National love service? (Cure for incels)

[SKL]

TBH I'm glad someone called me out on it because I realize now what it could be taken as in context.

 

[tathra]

My bad then for posting something that understandably could be taken in that meaning. That sincerely was not my intent. I was thinking more in terms of relational difficulties, and someone wondering why someone sounds like a lifetime partner would "only" come by ever 4-5 years, and then missing that person when they go have more vapid and promiscuous sex.

I was basically trying to emphasize how rare it is to find someone that you're that compatible with. even if I say "one in a million", that's just a cheesy cliche, or a number so large most people can't really picture it. that you should expect to be looking for years before you find them is simple, easy to understand, and suggests that all you need to do is keep hope and keep looking (which in my case was absolutely true, more than once). luck plays a huge factor ofc in finding them, and if they're single when you find each other, etc. but this also isn't like a "soul mate" - if you miss them, oh well, theres others that you're highly compatible with, or you might run into that previous person again after they become available if they weren't before (personally I've had mutual attractions that simmered for more than a decade before we finally got together, and another that was over a year before anything happened between us)

 

[SKL]

I do want to apologize to the OP tho because I don't think he knew the context and implications of the term "incel", and here come us political junkies hijacking the thread

I think not. His language and thought process mark him as "that kind" of incel in terms of attitude towards sex and women if not towards violence. Government sanctioned prostitution is something that has currency in Incel circles (don't ask me how I know this. I enjoy reading Encyclopedia Dramatica), and the idea that sex will "cure" incels is, as I alluded to above, part and parcel with the idea that incels have that they have a problem which will be cured by having sex. There are two problems here (a) more likely, they will have sex if they cure their problems; (b) the idea that everyone is going and having random sex and this is part of having a fulfilling life: very often it is the opposite: the promiscuous are probably more often than not severely unfulfilled. Promiscuity and inceldom are kind of opposite sides of the same coin of our post birth control, post sexual revolution pathologies. The incels however view the opposite kind of pathology as being normal.

I was basically trying to emphasize how rare it is to find someone that you're that compatible with. even if I say "one in a million", that's just a cheesy cliche, or a number so large most people can't really picture it. that you should expect to be looking for years before you find them is simple, easy to understand, and suggests that all you need to do is keep hope and keep looking (which in my case was absolutely true, more than once). luck plays a huge factor ofc in finding them, and if they're single when you find each other, etc. but this also isn't like a "soul mate" - if you miss them, oh well, theres others that you're highly compatible with, or you might run into that previous person again after they become available if they weren't before (personally I've had mutual attractions that simmered for more than a decade before we finally got together, and another that was over a year before anything happened between )

I guess I'm conflating my idea of a life partner with your idea of uncommonly explosive sexual attraction. I agree these are two different things which may not overlap in all cases. Although I'd hasten to point out that basing all of your relationships on sexual desire alone is not a winning strategy.

 

[dopamimetic]

I've always been hunting out for the soulmate, like you can buy random sex for some bucks at every other street but love you can't buy with any money ... unfortunately girls tend to separate sexuality and soulmatism, at least to my experience.. so I am left over with soulmates but no sex ... not the worst, but not the best either..

 

[JessFR]

I've always been hunting out for the soulmate ... unfortunately girls tend to separate sexuality and soulmatism, at least in my experience.. so I am left over with soulmates but no sex ... not the worst, but not the best either..

This could be a topic all of its own. It's fascinating to me how men and women generally have different attitudes about this kinda thing.

Something I heard long ago, dunno where, is that someone did like a survey based off that show cheaters. About how people reacted when they discovered their significant other was cheating.

And they supposedly found that most men first asked "are you having sex with him?" while most women asked "do you love her?".

Dunno if it's true, but sounds plausible to me. Men frequently seem so much more attached to sex than women. But of course there are always exceptions.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

"Soulmates" is rubbish. There are many people who can possess the qualities you are looking for, not just one person. I don't believe in a soulmate anymore, but someone highly compatible. One person won't have every single thing you're looking for.

The sex has to be great. Sex isn't everything, but it's a huge part. One of my ex's would always cum too fast and I was left feeling unsatisfied. I'd always rationalize like "but he's so nice..." blah blah (and really he wasn't the nicest person in the end anyway). If the sex isn't fulfilling, you gotta move on. Learned that lesson.

 

[tathra]

and the idea that sex will "cure" incels is, as I alluded to above, part and parcel with the idea that incels have that they have a problem which will be cured by having sex.

they are't exactly wrong, but they're not right either. they're confusing sex with connection and intimacy. you can use sex as a substitute for intimacy but it's a poor match so you'll still be left unfulfilled and wanting

you absolutely can use sex as a stop-gap to help restore confidence if you've been in a long drought from intimacy, but sex will never be a proper substitute for connection, intimacy, self esteem, and loving yourself. sex is a means, a means to share fun and intimacy with a partner, not an end in and of itself

 

[dopamimetic]

you can use sex as a substitute for intimacy but it's a poor match so you'll still be left unfulfilled and wanting

Thats true indeed and think many people fall for it.

