cant really be that harmful. Users/non-users are treated the same way; get a "drugabuser" label and you are disqualified for everything, socially and in law, more or less.

A positive urine test in sweden can get you to jail and will likely stop you from getting a qualified job since its on your record and 50% og the employers use the right to get a criminal record along your CV.

The repressive laws force people into RCs to protect their future abilities to act in society. And the kids are not believing the info since they are used to scare tactics. A real mess and almost undiscussable topic here.

So here we go, with likely hundreds of users just in sweden doing a drug that might be a real nice one, but in a worst case scenario they are tapering of to hospital without anybody noticing on the boards.
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Well I guess this might explain why we always seem to see the first deaths occurring in Sweden for every new RC that comes along :( what a horrific side effect of zero tolerance drug prohibition.
 
ro4eva said:
^^ Weed is not a downer. It may have a sedating effect/sedative properties, however many people - including myself - have had to stop smoking it because of paranoia, panic attacks, etc. I'm not trying to vilify weed - in fact, I know it's a huge help for patients who either have issues with appetite and stomaching food. It also has been found to have analgesic properties from what I understand, which is great.

Also, it's good that you drink plenty of water, however, drinking too much water can kill you (kind of hard to accomplish sober) when you're on certain psychotropic drugs such as mdma.

Apart from eating a healthy diet and drinking a lot of water to flush out toxins, a good supplement to take - in my opinion - if you have suffer from cirrhosis is milk thistle.

I believe in spiritual healing - but you're right, because it contradicts science, many simply do not/will not believe in it. However, that's another topic of discussion.

I spend a lot of money on bottled water - in fact, for the past few years, I've switched from drinking tap water to drinking only bottled or distilled water and it leaves my mouth dry not too long after I drink it. Normally I would be concerned, however, I'm on certain Rx meds which are known to cause dry mouth.

I don't which is safer, 5-IT or 6-ABP. I'm not too crazy about RCs. Many psychotropic drugs - Rx or recreational - tend to be used daily by millions for at least couple of decades (give or take a couple of years) before the long term effects are known. That's roughly how long it took Bayer before they realized that heroin - which was marketed as a cure for morphine addiction - was in fact more addictive than morphine. That's roughly how long it took before benzodiazepines - which were initially marketed as a non habit forming replacement for barbiturates - were found to be dangerous to go off of cold turkey due to physical dependency.

Anyways, if you choose to continue using 5-IT, your choice but take care of yourself man.
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Well weed is a downer, an upper and a mild hallucinogen all combined into one drug. So it has some properties of each. But yes I do know what you mean by the panic attacks. I think there is some kind of reaction that goes on between heavy MDMA use and smoking weed. Because me and several friends had to literally stop smoking pot, due to this extreme tightness in the heart area. I was told it was anxiety, but it felt like I was dying or having a heart attack when I'd smoke, so I was basically forced to quit because I couldn't handle that. And I was a major pothead too back then so I figure it had to be a connection with the overdose we had which contributed to the weed causing anxiety attacks.

As for too much water when you're rolling...you're correct about that. Some people go craaazy when they roll and drink an insane amount. I've personally drank 1 gallon in less than 1 hour to pass a drug test before, and on another occasion I drank like 10 bottles of water in like 30 mins (Was running short on time..lol) and that cleaned me out big time. So I'm not sure what the overdose level is, but you would indeed have to be insane to OD on water. Not too common, but my recommendation would be 1 glass of water per hour, or just take small sips throughout the night. That's what I do. I have no problem pissing on MDMA, like some people do(which could be dangerous if you drink water too quickly). That is probably due to my tolerence from using it so much over the years...or the shit is just weaker. I remember in the 90's, I would go all night rolling without being able to piss... And I always drink alcohol too, which dehydrates you even more.

As for milk thistle...yes it's a great supplement. I've taken it before. You can survive much longer with cirrhosis if you take it. But it's not the best cure, and it won't cure the cirrhosis, it will just improve quality of life and extend it. In order to completely get rid of the cirrhosis, it can take up to 20 years or more depending on how advanced it is. Or as little as 2 days. It's just your body's way of "keeping itself alive at all costs" by putting a shiny film over the organs to keep you hydrated. This is why water is the simple (And only) cure for cirrhosis. Also some good foods to anyone suffering from this disease would be radishes(eat the stems too and the leaves if possible), white radishes, dandilion greens, turmeric(spice)...these are just a few of things that can treat cirrhosis in combination with water and a healthy lifestyle/diet. If you have gotten alcohol induced cirrhosis, you must stop drinking the alcohol, or it won't go away. So basically, eliminate the cause, and virtually anything will heal on it's own.
 
amanitadine said:
Reason. Logic. Empiricism. Where hast thou gone?
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Clearly not to the following poster.

The King of Beans said:
I don't know...I'd ask the devil what he did with all that stuff?
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Not trying to be offensive but in all seriousness...

If your not familiar with reason, logic or empiricism then perhaps you should reconsider dispensing advice pertaining to potentially dangerous substances?

Just a thought.

I haven't posted in quite some time but reading some of the statements made in this thread & the fallacies contained within them I felt it pertinent that I do so.
 
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