Yeah I know about guys and sex and all, I am the exception to confirm the rule it seems... currently I'd anytime choose a cuddly day with a soulmate girl over a fuckin night, Just waitng for both to match ... :/

a means to share fun and intimacy

Very true too. I don't get it how to use that new quoting mechanism though,

 

[JessFR]

"Soulmates" is rubbish. There are many people who can possess the qualities you are looking for, not just one person. I don't believe in a soulmate anymore, but someone highly compatible. One person won't have every single thing you're looking for.

The sex has to be great. Sex isn't everything, but it's a huge part. One of my ex's would always cum too fast and I was left feeling unsatisfied. I'd always rationalize like "but he's so nice..." blah blah (and really he wasn't the nicest person in the end anyway). If the sex isn't fulfilling, you gotta move on. Learned that lesson.

That may be the case for you, but it isn't the case for everyone or every couple.

I do believe in the concept of a soul mate, I just don't think of it so much as one person you have to find, but rather one person who will become that after you find them.

Regardless though. I'd rather have no sex and be with the person I love, than unlimited great but meaningless sex, and not have that person.

 

[tathra]

One person won't have every single thing you're looking for.

I used to think that until I found my current partner. she is quite literally every single thing I find attractive all rolled into one person. it's like my absolute perfect fantasy woman walked out of my dreams and into my life, I shit you not

 

[SKL]

Something I heard long ago, dunno where, is that someone did like a survey based off that show cheaters. About how people reacted when they discovered their significant other was cheating.

And they supposedly found that most men first asked "are you having sex with him?" while most women asked "do you love her?".

Dunno if it's true, but sounds plausible to me. Men frequently seem so much more attached to sex than women. But of course there are always exceptions.

Sounds completely true. Two different kinds of possessiveness. One of which is sort of objectifying and one of which is emotionally based.

they are't exactly wrong, but they're not right either. they're confusing sex with connection and intimacy. you can use sex as a substitute for intimacy but it's a poor match so you'll still be left unfulfilled and wanting

Sex is a poor substitute for intimacy because in our society the only intimacy in sex is often physical, and the kinds of intimacy that the human soul hungers for are substantially different from the dopamine hits the body craves. Those exist only to make us want to have babies. Sex is ridiculous, it looks ridiculous, sounds ridiculous, smells ridiculous. The only possible reason for it is to make babies, and babies are inconvenient. Sex is so appealing because on an evolutionary basis we need to enjoy doing something ridiculous to get something inconvenient. The intimacy bit from an evolutionary perspective is to provide a good environment for said babies. Once sex is decoupled from reproduction, all that remains is the striving after the physical act of intimacy, and a confused emotional intimacy that results from removing the act from it's natural correlate.

you absolutely can use sex as a stop-gap to help restore confidence if you've been in a long drought from intimacy, but sex will never be a proper substitute for connection, intimacy, self esteem, and loving yourself. sex is a means, a means to share fun and intimacy with a partner, not and end in and of itself

If the incels went and had sex, do you think it would help their fundamentally deranged attitude towards sex and women? Plenty of men have sex who have deranged attitudes towards women. The phenomenally autistic readings of "sexual economy" and the crazy vocabulary of incels really differs only in degree of derangement and infelicity. I'd argue that the deranged attitude towards sex is a substantial part of why both the promiscous and the incel will never be fulfilled in terms of interpersonal intimacy.

Random thought: if incel was coined by a lesbian and is now the sole property of creepy men, why are all these men heterosexual? Where are the gay incels? Do they not exist due to gay sexual practices or are they just less vocal? Or is it just because it is easier to "other" women?

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Regardless though. I'd rather have no sex and be with the person I love, than unlimited great but meaningless sex, and not have that person.

Absolutely! Usually the guys I've been with who are the best in bed, turn out to be the biggest assholes. When I'm ready to date again, I'm trying to find a good man who can also throw down in the sack. Haha That's not easy to find...

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

I used to think that until I found my current partner. she is quite literally every single thing I find attractive all rolled into one person. it's like my absolute perfect fantasy woman walked out of my dreams and into my life, I shit you not

I'm happy for you! Maybe there's hope for me one day.

 

[negrogesic]

I used to think that until I found my current partner. she is quite literally every single thing I find attractive all rolled into one person. it's like my absolute perfect fantasy woman walked out of my dreams and into my life, I shit you not

Man i need this in my life. I find it very easy to find willing participants insofar as relationships are concerned but hard to find someone i both like and want...

Is brilliant and beautiful really too much to ask?

 

[SKL]

Absolutely! Usually the guys I've been with who are the best in bed, turn out to be the biggest assholes. When I'm ready to date again, I'm trying to find a good man who can also throw down in the sack. Haha That's not easy to find...

Some of the biggest assholes are the self-declared "nice guys who can't get laid" though. Probably because they're on the other end of the same psychopathic equation as the hypersexual guys.

 

[CoastTwoCoast]

Some of the biggest assholes are the self-declared "nice guys who can't get laid" though.

That's true too. Assholes come in all kinds of packages. That's why I'm happy being celibate now... Don't have to worry about trying to weed them out at this point. It's so annoying and tedious.

 

[morpher001]

back in the day it was easier to find a partner because woman had to rely on men for almost everything - women couldn't have bank accounts, couldn't own property, etc. this systemic misogyny is still rampant everywhere and affects almost everyone.

now that women can choose their partners based on who they actually want to be with instead of societal pressure, everyone is having a hard time with dating, both men and women, because finding someone with the kind of compatibility that basically forces you to be together - you start talking and organically end up in each others' pants and a relationship before you realize what happened - is extremely rare. you're lucky if you find someone like that once every 4 or 5 years. and a lot of women dont want to settle for someone that's only mostly compatible because they're still enjoying their newfound autonomy. and there's also the issue that women are still being murdered for rejecting men, good women get tricked into abusive relationships and get extremely damaged (if they're even ever able to escape), and so forth

so it's not just men that are having trouble adjusting to how things are now, but blaming women and being a fucking dirtbag and all the misogynistic shit incels do is not the response of a healthy individual. women are wise to avoid red flags when they see them, and incels are a walking bundle of red flags

and no, woman do not want drama or men toxicly acting out because of their fragile masculinity. get the fuck on outta here with that shit, incellus prime

The real problem is the notion that compatibility of that kind exists, anywhere other than on a pedestal in minds of people with unrealistic expectations.

All you actually need is someone who genuinely cares about you as human being.

Women dont like drama you recon? Yes they do.

You seem rather bitter in your attitude toward men btw.

 

[JessFR]

Sounds completely true. Two different kinds of possessiveness. One of which is sort of objectifying and one of which is emotionally based.



Sex is a poor substitute for intimacy because in our society the only intimacy in sex is often physical, and the kinds of intimacy that the human soul hungers for are substantially different from the dopamine hits the body craves. Those exist only to make us want to have babies. Sex is ridiculous, it looks ridiculous, sounds ridiculous, smells ridiculous. The only possible reason for it is to make babies, and babies are inconvenient. Sex is so appealing because on an evolutionary basis we need to enjoy doing something ridiculous to get something inconvenient. The intimacy bit from an evolutionary perspective is to provide a good environment for said babies. Once sex is decoupled from reproduction, all that remains is the striving after the physical act of intimacy, and a confused emotional intimacy that results from removing the act from it's natural correlate.



If the incels went and had sex, do you think it would help their fundamentally deranged attitude towards sex and women? Plenty of men have sex who have deranged attitudes towards women. The phenomenally autistic readings of "sexual economy" and the crazy vocabulary of incels really differs only in degree of derangement and infelicity. I'd argue that the deranged attitude towards sex is a substantial part of why both the promiscous and the incel will never be fulfilled in terms of interpersonal intimacy.

Random thought: if incel was coined by a lesbian and is now the sole property of creepy men, why are all these men heterosexual? Where are the gay incels? Do they not exist due to gay sexual practices or are they just less vocal? Or is it just because it is easier to "other" women?

Well in my experience, and by experience, I mean stereotypes I saw on TV. Gay men never seem to have trouble finding other gay men for sex.

And TV wouldn't lie to me...

 

[tathra]

Sex is a poor substitute for intimacy because in our society the only intimacy in sex is often physical

there's also the massive problem of toxic masculinity's insistence that anger is the only emotion men are "allowed" to show, so men become convinced that sex is the only source of intimacy. there are many more and more fulfilling ways to be intimate - I've told my partner I want to put her makeup on her, paint her nails, bathe together, wash each other in the shower, even brush her teeth (google "monogatari toothbrush scene" ehehe), as well as shit like go to protests and firebomb concentration camps

so inceldom is deeply rooted in toxic masculinity, which is acting out to protect one's fragile masculinity. the fix here is to teach men that their masculinity isn't contingent on following some arbitrary checklist of "how to be a man", to teach men that it's ok to cry, that it's ok to hug and hold other men's hands, that it's ok to dress however you want (dresses too) and even wear makeup if they want. teach men that it's ok to be human

 

[tathra]

The real problem is the notion that compatibility of that kind exists, anywhere other than on a pedestal in minds of people with unrealistic expectations.

I'm exceptional in many other ways so I guess I shouldn't be that surprised if I'm also exceptional when it comes to being a good boyfriend